The army has asked for a number of programs in order of priority, so in actual fact they are not foregoing the condor replacement just to get attack helicopters, the problem with local news reports is that they only carry part of what the Chief was saying as I was at the press briefing which went on for 2 hours so a lot more was said than was reported, unfortunately most of the media solely focused on the attack helicopters, the Chief actually stressed that the 8x8 program and Condor replacement is of priority to the army. We shouldn't look as if the military doesn't understand it's priorities as they actually do but what the government decides is another matter entirely. Also given the 10th plan stretches for a five year period, the military, based on my discussions with them, are putting the request in hope that funding will be available around 2013 once the economy improves and the elections are done with.
Royal Malaysian Navy (RMN) update
- Thread starter Ding
- Start date
Thank you for your feedback, much appreciated as always.
As a major defence deals at the moment would be political suicide for the government given that the country faces a whole set of other problems, would it be safe to say that even the Nuri replacement and 2nd batch of NGOPVs will be after the next elections?
Yes, the main stream media's incompetence in reporting on defence matters transcends national boundaries. Click this link for a giggle. Evidently, the Straits Times (the Singapore newspaper of record) thinks that the RSN stands for Royal Singapore Navy... lol... I would like to know who is our King.
For the avoidance of doubt, the common terms are:
RSN = Republic of Singapore Navy
RSS = Republic of Singapore Ship
There was a disagreement a while back in the feedback section of an aviation mag about the RSAF being the Royal Saudi Air Force and not the Republic of Singapore Air Force, and vice versa 
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With regards to public awareness and interest in defence, I think Singapore is way ahead of Malaysia,largely due to people participating in NS. An added factor is that having served in NS, Singaporean politicans and members of the media would have a better clue of what they're talking about compared to those in Malaysia.
. With regards to public awareness and interest in defence, I think Singapore is way ahead of Malaysia,largely due to people participating in NS. An added factor is that having served in NS, Singaporean politicans and members of the media would have a better clue of what they're talking about compared to those in Malaysia.
Singapore is way ahead because they earned more and spend more. their annual gross income already surpass our country and they allocate a bigger piece of the already bigger pie just for defence. Plus they don't have an amount of corruption that we have which means they get more for less. Just look at the NGPV fiasco. Our defence budget are already low, and it was shaved further by inefficiencies and corruptions.There was a disagreement a while back in the feedback section of an aviation mag about the RSAF being the Royal Saudi Air Force and not the Republic of Singapore Air Force, and vice versa
With regards to public awareness and interest in defence, I think Singapore is way ahead of Malaysia,largely due to people participating in NS. An added factor is that having served in NS, Singaporean politicans and members of the media would have a better clue of what they're talking about compared to those in Malaysia.
If you want to look at modern Sparta, look at Singapore.
There's a whole host of other reasons. In addition to spending more on defence and having a far more serious outlook on defence, they also have smaller operational comittments at home. Another advantage is the SAF has a far greater say in determining what to buy with it's recommendations carrying more weight. In Malaysia on the other hand, political and other 's***e' reasons like 'industrial offsets'' and ''transfers of technology'' [almost all of which have had nil value] are the determining factor in choosing what to buy and from whom.
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Don't forget the commission fee. reminiscent of the Lockheed F-104 scandal.
In a Bernama report the Chief of RMN said the focus is to upgrade its patrol vessels, get 3 LCS's, 3 support ships and 6 ASW helicopters. This is the first time there is mention of an LCS and perhaps could mean the RMN has dropped its plans to get Lekiu Batch 2's. He also said that the target was for a support ship with up to 18,000 tonnes. Though he mentioned upgrading 'patrol vessels'' I have no idea what he meant as he said they would be handed over to the MMEA. Or perhaps the Malaysian reporters have misquoted, yet again... ::::teary
The RMN had previously said that it was happy with the Super Lynx and that from a logistical viewpoint it would make sense to for additional Lynx's rather than a new type.
If the intention as stated is to get ASW helis, the RMAF IMO would be better off with a longer range plaftorm [granted, this will cost much more], and one that has space for sonarbuoys and gear, unlike the Lynx.
The RMN had previously said that it was happy with the Super Lynx and that from a logistical viewpoint it would make sense to for additional Lynx's rather than a new type.
If the intention as stated is to get ASW helis, the RMAF IMO would be better off with a longer range plaftorm [granted, this will cost much more], and one that has space for sonarbuoys and gear, unlike the Lynx.
There's been a bit more reported with regard to those support ships. It sounds as if it may be envisaged that they could take on some of the roles previously performed by the amphibious ships.
Armed forces to get 3 support ships worth RM2.2bil
Armed forces to get 3 support ships worth RM2.2bil
You can easily get three ships for USD660 mn, but probably not Dokdo clones. Although I don't know what Dokdo cost, I can't imagine it being quite that cheap.
The UK bought four Bay class LSDs (16200 tons full load, fairly small dock, no hangar - smaller & simpler than Dokdo) for £485 million, i.e. £121 million each (USD175 mn), at 2005 prices. That included a huge cost overrun on two of them, built by one shipyard, which closed immediately afterwards. Korean shipyards are cheaper than British. Scaling down & simplifying Dokdo might bring it down to that price.
Also - does the 2.2 bn ringgit include all costs, or just the ships?
I think the price quoted in the article is for only the ships. But don't be surprised if the actual price later escalates. There's a Malaysian owned shipyard in South Korea that will probably be involved should the Koreans get selected. I'm surprised that cash has been allocated for 3 ships, I would have expected only a pair. The Chief of the RMN publicly said a few months ago that the Dokdo was too big for the RMN needs and that berthing space would be a problem given the size of the RMN's bases. Having just awarded France a contract for Scorpene's, I really doubt if it will get a contract for the Mistral. Another possibility is the Galicia, which was the first design to be offered when the RMN issued a requirement for a multi-role supply ship in the late 90's. Then again perhaps the reports that a scaled down Dokdo will be chosen is true. I fully agree that these ships should be logistics orientated given the RMN's operational requirements. The shipyard you mentioned that closed down, was in Swan Hunter?
It will be interesting to see what self-defence suite is chosen for these future ships. As these are high value assets and the RMN in times of conflict won't be operating under the kind of of umbrella given to NATO/EU ships, I'm hoping these ships will be armed with more than just a 76mm/20mm gun and chaff launchers. A RAM launcher would be nice but then again, the pen pushers at the Malaysian MoD and Finance Ministry will looking for ways to save cash.
Another question is where the RMN will get the manpower to operate these 3 ships as given it's size, I would expect manpower to be a problem, given the recent entry into service of the 2 Scorpene's and 6 Kedah OPVs.
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Yes
Depends on what sort of ships are bought. The Bay class has a crew of 60, which is enough for a logistically-oriented austere LSD. At that rate, you could man the lot with the crew of Inderapura.
But start fitting more self-defence gear, an embarked aviation group, etc. & that will go up fast.
2.2 bn ringgit is USD660 mn. That's almost what the UK paid for four Bay-class LSDs - and two of those cost 50% more than the other two. If all built on the Clyde, we'd have got 'em for safely less than that.
The Makasars are dirt cheap, but need twice the crew of the bigger Bay class. Whether they're a good buy depends on your crewing costs. For Indonesia, I'm sure they're on the right side of the equation, as they would be for, e.g., the Philippines. Malaysia is a richer, higher-wage country. Maybe, maybe not.
The Makasars are dirt cheap, but need twice the crew of the bigger Bay class. Whether they're a good buy depends on your crewing costs. For Indonesia, I'm sure they're on the right side of the equation, as they would be for, e.g., the Philippines. Malaysia is a richer, higher-wage country. Maybe, maybe not.
My concern about the Makassar class, and perhaps I'm being too picky here :, is whether they are built to commercial standards. Given their low cost, what are their damage control standards like? I'm not running down the Makassar class, I think its perfect for the TNI-AL and a great improvement over the ex-East German Frosch class LSTs.
As for the RMN, I guess we have to wait and see, but given the size of the Malaysian defence budget and the immediate requirements of the army and air force, I'm very skeptical that there is enough funding for 3 ships. Apart from the multi-role supply ships, the RMN also wants additional helicopters and a follow on batch to the Kedah class.
:, is whether they are built to commercial standards. Given their low cost, what are their damage control standards like? I'm not running down the Makassar class, I think its perfect for the TNI-AL and a great improvement over the ex-East German Frosch class LSTs. As for the RMN, I guess we have to wait and see, but given the size of the Malaysian defence budget and the immediate requirements of the army and air force, I'm very skeptical that there is enough funding for 3 ships. Apart from the multi-role supply ships, the RMN also wants additional helicopters and a follow on batch to the Kedah class.
Ananda
The Bunker Group
My concern about the Makassar class, and perhaps I'm being too picky here
As for the RMN, I guess we have to wait and see, but given the size of the Malaysian defence budget and the immediate requirements of the army and air force, I'm very skeptical that there is enough funding for 3 ships. Apart from the multi-role supply ships, the RMN also wants additional helicopters and a follow on batch to the Kedah class.
Sturm, based on what I gather in here from PT Pal open sources..Makasar class LPD basically a modullar design. It's a design based on commercial one however build on naval standard. In sense it's in principe was not much different with manufacturing HMS Ocean (as example).
Before going with South Korean, actually TNI AL also already got offer from the Dutch on Rotterdam design (although the smaller derivatives). However the South Korean offer much better deal compared the basic Roterdam derivatives that the Dutch offered.
In Sense the Makasar design can be made to include much more automation (something that TNI AL reject due they do not have much manning problem), different set of electronics and weapons modules, more powerfull machineries, different set modulles for higher NBC standard...thus if you do that you will have a NATO standard LPD.
In fact the last two of the class (build by PAL) is having slightly better weapons and engines due different modulles was put from the First three build in South Korea.
If I'm not mistaken Singapore offered a bit water down versions of their LPD to Thailand, in the area of less automation modules (since like TNI AL Thailnad also do not have significant problem on manning).
In the end it's the matter of costs. However modern LPD design like Roterdam, Galicia, Singaporean LPD. and South Korean's Makasar can be equiped with whatever modulles that you prefered. It's just which builders will provide better deal to you.