PAK-FA / T-50: Russian 5th Generation Fighter

[webmaster]

Thread opened again.

The trouble maker, Arch Light has been sent to sin-bin. Please keep your discussions as technical as possible with proper references/source of your claims. And most importantly, BE RESPECTFUL to each other even when there is disagreement.

thanks and enjoy!

 

[Feanor]

So back to the topic at hand. The program cost of the PAK-FA program is currently estimated at around 12-14 billion USD, with an additional 8-10 billion for the FGFA. Given that the program is far from over, and still needs work many vital systems, it's quite likely that costs will rise further.

Lenta.ru: Îðóæèå: Ïëîñêàÿ ëÿãóøêà

Additionally the plane flew with it's own new engines, not the 117S. This may be the reason for the initial delay, as the Su-27M flying test-bed only flew with the new engines on Jan. 21.
Additionally the engine nozzles will be different. There is speculation that the airplane will feature radar arrays in not just the nose, but also in other parts of the plane.

In other words what we see today is a very early prototype. given the amount of work that remains to be done, I strongly suspect there will be additional delays.

 

[Herodotus]

All right so I have a few questions.This is a fifth generation fighter and not a 4.5 generation, but is it a peer competitor to the Raptor? Granted it is not slated for usage until 2013 so I assume it is possible that its specs/designs could change, how could/should this plane look like in 2013?

Also I read that Russia is slated to build 200+ PAK T-50s for its fleet and India will also have 200+ so just wondering if the US decision last year to cap the number of Raptors was premature, or does it matter? Or can the Russians not get the planes out that fast? Thanks all.

 

[Ananda]

So back to the topic at hand. The program cost of the PAK-FA program is currently estimated at around 12-14 billion USD, with an additional 8-10 billion for the FGFA. Given that the program is far from over, and still needs work many vital systems, it's quite likely that costs will rise further.

Lenta.ru: Îðóæèå: Ïëîñêàÿ ëÿãóøêà

Additionally the plane flew with it's own new engines, not the 117S. This may be the reason for the initial delay, as the Su-27M flying test-bed only flew with the new engines on Jan. 21.
Additionally the engine nozzles will be different. There is speculation that the airplane will feature radar arrays in not just the nose, but also in other parts of the plane.

In other words what we see today is a very early prototype. given the amount of work that remains to be done, I strongly suspect there will be additional delays.

Agree, just crusing around with official russian and sukhoi's statements..from what i'm reading also indicated the radar, the avionics on productions series was not included in this prototype..yes this is like the T 10 before emerfing as flankers. Very sure that the nose and the front sections wil be quite different in productions versions.

But heck..why so many quarrels on this..even YF 22 was different on the exterior with F 22.

 

[Wall83]

So back to the topic at hand. The program cost of the PAK-FA program is currently estimated at around 12-14 billion USD, with an additional 8-10 billion for the FGFA. Given that the program is far from over, and still needs work many vital systems, it's quite likely that costs will rise further.

Lenta.ru: Îðóæèå: Ïëîñêàÿ ëÿãóøêà

Additionally the plane flew with it's own new engines, not the 117S. This may be the reason for the initial delay, as the Su-27M flying test-bed only flew with the new engines on Jan. 21.
Additionally the engine nozzles will be different. There is speculation that the airplane will feature radar arrays in not just the nose, but also in other parts of the plane.

In other words what we see today is a very early prototype. given the amount of work that remains to be done, I strongly suspect there will be additional delays.

Did it relly fly with the new engines?

 

[nevidimka]

Ok, great thing the thread is reopened. It just shows how easily can a thread be locked by a newcomer.

First things first. It looks very good. It actually has more resemblance with the YF23 than the F 22. It looks like a YF 23 update of today's times. The crane like neck is a legacy of the flankers and i like it. its higher nozzles at the back gives it a very nice look from the back when on ground.

Also those wheels are HUGE!. the double tyres were meant for heavy planes in the flanker/Foxhounds, but why is it neccessary with the PAK FA? Isnt the PAK FA supposed to be a lighter than flanker series plane? Plus by reducing the wheels they can actually save weight and gain more space internally.

Regarding the engine inlets, it seems direct to the ine of sight of the engines. Is it direct or is there chins inside to block the view from front?

ALso from what Ive been reading, this plane still has alot of modifications , so this is not the final look. There is a tender for a sigle frameless glass canopy which i feel is a must.

Also stealthy engine nozzles as well as russian method of cooling its exhaust gasses.

plus all those riveting would/should be covered by the RAM coatings which are said to be made using NANO technology due to its better qualities/ability.

ALso what indeed is that conformal thing below the wing where the win meets its body? Its seems to small for a missile as someone suggested, but looking at the area beside the engine inlets which is taken by the huge wheels, i dont know where else the side bays can be.

 

[plasmahawk]

Also stealthy engine nozzles as well as russian method of cooling its exhaust gasses.

ALso what indeed is that conformal thing below the wing where the win meets its body? Its seems to small for a missile as someone suggested, but looking at the area beside the engine inlets which is taken by the huge wheels, i dont know where else the side bays can be.

Privet/Hi Nevidimka,

Check out this link, some very nice shots of the plane from below,

Ú - Îáåùàåìûé â ïÿòîì ïîêîëåíèè

the possible positions of future bays, and also a good view of the engines layout and spacing.

Cheers
Plas

 

[Haavarla]

Here is some measurments of the inlet-duct-engine fans.

There is obviously both a vertical and horizontal bend in the intakes.
Perhaps there are also radar reflecting panels inside the intakes?

The horizontal bend/non-allignment can be seen clearly from this angle.
There are allready huge debates on other forums on how much of the Engine compressor blades are hidden or showing through the Air-inlets.

 

[Haavarla]

The point of the photos with coloured lines showing the angles of the sharp edges is that the Sukhoi DOES have aligned edges, just like the F-22, except different angles.

 

[Haavarla]

Su-27 vs Pak-Fa prototype vs YF-23:

 

[Haavarla]

Does this Pak-fa protoype have a sleeker/thinner side RCS
I mean the F-22A looks a bit more chubby and check out those tailfins..
I'm not sure, the pic's could be misleading..

 

[Salty Dog]

Since there is plenty of speculation on the T-50 internal weapons bays, I wonder if anyone has info on their weapons ejection system. Nice to fly around with internal weapons, but if they can't be launched at high speed, . . . . . .

 

[Scorpion82]

Since there is plenty of speculation on the T-50 internal weapons bays, I wonder if anyone has info on their weapons ejection system. Nice to fly around with internal weapons, but if they can't be launched at high speed, . . . . . .

I doubt they are designing such an aircraft and ignore such essential matters. It appears that the Su-47 has been used for weapon bay trials over the last few month/years. Maybe they are using a rotary launcher as was proposed for the Su-47?

 

[funtz]

First of all, everyone involved in this thread need a reminder:

http://www.defencetalk.com/forums/rules.php

Read everything, if you need a translator, let me know.

2nd, go back and read the last few pages of this thread, is that how civilized people debate and discuss maiden flights or even fighter aircraft?

Arch Light, you need to learn how to debate without calling names and throwing insults. It does not help your point of view at all, it only highlights your prejudices. Is that worth it when you are trying to convince the other side? Hell no.

Funts, calling him a bigot doesn't solve or prove anything.

We have two options now that this thread is locked and under mod discussion:

1. Keep it locked and BAN the offenders from both sides of the argument.

2. We somehow get our civility back and learn to debate like adults and not 10 year olds!!!

What is it going to be? You have few days to decide.

Thanks and enjoy

Apologies

 

[Totoro]

I don't see how pak fa would have smaller empty weight than a su27. What is more likely is that it is nearer to 20 ton mark. We have to remember that it has added internal structure: weapon bays, and that it is made stronger to carry big air to ground weapons, for which su27 wasnt originally designed. If has more fuel than su27 thats again added weight, though 9-10 tons should be enough. In the end, radar absorbing materials are usually heavier than regular strucure. They certainly add quite a bit of weight. I am very sure thats the part of the reason why an empty f22 weight whopping 19 tons.

 

[nevidimka]

Havaarla our picture man, thanks for the comparison pictures. Its very clear that the PAK FA has a morethinner side profile compared to the F 22. The F22 can be said as being more narrow in the middle, which is why it appear to thicken from side profile. However for the Pak Fa, its very very wide, which allowed more volume to be spread along its huge wide body hence giving it a more thinner side profile.
The Pak Fa indeed looks more like a flying wing/body design in keeping with the Flanker/Fulcrum styling. I'm sure this plane is gonna have huge lift form this design.

When looking at the pictures, the choice for a wing/tail design means a different look to the YF 23, however, give the same wing/tail config to the YF23, and we will be looking at 2 very very very similar aircraft.

Other things i forgot to mention was that I think the range of 5000+km is misleading, i believe its the range with 1 air refuel, just like the flankers numbers with air refuel. I doubt the plane can hold that much fuel.

Also its great to finally see and end to to the outdated framed HUD by the Russians. Its interesting that this HUD is very large and it completely missed out from the numerous leaks on the internet. Wish to see more clearer pic of the HUD.

Regarding the canopy, I think its a hastily made to make the flight launch. Its probably why there seems to be like holes right behind where the canopy ends when it should have been a clean design. Looks like a misfit. Probably so hastily done that it got STUCK? when the pilot tried to get out after the flight? If you see the video again, when the ground staffs were waiting for the pilot, there appears to be a delay with some loud banging sound. Seems like some1 tried to bang it open coz it got stuck? lol..normal i guess considering this is not the final canopy for it.

Also I was expecting some form of integration into the front design of the nose for the OLS, not sticking out like that.

Finally I think there has been no mention of the movable front LERX which is a first on any combat aircraft. Right in front of the engine inlets, which looks like a smart way of adding a canard without increasing the RCS. Added benefit would have it able to control the flow of the air passing into the fixed engine inlets for both supersonic and subsonic flight regimes. Smart workaround by the russians.

And btw.. is there any chance this plane being named Su 37 Nevidimka?

 

[Scorpion82]

And btw.. is there any chance this plane being named Su 37 Nevidimka?

I hope it's not designated Su-37 as this designation has been used 2 times before. It would be a backstep in comparison to Su-47 as well, so there might be a small chance that it will in fact become the Su-50, though it is not usual that the T-number matches the Su-number.

 

[tphuang]

Guys, most of you are very familiar with what is expected, so please, please play nice. Kindly treat others as you would want to be treated. Go ahead and express your views but back them up with facts and links where appropriate.

As more pictures appear, we'll have a clearer idea of structure of the front and rear of the aircraft. I might be wrong but there seems to be chines and edge alignments that is geared towards the frontal RCS aspect but such similar features are lacking in the rear.

Anyway, I'm providing a link to an article on Aviation Week by Bill Sweetman - 'T-50: A Preliminary Analysis'. I'm sure many of you have read it and for the newbies lurking and reading, it's a starting point for more reading.

I really like that article, because I was truly not too impressed by this prototype the first time (just in terms of stealth). However, thinking in the context that Bill mentioned, it looks like this is just the first big step in PAK-FA's development. Now, if it still looks like this in 5 years, then you'd have a problem. A lot really rests on whether Russia has the money to complete all of the subsystems for this program. Engine is probably the one that first comes to my mind.

 

[PeterCrisp]

I know this has nothing to do with operational effectiveness but I'm looking forward to seeing what this can do at airshows. I just want to see it do a nice tailslide .

 

[Feanor]

Did it relly fly with the new engines?

As far as I know, it's official.

Tphuang as far as I know total program cost for the PAK-FA+FGFA is estimated at 18-24 billion USD. And is likely to grow. So I think you hit the nail on the head in regards to the question of finance.