PAK-FA / T-50: Russian 5th Generation Fighter

[Haavarla]

Bloddy hell!

Do they have two flyable prototype??

 

[localhost127]

The Side and Front look pretty good as far as X-band Radar wave are concerned.

can you go into more detail how you are coming to this conclusion? and what specifically are you looking for when regarding to X-band? thx

 

[Feanor]

So to add a few things. First off the current nose and cockpit from what I understand are straight from an Su-27. I.e. the final ones will look different. This should also put the size of the fighter a bit more in scale. Thirdly, it wasn't even flying with it's production engines. It was flying with 117 engines. The actual engines for it are still underdevelopment, and seem to have hit some issues that they're trying to resolve. In other words, this is an early prototype. The RAM, the sensors, the radar, the cockpit, the landing gear, the weapons bay, are all still under development. We don't even know for sure what kind of payload it will be able to carry.I would hold your criticism (or praise) until we have something more specific.

Skolzkiy from what I understand MiG-35 production will commence after 2015. Until 2015 there is expected to be significant MiG-29K production (total 49 for India, and 24 for AVMF). It will be relatively impressive enough if MiG meets the production deadlines for the Ks. The MiG-35 itself is still technically not finalized.

EDIT: There is one flyable prototype as far as I know. Or in other words. Only one prototype flew.

 

[Haavarla]

EDIT: There is one flyable prototype as far as I know. Or in other words. Only one prototype flew.

Well how do you explain the different tail section on those two pics?
Is it PS at work?


Thanks

 

[Haavarla]

can you go into more detail how you are coming to this conclusion? and what specifically are you looking for when regarding to X-band? thx

Yup.

Look at the comparison pics of the F-35 and Pak-Fa further above.
First off, the F-35 is slated to be pretty much X-band stealthy, is it not?

Look from the very nose all the way back to the air inlets, its canted curves right?
No round oval featuring there.

Under the wing the Air inlet tunnels sems to also have canted curves all the way back to the very engine, not like the Su-27. Right?

The fuselage over the wing does have some degree of round or oval featuring, but hey!
So does both the F-22 and F-35. Wich are optimized for incoming X-band radar waves..

Its better with more straight surfaces vs any oval or round surfaces protruding out everywhere from the airframe. Or so i'm told.


Thanks

 

[Haavarla]

Arc Light;189356]Yes, Havaarla! Su-27, Su-47 and MiG MFI airframes combined gave Russians better airfame than F-22 has at 10% of its cost. Very interesting...these Americans are naive people!

However you forgot about materials used to build PAK-FA fuselage. It is almost certain Russian do not have advanced RAM or simply they cannot afford it due to ridiculous PAK-FA project fundings. Yet this is crucial issue because lack of proper stealthiness will disqualify any fighter as 5th generation fighter. Note I do not mention anything about non-existing now Russian counterparts of advanced Western systems like:

Wait a minute here, pls explain to me how you know wich metod and quality of the RAM that Sukhoi will used on the Production series?

- AESA-LPI radars including multi-antenna systems

- advanced FLIR/EW systems like PIRATE, EOTS, DAS

- integrated countermeasures systems like SPECTRE, Barracuda

- jet engines with supercruise capability like F119

As we all know Russian/Soviet avionics was always behind Western products.

Again, this is a prototype. They will no doubt consentrate on the Fly-by-wire flight controls, the engine and basicly aerodynamics handelig for now.
I tought this was obvious..
Why use a trillion rubels on the very first prototypes.
There will be more of them in time. Call it Pre-production or prototypes, don't care.

In effect they will get in say 2020 a fighter that will be outclassed by Western designs and stealth UCAVs. I suppose it will be on par with Chinese J-XX fighter and Gripen NG but due to its huge unit cost of 100 million USD PAK-FA won't be introduced into RuAF service in adequate numbers. Note F-35 will be significantly cheaper because of its large customer base of thousands planes.
All that means Russia will get small amount of mediocre fighter as almost sole combat aircraft because at that time all remaining aircrafts made during Soviet times will be scrapped. On the other hand their derivatives like Su-34 and Su-35 will be severely outdated and also not present in large numbers. In sum RuAF numerical strength will shrink to about 300 combat planes dispersed on vast Russian landmass which is inadequate level of security. Many small and medium size countries will have numerically stronger air forces (Turkey, Israel, Japan, European NATO powers) not mention about US and China. I think this is rather certain because twenty years long process of not acquiring new planes is not make up for lost time

Thank you for posting a lot of claims, but nothing but claims.
Feel free to show us the final price tag, or how the Gripen NG will handle the T-50?

The Su-34/35 will be serverly outdated..? wich timeframe are you talkin about here?
The Russian MOD has allready stated that the total aircraft in the RuAF inventory will shrink in the future, nothing new here.
In fact you have nothing new at all to bring to the table..


Thanks

 

[vitalivr4]

And what did you expect?

Do you really think that poor and technologically degraded Russia together with backward India can build 5th generation fighter similar to American F-22 and F-35?

The truth is simple - US spent about 150 billion dollars for ATF and JSF programs combined. Official Russo-Indian sources mentioned 8-10 billion dollars overall funds allocated to PAK-FA project. I think the answer is simple - Russia and India cannot design and develop many crucial elements of stealth fighter such as radar absorbing materials, advanced avionics, engines and so on due to tiny financial and technical base. Sukhoi chef designer stated today that PAK-FA project will take even ten years to complete because there is no funds and technology available to continue developing of mentioned systems. That is why PAK-FA tactical and technical characteristics will be severely cut-down. In effect if this plane ever become reality it will be much worse than American stealth fighters and even modernized European planes. Hindu data indicate this is fully accepted because the same sources gave PAK-FA expected RCS value equals to 0.5 m^2 which is comparable with twenty two years old Gripen achievement and much worse than Rafale (0.1 m^2 ) or Typhoon's (0.05 m^2) RCS not mention about F-22/F-35 level (0.001-0.0001 m^2). This is simply ridiculous to call PAK-FA flying mock-up equal to proven and mass produced Western designs. I suppose in 2020 PAK-FA will be able to compete with Chinese "stealth" fighter called J-XX project now. This is aviation league where Russia, India and China can play right now and for foreseeable future. However they should prepare themselves for Western stealth UCAVs then.

All this mass-media loud noise about PAK-FA is simply propaganda campaign aimed at Russian internal public. "Yes! We catch-up Americans right now! We are superpower once again because we have 5th generation stealth fighter equal to F-22 and nothing else!" - one can hear in Kremlin controlled media. Obviously this is the main reason behind "Russian 5th generation fighter" story. I suppose we can see another PAK-FA mock-up during Red Square parade this year!

OMG you should listen to yourself. Where did you get all that information?

 

[SpudmanWP]

That prototype is clearly front-specific RCS reductions. The biggest problem with side RCS is the tunnel. The 90 degree angles (where tunnel meets engine) are a BIG no-no.

The lower and upper round engine nacelles are also a BIG no-no.

 

[F-15 Eagle]

Just curious how many missiles is the T-50/PAK-FA designed to carry, and what is the performance and power of the engines compared to the F-35?

 

[localhost127]

Yup.

Look at the comparison pics of the F-35 and Pak-Fa further above.
First off, the F-35 is slated to be pretty much X-band stealthy, is it not?

Look from the very nose all the way back to the air inlets, its canted curves right?
No round oval featuring there.

Under the wing the Air inlet tunnels sems to also have canted curves all the way back to the very engine, not like the Su-27. Right?

The fuselage over the wing does have some degree of round or oval featuring, but hey!
So does both the F-22 and F-35. Wich are optimized for incoming X-band radar waves..

Its better with more straight surfaces vs any oval or round surfaces protruding out everywhere from the airframe. Or so i'm told.


Thanks

i was asking what particularly (specifically to x-band, as you stated) are you looking for/at? the explanation you provided seems true for all aspects of radar wavelength (speaking on a very basic level)...but what specifically is done for x-band?

 

[plasmahawk]

can you go into more detail how you are coming to this conclusion? and what specifically are you looking for when regarding to X-band? thx

Same plane, its a little air brake or the drag chute release, that opened at landing.

 

[Feanor]

Arc Light go easy on the claims. You clearly have strong opinions. Now back them up with sufficient factual argumentation. (which won't be easy )

Why you think the Su-27SM, Su-25SM, or Su-24M2 will be at the end of their service life by 2020 I'm not sure. The same goes for the Su-34, Su-35S, MiG-29SMT, MiG-31BM, and MiG-29K all of which have already entered service, and most of the programs are continuing along-side production of newer types. The situation with the VVS is not good, but it's certainly not disasterous.

Also a vague statement about first pre-production models used for pilot re-training in 2013, from Putin. I'm not sure how much stock to put in it.
Lenta.ru: Îðóæèå: ÏÀÊ ÔÀ ñîâåðøèë ïåðâûé ïîëåò ñ íîâûìè äâèãàòåëÿìè

 

[Feanor]

Arc Light go easy on the claims. You clearly have strong opinions. Now back them up with sufficient factual argumentation. (which won't be easy )

Why you think the Su-27SM, Su-25SM, or Su-24M2 will be at the end of their service life by 2020 I'm not sure. The same goes for the Su-34, Su-35S, MiG-29SMT, MiG-31BM, and MiG-29K all of which have already entered service, and most of the programs are continuing along-side production of newer types. The situation with the VVS is not good, but it's certainly not disasterous.

Also a vague statement about first pre-production models used for pilot re-training in 2013, from Putin. I'm not sure how much stock to put in it.
Lenta.ru: Îðóæèå: ÏÀÊ ÔÀ ñîâåðøèë ïåðâûé ïîëåò ñ íîâûìè äâèãàòåëÿìè

 

[Bonza]

Will the IR-signature be as good as the F-22A? Nope.
Who cares. Its not that big improvment anyway.

Perhaps you would like to provide a source, or failing that at least provide your logic, for stating some knowledge of the relative IR improvements gained by an F-22-type engine nozzle.

Please don't take this as rude, but if you are going to call other posters out for sources and for making unsourced claims (as you did with Arc Light) then please subject your own posts to the same levels of rigour.

Lets move on to the Nose And Cockpit, very much like F-35 & F-22. Is this a bad thing? Nope. Beside the 'Been there, done that' is very much the rule here. It is not possible to make this any better than LM approach. If so, pls let me know?

I would think the IRST ball located in front of the cockpit is going to have RCS implications.

The Side and Front look pretty good as far as X-band Radar wave are concerned.

I'd like a lot more clarification on this point besides your already stated reasons, please. There are a number of features (no chines, rounded engine bays, IRST as mentioned above) that are going to have negative effects on the aircraft's RCS. That's not really a concern - attaining the required level of RCS reduction is the primary concern and if it does this, more power to it - but your assertions that the sides and front "look pretty good as far as X-band radar waves are concerned" and your explanations of how you reached that conclusion have not touched on any of the features that will increase RCS, including the ones I've mentioned (and there may be more that I can't pick out).

Again this isn't an attempt to be rude but I would point out these features will be a concern in terms of RCS reduction.

 

[the road runner]

Just saw some footage of the PAK FA T-50 and thought you guys may like to see it

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=22fN4fVoFdY&NR=1"]YouTube- Broadcast Yourself.[/ame]


Also some more footage.........

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qxWZiSdWvns"]YouTube- Broadcast Yourself.[/ame]


To me,the back of the Aircraft looks like a Sukoi Su-27/30,while the front section looks similar to a Mig 27.The wings remind me of Boeings version of the JSF.


Regards..

 

[OPSSG]

Guys, most of you are very familiar with what is expected, so please, please play nice. Kindly treat others as you would want to be treated. Go ahead and express your views but back them up with facts and links where appropriate.

As more pictures appear, we'll have a clearer idea of structure of the front and rear of the aircraft. I might be wrong but there seems to be chines and edge alignments that is geared towards the frontal RCS aspect but such similar features are lacking in the rear.

Anyway, I'm providing a link to an article on Aviation Week by Bill Sweetman - 'T-50: A Preliminary Analysis'. I'm sure many of you have read it and for the newbies lurking and reading, it's a starting point for more reading.

 

[Aussie Digger]

Yup.

Look at the comparison pics of the F-35 and Pak-Fa further above.
First off, the F-35 is slated to be pretty much X-band stealthy, is it not?

Only in the minds of Air Power Australia and this is only done to support their "Battlefield Interdiction only" design rubbish.

No credible sources have ever suggested the F-35 is "only" designed to provide VLO in X Band frequency ranges.

Of course no credible source would dare to suggest they can "infer" the RCS of a production fighter by viewing photographs of the outer mould line of a pre-production aircraft either...

 

[Rish]

However you forgot about materials used to build PAK-FA fuselage. It is almost certain Russian do not have advanced RAM or simply they cannot afford it due to ridiculous PAK-FA project fundings. Yet this is crucial issue because lack of proper stealthiness will disqualify any fighter as 5th generation fighter. Note I do not mention anything about non-existing now Russian counterparts of advanced Western systems like:

I'm not taking sides, but just to give you a heads up the advanced RAM developed by LM had many quality control problems of its own. I'm sure there are a couple members on this very forum that can elaborate in more detail then i ever could.

 

[webmaster]

First of all, everyone involved in this thread need a reminder:

http://www.defencetalk.com/forums/rules.php

Read everything, if you need a translator, let me know.

2nd, go back and read the last few pages of this thread, is that how civilized people debate and discuss maiden flights or even fighter aircraft?

Arch Light, you need to learn how to debate without calling names and throwing insults. It does not help your point of view at all, it only highlights your prejudices. Is that worth it when you are trying to convince the other side? Hell no.

Funts, calling him a bigot doesn't solve or prove anything.

We have two options now that this thread is locked and under mod discussion:

1. Keep it locked and BAN the offenders from both sides of the argument.

2. We somehow get our civility back and learn to debate like adults and not 10 year olds!!!

What is it going to be? You have few days to decide.

Thanks and enjoy

 

[gf0012-aust]

This post has been closed subject to Mod discussions.

A few of you are skating on unseemly behaviour...

I'd suggest that people have a good look at their tone and content with respect to the Forum Rules and then go and self edit.

In 24hrs time we'll choose the right to edit those we regard as unacceptable.

Time to cool down folks