The Royal Navy Discussions and Updates

AndrewMI

New Member
I disagree. The long term future of the country is not served by running a huge budget deficit. All through this new government we are seeing radical proposals to address 21st century problems (except in protected expenditure areas) but not the MoD which seems very quickly to have fallen into its usual game of name calling with the Treasury - and this after only a few months of the new government.

Dr Fox is beginning to look very out of touch with his cabinet colleagues and the spat between him on one side and Cameron/Osborne on the other will have severe consequences for the influence of the MoD in government. This isn't going to result in any kind of victory for Dr Fox.

It's all very depressing. Perhaps we should rename the MoD "The Ministry of the Defence Manufacturers Association" as it is their interests, rather than those of service personnel, that it seems most concerned about protecting.

We need to take a radical look at the actual threats this country is likely to face in the near future and how quickly more serious threats (like high end state on state warfare) are likely to evolve. From that we can make decisions about the readiness we need high-end capabilities to maintain.

In this instance, is a continuous at sea deterrent needed? If not then can we make do with 3 or even 2 boats and reconstitute CASD when serious threats evolve? If CASD is needed then does it need to be a specialised boat with 16 tubes or can/should we consider a hybrid designed based on a 'stetched' Astute with fewer missiles carried?

The Royal United Services Institute paper on deterrence (currently sitting on their home page at RUSI -) makes interesting reading.

WillS
I take your points, however the first thing to remember is that Strategic weapons are a political rather than military tool.

It is therefore the politicians who decide whether we should have them and whether we should use them. It is also right that they should also be the ones to pay for them out of central funds and not to divert money from other "military" projects.

The second point is, do we want "Nuclear Weapons" or do we want a "Nuclear Deterrent". We currently have a deterrent, the distinguishing factor being this CASD that you point out. This makes me feel secure. I know that whilst we have this, no country would do, or allow to be done from its soil, a major attack on the UK that would change our way of life. Specifically because of the damage that could be done in retaliation. The fact that we would almost certainly do nothing is irrelevant. the important thing is what we might do, and there is no realistic way of stopping what we might do.

All of these things disappear when the CASD is stopped. There is a huge incentive for state and non-state actors alike to strike first. Similarly, the policy of "strategic ambiguity" that we have pursued would be destroyed. Should there be an incident, the media would swarm around Faslane to see if a Trident (or successor) boat would sail. Imagine the reaction if it did. It would certainly not help a peaceful resolution to the incident and politically who would have the bottle to make such a public show of force? They would genuinely be white elephants then.

It is therefore CASD or nothing.

The third thing is, the threats we face. Currently we are faced with a large terrorist threat, for which Nuclear weapons are essentially useless. In the future it is thought that we will face a large threat from cyber terrorism/attack. Again, nuclear weapons are largely useless in this respect, other than as a last resort (think EMP). However, there is clearly a threat from such states as Iran and North Korea developing nuclear weapons. There is no reason to doubt that they will eventually perfect these systems and also, there is no reason to suspect that in response or otherwise other states will not follow suit. It would therefore be irresponsible to drop our own deterrent in these uncertain times. The major reason there has been little action taken over the sinking of the Cheyhan (spelling?) is that North Korea possess nuclear weapons. Should Iran start acting in this manner would we really want to be in a position where we could not fight fire with fire? All the conventional forces in the world are no good when they could lob a nuclear weapon at the UK in response. If we give this up it will take decades to re-establish. When world events are changed over the course of days and weeks that is an unacceptable risk.

Finally, there is the political status of the UK. Giving up the nuclear weapons would de-legitimise ourselves as a world power. Of course, we are not as significant as we once were, but are still regarded as a major player. By stepping back from the nuclear club and accepting that we are not prepared to meet the cost of guaranteeing our own security means we cannot guarantee anyone else's. I doubt Cameron would want to be remembered for such a backward step.

In Summary, I respect people's view about not wanting to renew Trident, or scaling it back etc. However all of these arguments have far stronger counter arguments to them. The only factor that has made this an issue now is money. If our security depends on a choice of funding Afghanistan, of a Trident successor - it is a no-brainer.

I think that is the real decision Osborne is trying to force Fox to make.
 

swerve

Super Moderator
Cutting down on escorts is quite feasible if you remove the single unit taskings they are lumbered with (like drug smuggler chasing in the Caribbean or pirate interdiction off the horn of Africa - tasks for which high-end frigates are entirely unsuited). Stick a few RFA's out there with helicopters and CIWS. Do we really need to carry the operational cost of deploying a Seawolf/Harpoon armed frigate to chase untrained, drugged-up chancers in speedboats armed with RPGs?

Will.
How many helicopter-capable RFAs do you think we have, & what'll do their jobs while they're chasing smugglers? How do we replenish our warships, if the replenishment ships are being used as OPVs?
 

WillS

Member
The second point is, do we want "Nuclear Weapons" or do we want a "Nuclear Deterrent".
You correctly note that there's a difference between having nuclear weapons and an effective nuclear deterrent. There is also a difference between having nuclear weapons and an intercontinental first-strike capability, a difference that both North Korea and Iran would have to overcome before becoming a nuclear threat to the UK homeland (though not before becoming a threat to UK interests*).

I'd love to renew Trident with a 4 boat replacement but I suspect that economic conditions mean that the replacement system for Trident will be built on the assumption that we can move from weapons to deterrent faster than an adversary can move from weapons to first-strike. Of course this depends on effective intelligence, and we've certainly seen huge failures on that front which don't inspire confidence.

There are other alternatives.

1. Life Extension

Nobody has yet managed to explain to me why the Vanguards can't undergo a life extension. The US is planning to keep the similarly aged Ohios in service for 10 years longer than we're estimating the Vanguards can last. Our boats aren't that badly built :) I suspect the pace of the decision is being dictated by the desire to start SSBN replacement at the end of the Astute production line (to keep the drumbeat going). Slow down the pace of the Astute builds and you could delay a replacement decision for another 5 years minimum (at least until the end of Trident's expected life end in 2030). Hopefully we'd have some cash then AND the threat from new nuclear states would by that time be scary enough to persuade both politicians and public that this isn't something we can afford not to have.

2. Mini-CASD

Why not a stretched Astute with 4 missiles (32 warheads) as per one of the RUSI suggestions? Probably cheaper (I have no idea what the design costs would be) and 32 warheads at sea all of the time should be enough to deter any rational adversary that doesn't have C&C spread out over an area the size of the old Soviet Union (& if they aren't rational, then no deterrent would be effective).

I sincerely hope that you are right in your suggestion that Osborne is trying to force a choice between a Trident replacement and Afghanistan. Handling the terrorist threat from that place with intelligence resources backed by special forces strikes seems a better bet than sitting 10000 troops in the middle of a medieval mess and expecting them to build a coherent country from scratch.

WillS

* I think there's a real chance of the reality of an Iranian bomb being dealt with by other Gulf states in a 'robust' manner before it becomes a existential threat to us. The thought of a radical Shia government with anything more than a showpiece nuclear capacity is one that Sunni Gulf States would not tolerate.
 

WillS

Member
How many helicopter-capable RFAs do you think we have, & what'll do their jobs while they're chasing smugglers? How do we replenish our warships, if the replenishment ships are being used as OPVs?
OK, I'm being a little flippant ;-)

However, I could answer your questions by saying:

1. RFA's already accompany escorts on regular single-task missions (south Atlantic patrol and the Caribbean cruise being examples). Last year one of the Bay's stood in for a frigate in the Caribbean and the year before that (I think) US Coastguard helicopters and personal deployed to one of the Wave's in the Caribbean and used it as a platform. So this already happens. The RFAs are already in use in this role, just not exclusively. We wouldn't be taking them away from other tasks ..... much.

2. Most RFA's (except Diligence) are helicopter capable, although admittedly you have to build a large shed on the back of the Bays to make maintenance work properly. The two most recent Forts were designed to operate 5, Argus can operate, well, lots :)

Additionally, the designs waved around for the MARS program show ships with decent copter capacity. And we have to build at least some of the MARS vessels before one of the Leafs runs aground and the media cotton on that they're not double-hulled.

And if there is a shortage, how do we replenish warships? Well on joint-ops we'd do what everyone does and pool resources as available. And if that's not realistic then, when faced with a choice between deploying a carrier/amphib group on a matter of great national importance or showing the flag in the carribean/chasing pirates, we do the former.

I can't find the figures at the moment but I recall that France makes do with substantially fewer RFA-equivalent, of course this may be due to the proliferation of overseas colonies they can still drop in on for a top up.

WillS.
 

Sampanviking

Banned Member
I think the RUSI raise some genuine issues and ones which I had not really given much thought to before; mainly on account of Internet Defence Forums and Nukes rarely lead to productive destinations.

The CASD question is a central one and given the cost of maintaining, one that needs a very compelling answer to justify keeping.

So where is the clear and present danger that will come out of nowhere and require an instantaneous response?

I find the argument that any strategic deterioration in the UK's security will not come as a bolt out of the blue and give plenty of time to prepare compelling. In addition, if a rogue state or non state actor was prepared to use such a device would the UK still qualify as a priority target?

In any event would we have a clear enough indication of origination or responsibility to warrant a immediate response?

Remember the most dangerous aspect of a nuclear armed rogue state is that they can hide these weapons until most of their country (all major cities) are occupied before firing them at enemy territory. Who then would you target by response?

I do agree that simply to have and be able to deploy these weapons quickly at need is going to be sufficient to provide a perfectly sufficient deterrent. To that end the duel use sub is probably the most realistic option.
 

WillS

Member
Interesting, maybe not as commercially naive as we think. It really annoys me that the Russians/Israelis are all over the huge India market and France is helping Brazil with their steps to SSNs
Me too. Hopefully this is part of the new 'commercially aware' MoD people have been talking about - helping industry sell when they can't sell to us.

WillS

The nine most terrifying words in the English language are, 'I'm from the government and I'm here to help.' - Ronald Reagan.
 

1805

New Member
Looks like the 30 year old Tornado will be sacrificed rather than the GR9's in the up and coming savage cuts, which has to be good news for the future carrier programme. Estimated savings 7 billion rather than 1 billion if the GR9's went. This will leave Typhoon as the primary UK/Falklands CAP resource and GR9 for A-Stan and deployed aboard Invincible and QE (hopefully) until the first F35B's arrive. The loss of the GR9's would have been a catastrophic blow for both the Fleet Air Arm and RAF making the argument for two new QE's very difficult to justify because of the time lag between the loss of GR9 and arrival of F35B.

The Tornado age factor coupled with the potential savings on manpower / maintenance costs make this, under the circumstances, the best outcome. I doubt the UK will ever use/buy a two seat operational fighter/bomber ever again. According to the Times, all three defence chiefs reckon the move is a sensible one based on threat and financial belt tightening.

I don't know why the press keep mentioning the T45, the six are practically paid for. The only way they would be ditched is if the Government paid-off the entire ARG and carrier replacement. They exist for one reason - area defence of the latter. If the T26 order is reduced then I would hope any spare change would be invested in upgrading the 45's to enable them to undertake more general tasks (Harpoon, AsW torpedo, some form of basic towed AsW system).

My doom and gloom forcast for the future:

1 x Active QE, second held in reserve, or as a Commando Carrier. Ocean sold off when PW commisioned.
80 x F35B tranche 1 (future buy put on hold pending economic factors)
ARG - 2 x Albion & 2 x Bays (2 sold off), Enough to support a single Commando ++
6 x T45
8 - 10 x T26
6 - MCM/Corvette C3 vessel
4 - 6 Civi contractored RFA manned tankers
2 x New replenishment ships
6 - 7 x Astute SSN
3 x stretched ASTUTE SSBN 'lite'
I think you will be spot on the numbers. The sad thing for me is if the money had been spent more wisely we would have far greater numbers and a healthier ship building industry.

The important thing now is the T26 is right on the money and a compelling proposition ie:

Very flexible in equipment fit/engines
Low cost
Cheap to run

It needs to blow FREMM out of the water on all of the above. What would success look like? A basic fit of say £100m (near a huge OPV) ranging to a heavy say £400m (a full multi role AWD). it would be great to see c12 RN ship and 12-18 exports.

And failure? excessive gold plating resulting in a £400m, no exports, programme stopped at 6 ships and a cut down ship built in equally limited numbers.
 

Hambo

New Member
There is a huge amount of room with the UK to develop a uniform class of ship with its EU/NATO neighbours to protect both the North Sea/Baltic and the Atlantic Approaches. If a shooting war with an external opponent, ever did break out, the benefits of uniformity would very quickly become apparent.
But Sampviking, there isnt a huge amount of room. Most of the major naval EU powers have already found their own solutions for the next 30yrs. These programs are already being built. Unless the French are going to suspend FREMM, the Dutch and Germans their new vessels, the Spanish the F100 etc to design a new eurofrigate, then there is very little scope for joint effort, that ship sailed a decade or two ago. NATO tried a joint venture, it doesnt work.

The fact is national requirements dont syncronise, individual fleets age at different cycles, hence by the time T23 goes out of date, current designs such as FREMM will be 15 yrs old so the RN will want something newer.

National interests take over, the French wanted a bulk of workshare in Horizon, they wanted the controlling hand in fighters, hence Rafale and Eurofighter went different ways. I cant see the french ever agreeing to being a minor partner in a colaborative project if it meant the workshare going to UK shipyards/aircraft factories. We might have got a fair deal with the Dutch, Germans or French.

There is scope for shared capacity. Europe should do more in defence, if the political will was there. Pooled fleet of Rotterdam type transports, pooled fleet of C17 (which we already have), pooled licence built Chinooks, a pool of Airbus tankers and lots of them. Spain, Italy and the UK could even create a "euro" F35B wing, sharing training costs.

I would also be in favour of some EU rapid reaction brigades. There should be a minimum defence percentage of all GDP's that EU nations should agreee to pay, increased from now to give the combined numbers of European armed forces the ability to deploy much further. Then bring in a rule that 5-10% of each budget goes into the combined pot to buy combined resources, spread the workshare by all means. Eg Any surplus Typhoons get stored, If Britain goes to war outside of EU commitments? It merely "loans" any required kit from the central pool, the same for missiles, 155mm ammo, mine resistant vehicles etc etc

I dont think you can get over the hurdles of each country protecting its own jobs but an alliance of 500m people should have a far more powerful military than we currently have. There are lots of infantry units, lots of different fighter fleets, probably lots of duplication. The EU could do worse than aiming to create a clone of the US Marine Corps.

Sooner or later as China and India grow, the EU will need to shape up militarily, there may need to be 4 superpowers, USA, India, China and Europe and Europe may well include Russia and Turkey.
 
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1805

New Member
1805; Look at a map. Look at Britain's involment with Europe, tradewise, politically and securitywise.
And Plz understand that the EU with 500M+ customers is British firms's home market. and that could also be the case in defense-industry.

If you can do buisness with other countries that's really good, but get your priorities straight. First comes first.
I agree with you, but it is difficult to do deals with countries which have similar industrial capability. India is a growing market, will be a massive power in 20 years its important to build relationships early (we are already late). US has shot themselves in the foot by their childish addiction to sanctions.

As an example if we wanted to develop a replacement MBT, Germany & France will not drop theirs and and the production run will not be huge with all of Europe, countries will still buy US. India will potentially have a bigger requirement and will have a positive impact on the design...preventing the UK over specing!! India also brings high quality and cheap IT development which will only increase as a % of content.

Sweden tried very hard to build a Scandinavian defence zone, but Norway and Denmark were very luke warm
 
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deepsixteen

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
I agree with you, efforts have been made to sell them once built, but I think there is scant evidence exports were in the mind of the RN when ordering them. Actually the T42 were the last exported so maybe it was not penny pinching that have hit exports. I would think you are near to the mark with the extreme focus, lack of flexibility and excessive cost compared to other designes available in the market place both cheaper and more expensive.
The exported type 42’s went to the Argentinean junta hardly an organisation with a rep for sound judgment you should get this the type 42 in the cut down form (TREASURY DRIVEN) originally produced for the RN and the Argentineans was an under armed inadequate design.
 

deepsixteen

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
Get this right the UK armed forces are not underfunded, if they chose to waste half of it, I don't think it is unreasonable for the tax payer to call a halt and ask people to be accountable.
So the falling percentage of GDP around 2.3% as I understand it with no reduction in commitments is a positive is it? Coupled to the unreasonable adding of the deterrent to the defence budget (back door defence cut) which has always been funded separately isn’t creating underfunding of the forces? I’ll have a pint of what you’re on. I do agree that things could have been done better in the past and we need to ensure we get best value but your political chums are in danger of throwing the baby out with the bath water having finally got a decent program on the go and having offered up everything possible to get the carriers let me predict that the condems next term in the political wilderness will make thirteen years look short term if they ----up the defence industrial base and the jobs that go with it. While I acknowledge that the services don’t get it right all the time you need to understand the level of political interference that has existed in the procurement process.
 

deepsixteen

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
What?! We had a referendum in 1975. I voted in it. Look it up. It was very decisive. You're objecting on the wrong grounds. EU membership is the only association we have had a vote on.

We didn't have a referendum on union with Wales, or Scotland. Do you object to being a citizen of the UK, because you've never had a chance to vote on it? Should we have a vote every generation? Should every US state vote regularly on whether to remain part of the USA? And what if one year, there's a majority for separation? Should it be taken as final? Should this regular voting be one-way only?


Common market good on the occasions when the French follow the rules political union major changes to constitution without referendum bad and unfair just about everyone in Europe got a vote on it but us, it did not happen because practically the entire country would have voted against it.
 

gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
To me that doesn't sound like a plan for a healthy shipbuilding industry, to me it more sounds like an employment plan for shipbuilding workers and engineers otherwise unemployed.

The entire idea that you can have an healthy industry with one single customer (goverment) is wrong and will fail. You can, depending on size of wallet, keep the patient alive in that way, but you (taxpayers) will pay in terms of more expensive products.

A few years back when the RN and UKGovt called in the USN and NAVSEA to assist with fixing up the Astutes, the US Dept of Commerce conducted an industry assessment on the UK maritime industry.

This was done to identify some of the problems that led to the problems that the UK had with fixing some of the design issues - a classified version of that report was provided to the UK and USGovt and to Aust.

The key punchlines that rang bells for australia as well as the UK was that our shipbuilding industries were at risk as soon as there was only a single customer - commercial advantage could not be realised in an articially sustained (Govt order) environment.

Unfort submarines are one of those platforms where you don't have private customers to absorb some of the sunk development costs, some of the tech developments (although both passive and active array tech is now being used in other areas). Govts therefore have to make a strategic decision to wear the hurt and absorb any unnatural costs that come along. Its made worse by the fact that outside of the US and Russia, most other countries do not have shipbuilding entities with both skimmer and sub building capability - so the skills base gets challenged as well
 

deepsixteen

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
You correctly note that there's a difference between having nuclear weapons and an effective nuclear deterrent. There is also a difference between having nuclear weapons and an intercontinental first-strike capability, a difference that both North Korea and Iran would have to overcome before becoming a nuclear threat to the UK homeland (though not before becoming a threat to UK interests*).
I'd love to renew Trident with a 4 boat replacement but I suspect that economic conditions mean that the replacement system for Trident will be built on the assumption that we can move from weapons to deterrent faster than an adversary can move from weapons to first-strike. Of course this depends on effective intelligence, and we've certainly seen huge failures on that front which don't inspire confidence.

There are other alternatives.

1. Life Extension

Nobody has yet managed to explain to me why the Vanguards can't undergo a life extension. The US is planning to keep the similarly aged Ohios in service for 10 years longer than we're estimating the Vanguards can last. Our boats aren't that badly built :) I suspect the pace of the decision is being dictated by the desire to start SSBN replacement at the end of the Astute production line (to keep the drumbeat going). Slow down the pace of the Astute builds and you could delay a replacement decision for another 5 years minimum (at least until the end of Trident's expected life end in 2030). Hopefully we'd have some cash then AND the threat from new nuclear states would by that time be scary enough to persuade both politicians and public that this isn't something we can afford not to have.

2. Mini-CASD

Why not a stretched Astute with 4 missiles (32 warheads) as per one of the RUSI suggestions? Probably cheaper (I have no idea what the design costs would be) and 32 warheads at sea all of the time should be enough to deter any rational adversary that doesn't have C&C spread out over an area the size of the old Soviet Union (& if they aren't rational, then no deterrent would be effective).

Having served on both Polaris and Trident SSBN’s I would not be overly confident that the Vanguards could be SLEP’d, I always felt that the Polaris were the better built boats just an opinion on how they felt to me (something akin to being on Hermes and then Invincible)not a comment on the viability or otherwise. I do see that it would be good if it could be done to bring us more into line with the USA’s replacement timeline especially if it produces another SSN to maintain the beat.

Placing nukes on a vessel that shares a signature with an SSN risks blurring the line what if a country who is perhaps a little paranoid like say NK detects a conventional Astute thinks trident first strike Astute and decides to launch its missiles? Nuclear deterrence needs to be separate from defence it prevents ----ups.
 
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1805

New Member
The exported type 42’s went to the Argentinean junta hardly an organisation with a rep for sound judgment you should get this the type 42 in the cut down form (TREASURY DRIVEN) originally produced for the RN and the Argentineans was an under armed inadequate design.
This really is nonsense about the cut down armament. The T42's armament compares well to the ships they replaced (Counties/T82). OK the cutting down made them poor sea boats, but the issues with Sea Dart were poor radar. Sea Wolf was not a wonder weapon it performed indifferently in the Falklands and had ridiculous space requirement, completely incompatible with the requirements of the ships it was designed to protect. These two facts almost guaranteed it would not be sold to other navies in meaningful numbers.

If the RN had been given more funds it would have been better off matching Sea Dart to a decent radar earlier than dreaming of fitting Sea Wolf.

If the T42 were so poor why have they served so long and outlived younger ships?
 
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1805

New Member
So the falling percentage of GDP around 2.3% as I understand it with no reduction in commitments is a positive is it? Coupled to the unreasonable adding of the deterrent to the defence budget (back door defence cut) which has always been funded separately isn’t creating underfunding of the forces? I’ll have a pint of what you’re on. I do agree that things could have been done better in the past and we need to ensure we get best value but your political chums are in danger of throwing the baby out with the bath water having finally got a decent program on the go and having offered up everything possible to get the carriers let me predict that the condems next term in the political wilderness will make thirteen years look short term if they ----up the defence industrial base and the jobs that go with it. While I acknowledge that the services don’t get it right all the time you need to understand the level of political interference that has existed in the procurement process.
In absolute terms and in % of GDP the UK is in the top tier of defence spending. The future nuclear deterrent is some way off, the current mess is largely of the services chiefs doing. Cut the waste out and there is plenty of money. Lest hope if only one good thing comes out of this messy, it is a new realism in the MOD.
 
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deepsixteen

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
The exported type 42’s went to the Argentinean junta hardly an organisation with a rep for sound judgment you should get this the type 42 in the cut down form (TREASURY DRIVEN) originally produced for the RN and the Argentineans was an under armed inadequate design.[/QUOTE

This really is nonsense about the cut down armament. The T42's armament compares well to the ships they replaced (Counties/T82). OK the cutting down made them poor sea boats, but the issues with Sea Dart were poor radar. Sea Wolf was not a wonder weapon it performed indifferently in the Falklands and had ridiculous space requirement, completely incompatible with the requirements of the ships it was designed to protect. These two facts almost guaranteed it would not be sold to other navies in meaningful numbers.

Going from a ship with layered defensive systems to a one trick pony with outdated radar was not good. Look at the ships post Falklands why do you think they were rewired, gained new radar, strengthening and future ships regained the designed length and critically CIWS were installed. These changes have created a ship that has served the service well over the years Politicians did and do influence the design of warships not least by controlling the budget if Healy and that generation of politicos had not spent all the money and messed up the economy (sounds familiar) do you think the initial 42’s would have been built as they were.
If the RN had been given more funds it would have been better off matching Sea Dart to a decent radar earlier than dreaming of fitting Sea Wolf.

Agree about the radar but they would have had more joy with a larger more flexible design which might have sold more with some form of inner layer defence

If the T42 were so poor why have they served so long and outlived younger ships?
Because they evolved and had the many faults rectified.
 

deepsixteen

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
In absolute terms and in % of GDP the UK is in the top tier of defence spending. The future nuclear deterrent is some way off, the current mess is largely of the services chiefs doing. Cut the waste out and there is plenty of money. Lest hope if only one good thing comes out of this messy, it is a new realism in the MOD.
You are a politico you ignored the question, I know that GDP reflects well in comparison with some but it is decreasing and adding trident to the defence budget is a back door cut.,
 

swerve

Super Moderator
You are a politico you ignored the question, I know that GDP reflects well in comparison with some but it is decreasing.,
British GDP decreased in 2009. It's growing again now.

The only other years since 1960 in which it decreased were 1974, 1975, 1980, 1981 & 1991.
 

1805

New Member
Going from a ship with layered defensive systems to a one trick pony with outdated radar was not good. Look at the ships post Falklands why do you think they were rewired, gained new radar, strengthening and future ships regained the designed length and critically CIWS were installed. These changes have created a ship that has served the service well over the years Politicians did and do influence the design of warships not least by controlling the budget if Healy and that generation of politicos had not spent all the money and messed up the economy (sounds familiar) do you think the initial 42’s would have been built as they were.
If the RN had been given more funds it would have been better off matching Sea Dart to a decent radar earlier than dreaming of fitting Sea Wolf.

Agree about the radar but they would have had more joy with a larger more flexible design which might have sold more with some form of inner layer defence

If the T42 were so poor why have they served so long and outlived younger ships?

Because they evolved and had the many faults rectified.
The T42 took the place of the T82 which didn't have layered defence. The Counties were nice looking ships, but a disaster for the RN. Both Sea Slug & Sea Cat were completely hopeless, even for the threats they faced at the time; leaving this ships virtually undefended. The BBC did a Panorama programme in the 60s on how poor they were, which the MOD tried to suppress. With their big crews, steam plant and being unable to defend themselves let alone others, the RN could not wait to get ride of them.

The T42 did actually achieve exports (if you exclude minesweepers the last new RN designs?). Had the deal with the Dutch on Broomstick gone ahead, they would have had decent radar. BTW the RN did not fit better radars as a result of the Falklands; the Batch 2 had them and performed better than the Batch 1.

On Sea Wolf record, both T22 where damaged by aircraft that where so close, there is little doubts if an Exocet had been fired at them, they would have had no more chance of survival than a T42. The later pairing with T42s did not deliver any better results, just done out of desperation.

The T42 stayed in service because they had something the T22 did not have, a powerful area missile.

There are many things that could have improved the T42 at far less cost, than fitting Sea Wolf. If they had not fitted the 4.5” and instead installed an OTO 76mm and a Phalanx, you would have improved top weight and capability significantly.

Sea Wolf as a design was very poor, this was a point defence system that took up so much space it required a ship larger than the Batch 1 T42. It proved almost impossible to retro fit, condemning ships to go to war with inadequate air defence. They adopted old trainable launchers, because they didn’t have the confidence to be in the lead. Yes money was tight but this was poor design, and the lack of export was a big no confidence vote.

I have said before, in view of the tight funding the RN would have been better off not developing Sea Wolf and focusing getting Sea Dart right, and buying or even developing their own Gatling CIWS, which could have been retrofitted more easily.
 
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