The F-16 replacement of the Royal Netherlands Airforce.

AndiPandi

New Member
Saab does its best to make their offer seem like a fixed definitive (and cheap) offer, as oposed to the "LM does not even say what the F-35 will cost" - This equates to something like: Gripen - Fixed low cost - F-35 - Unknown, possibly high cost. I don't blame anyone if they believe that the Gripen represents a fixed price - Saab has obviously learnt their lesson from the Norway-deal, and are doing their best to regain their "cheap&capable-image". The problem is, the package can not be complete if it does not say anything about the upgrades. The price of the upgrades are high, and the dutch should know this from the MLU, and Saab is in no position to make any guarantes on the price of the upgrades that the dutch might want 20 years from now.
This is no new approach from SAAB, Norway & Denmark was given the same kind of fixed priced offer before Norway went for the F-35.

There are upgrades defined and priced (for Norway at least) but they are not public. Of course there can be changes to what the duchtmen wants in 20 years time but upgrades up to that point can be included. The Gripen is upgraded at least every year, they have a bit different approach than most other fighter manufacturers.

And you cant deny the fact that SAAB has a very good knowledge about their own capabilities and the cost of owning and using the Gripen.

If the price of the JSF is not unknown, please tell us all what it is. Of course it depends on numbers built and what year you buy your plane, but LM cant even sat "if we build X many planes the price will be Y". There is a whole lot of more uncertainty in the JSF project.
 

Palnatoke

Banned Member
but LM cant even sat "if we build X many planes the price will be Y". There is a whole lot of more uncertainty in the JSF project.
Ofcourse LM knows pretty well that the JSF will cost, Y, if you build N planes.

I just suspect that if LM says "Y" at "N" then there will only be ordered "K" planes where "K"<<"N".
 

gripen39

New Member
This is no new approach from SAAB, Norway & Denmark was given the same kind of fixed priced offer before Norway went for the F-35.

There are upgrades defined and priced (for Norway at least) but they are not public. Of course there can be changes to what the duchtmen wants in 20 years time but upgrades up to that point can be included. The Gripen is upgraded at least every year, they have a bit different approach than most other fighter manufacturers.

And you cant deny the fact that SAAB has a very good knowledge about their own capabilities and the cost of owning and using the Gripen.

If the price of the JSF is not unknown, please tell us all what it is. Of course it depends on numbers built and what year you buy your plane, but LM cant even sat "if we build X many planes the price will be Y". There is a whole lot of more uncertainty in the JSF project.
$ 228m per unit including spares and support for these 14 JSF.
Source.:Australian aviation
JSF acquisition answers some questions, raises others | Australian Aviation Magazine
 

Todjaeger

Potstirrer
Does the F-35 price include all that?

And why would they pay for weapons?
Since the post came immediately after mine, I will assume the question was directed at me.

The F-35 has built into/carried internally in the design various avionics systems which have been touched upon in the various F-35 threads in DT. Just going over it briefly here, the F-35 will include all the various types of systems I mentioned. In order to operate as a multi-role fighter in hostile airspace, it needs such systems.

Without a targeting pod or equvilent, an aircraft has a difficult time detecting, illuminating or targeting a ground target with munitions, therefore the F-35 will have this built in.

Without DAS and EWSP and aircraft is even more vulnerable to GBAD and air threats. This would be of even greater importance for a non-LO offering like the Gripen NG, since it would not benefit from the overall difficulty a potential threat would have of detecting and engaging a LO platform like the F-35. All the same, the F-35 is to have these types of systems in case it does get detected and engaged.

The F-35 will have NATO compatible datalinks, otherwise the aircraft would not be able to make use of the significant work already done to pass information between different platforms.

Now weapons integration is also important, and it is not the same as purchasing the weapons. Rather, it means an aircraft design has been tested and can successfully deploy a particular type weapon. For air to air missiles, this usually means that the aircraft's radar and/or IRST can provide cueing and guidance information to the missile. For air to ground missiles and bombs, it means that the aircraft knows when to release the weapon to successfully reach the target, as well as being able to properly illuminate the target and/or pass target location information to the weapon being deployed.

Now in the case of the F-35, AFAIK since all variants (-A/B/C) will be seeing US service, the various US weapons will be integrated with the design. This means that AIM-9X, AIM-120 AMRAAM, AGM-65 Maverick, AGM-84 Harpoon, JASSM, JSOW, JDAM, SDB, etc will be able to be used from the F-35. I believe, but have not spent significant time checking, that if a partner nation wants to operate other weapons from the F-35, they can pay the costs to have a particular weapon integrated. Having said that though, there are a number of partner nations which likely would like to use various weapons from MBDA like Meteor, Brimstone, etc and therefore the integration costs would likely be spread out across a number of different end-user nations. It only really becomes an issue if there is just one nation which wants to employ a particular weapon, then that nation would be stuck paying the cost to integrate their chosen weapon. Given the weapons used by the different partner nations, IMO the nations which are most likely to have this occur if they order the F-35 is Israel, Japan and Singapore.

In the case of the Netherlands, which has stocks of US and possibly European weapons for use from their F-16s, such weapons would most likely either be already integrated for use from the F-35, or be the subject of several nations working together to get a particular weapon integrated. This would not necessarily be the case with the Gripen NG, since it seems likely that there will be significantly less users of the Gripen NG than the F-35. This could leave the RNLAF in the position of either having to pay to integrate some/all of their weapon stocks onto the Gripen NG, or having to purchase a new set of weapon stocks which are already integrated. Either of which effects the real price of getting the Gripen NG into Dutch service and does not seem to be reflected in the 'complete' packages listed.

-Cheers
 

Grand Danois

Entertainer
$ 228m per unit including spares and support for these 14 JSF.
Source.:Australian aviation
JSF acquisition answers some questions, raises others | Australian Aviation Magazine
Already posted and commented upon.

Australia bought 24 Super Hornets a few years ago for 6 billion AUD. Super Hornet fly-away is known, publically, to cost 58 million USD.

But they paid 250 million AUD apiece !!!

This means that if a JSF costs 228 AUSTRALIAN dollars, then the fly-away cost of the JSF must be...?

Come on, try to answer this one. :D
 

B3LA

Banned Member
"if a JSF costs 228 AUSTRALIAN dollars" I'll order a couple myself :rotfl
(Sorry GD, I have a very boooring day at work :cool: )
 

gripen39

New Member
Already posted and commented upon.

Australia bought 24 Super Hornets a few years ago for 6 billion AUD. Super Hornet fly-away is known, publically, to cost 58 million USD.

But they paid 250 million AUD apiece !!!

This means that if a JSF costs 228 AUSTRALIAN dollars, then the fly-away cost of the JSF must be...?

Come on, try to answer this one. :D
as of what we know today,no less than $80m and with the Nr,s above i would say that that Australia,a super hornets are very fully armed.
The "bridging" super hornets were acuired to replace the F-111with the intention of beeing in service for a 10 year period before they themselves were replaced by JSF,so..
24 Super hornets estimated for 10 years of service for $250m apiece
14 JSF estimated for 30 or 40 years of service for $228m apiece says me that if you should compare those two,the JSF must be pretty unarmed or have a fly-away cost of no more than 30 or $ 40m?? ;)
 

Grand Danois

Entertainer
as of what we know today,no less than $80m and with the Nr,s above i would say that that Australia,a super hornets are very fully armed.
The "bridging" super hornets were acuired to replace the F-111with the intention of beeing in service for a 10 year period before they themselves were replaced by JSF,so..
24 Super hornets estimated for 10 years of service for $250m apiece
14 JSF estimated for 30 or 40 years of service for $228m apiece says me that if you should compare those two,the JSF must be pretty unarmed or have a fly-away cost of no more than 30 or $ 40m?? ;)
Ah, so you do understand! As you say yourself in above, the price is not for the SHs only, but the total cost of acquisition and operations in a given number of years.

The same applies to the JSF - in this case it seems there are no weapons in the deal, but the even more significant and larger cost of introduction of type into the RAAF.

This Total cost of ownership (TCO, or costings similar to that, ) is typically many times bigger than the contract to the aircraft manufacturer. An example is Norway - the TCO for using 56 Gripen NG is 165 billion NOK for 30 (?) years, which SAAB compared this to the life cycle cost of the Gripen, which is but a fraction of the TCO.

Anyhow, wrt to the JSF buy check this out: here's the cost for a very early build fully-fledged test aircraft:

"Based on the “dollar plan,” the price of the first test aircraft was estimated at 113.2 million euros, but the adjusted price, using the current exchange rate, is 99.7 million euros. "

First Joint Strike Fighter Test Aircraft Cheaper
 

IPA35

New Member
  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #70
I would have decreased the planned numbers of F-35's and just kept the SH's in service.
Although 24 is a bit few for 2 squadrons;)

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AFAIK we posses the Sidewinder, AMRAAM, Iris-T, Maverick and the dumb, JDAM and Paveway versions of the Mk. 82 and Mk. 84.
Most of these are used by the Swedish Airforce themselfs, so I believe integration won't be a problem.

We also own soms pods currently used on the F-16's.


Anyone knows the extra costs of operating two types? Surely it can't be much more expensive then operating 85 F-35's:D
 

Todjaeger

Potstirrer
I would have decreased the planned numbers of F-35's and just kept the SH's in service.
Although 24 is a bit few for 2 squadrons;)

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AFAIK we posses the Sidewinder, AMRAAM, Iris-T, Maverick and the dumb, JDAM and Paveway versions of the Mk. 82 and Mk. 84.
Most of these are used by the Swedish Airforce themselfs, so I believe integration won't be a problem.

We also own soms pods currently used on the F-16's.


Anyone knows the extra costs of operating two types? Surely it can't be much more expensive then operating 85 F-35's:D
WRT to the RAAF SHornets, IIRC the 24 is for a single squadron plus some OCU.

As for the weapons (and pod) integration with Gripen NG, it should not be a problem for the weapons which are not already integrated with it. However, there will still be costs to achieve successful missile integration. By way of example, the Australian programme to acquire and integrate the AIM-132 ASRAAM onto RAAF F/A-18A/B Hornets had a total cost of ~A$300 million. From what I have been able to gather, the ASRAAM likely had a per-unit cost of ~A$500,000. Now, while I do not know the total number of ASRAAMs the RAAF would have purchased, the ADF has been noted as not maintaining large warstocks of munitions. I therefore doubt that Australia purchased more than 300 ASRAAMs (enough for 4 per Hornet), which would put integration costs at around A$150 million...

As one can see, even if the munitions are already owned and stocked by an air force, the integration costs onto a new aircraft can quickly raise programme costs. While I believe the air to air missiles might already be integrated (it is not entirely clear if this is the case though) the air to ground bombs and munitions are another story. A version of Maverick appears to be in service with Sweden so will likely be integrated with Gripen, however Sweden appears to use bombs manufactured by Bofors which would suggest that the JDAM and Paveway versions of the Mk 82 and Mk 84 bombs would need integration. If the RNLAF chose in the near future to also have newer munitions like the SDB, JSOW, JASSM enter service, I can see the programme cost rising by €1 billion just in weapon integration costs alone. Hence the previous question or concern about the Gripen NG offer being a 'complete' package.

-Cheers
 

AndiPandi

New Member
WRT to the RAAF SHornets, IIRC the 24 is for a single squadron plus some OCU.

As for the weapons (and pod) integration with Gripen NG, it should not be a problem for the weapons which are not already integrated with it. However, there will still be costs to achieve successful missile integration. By way of example, the Australian programme to acquire and integrate the AIM-132 ASRAAM onto RAAF F/A-18A/B Hornets had a total cost of ~A$300 million. From what I have been able to gather, the ASRAAM likely had a per-unit cost of ~A$500,000. Now, while I do not know the total number of ASRAAMs the RAAF would have purchased, the ADF has been noted as not maintaining large warstocks of munitions. I therefore doubt that Australia purchased more than 300 ASRAAMs (enough for 4 per Hornet), which would put integration costs at around A$150 million...

As one can see, even if the munitions are already owned and stocked by an air force, the integration costs onto a new aircraft can quickly raise programme costs. While I believe the air to air missiles might already be integrated (it is not entirely clear if this is the case though) the air to ground bombs and munitions are another story. A version of Maverick appears to be in service with Sweden so will likely be integrated with Gripen, however Sweden appears to use bombs manufactured by Bofors which would suggest that the JDAM and Paveway versions of the Mk 82 and Mk 84 bombs would need integration. If the RNLAF chose in the near future to also have newer munitions like the SDB, JSOW, JASSM enter service, I can see the programme cost rising by €1 billion just in weapon integration costs alone. Hence the previous question or concern about the Gripen NG offer being a 'complete' package.

-Cheers
Your pretty much guessing without any hard facts at all.
And I Seriously doubt that the integration of a handful of weapon systems will cost as much as 20 Gripen NG. Also its not very likely that SAAB lets the dutch air force (or any other first user) to take all the integration cost, they are smarter than that.
 

Toptob

Active Member
Hey everyone I dont remember the names to go with every post, but I'll comment what I want to comment point by point.

First thing was the post about the insidious incomplete deal from Saab.
So the weapon integration was one of the hickups, but you also said you didnt know which weapons would be integrated from the start.
I dont know that much about defense procurement, but it seems to me that the rnlaf wouldn't buy something they could not use. So I would figure that the weapons would be integrated, same with the datalinks and targeting/scanning equipement we want. Otherwise it could be bargained into the deal, we're still Dutch. And there's the fact that Saab needs the export order reaaaaly badly, and a european partner nation would really hit the spot for them. It could also be an idea to start shopping elsewhere for our airborne arsenal, maybe pick up some good offsets in that area.

Also it was said that the terrible deal also didnt include a MLU, and that those are very expensive.
What I asked myself was:
- was the MLU included in the F-16 deal? ( I would really like to know)
- Will it be included in the F-35 deal?
-Is that standard in aircraft procurement agreements?

I guess we could't do it ourselves anymore since they killed fokker (with the apache deal) so who would do it? Could the Yanks do an upgrade cheaper than Saab could?

And would it not be cheaper to integrate a new pod with the latest tech than it would replacing core systems from your avionics suite.
 

longbow

New Member
The bill for the MLU-deal was split between the danish, the dutch, the belgian and the norwegian airforces - it was not included in the original purchase. It will not be included this time either, not for the F-35, not for the Gripen. Regarding upgrades - choosing the F-35 would give you two advantages; The more modern aircraft(less urgent need for upgrades), and more partners to split the costs of future upgrades with.
 

Todjaeger

Potstirrer
Your pretty much guessing without any hard facts at all.
And I Seriously doubt that the integration of a handful of weapon systems will cost as much as 20 Gripen NG. Also its not very likely that SAAB lets the dutch air force (or any other first user) to take all the integration cost, they are smarter than that.
Not entirely. The ASRAAM purchase and integration cost A$300 million. The cost for a single ASRAAM is ~£200,000 which I believe at the time worked out to about A$500,000.

Where guess work enters is in the total # of ASRAAMs in RAAF inventory, but as I had mentioned, the ADF typically does not keep a high warstock of munitions. An example of this would be the Harpoon AShM, the RAN does not currently have enough for simultaneous deployment aboard all RAN frigates. Therefore a figure of 300 missiles is IMO not some entirely wild figure to deploy from 73 Hornets... Particularly when 16 of them are the two-seater training and OCU version. The RAAF Hornets which would most likely see air combat initially would be the F/A-18A Hornets which are single-seater and there are 57 in inventory.

Of course if someone could post the total number of ASRAAM the RAAF purchased initially that would certainly clear matters up, but I suspect that information is classified.

-Cheers
 

IPA35

New Member
  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #78
The best part is that we don't have the ASRAAM.
We have the Sidewinder, the Iris-T (that can me used on any Sidewinder capable aircraft am I right?) and the AMRAAM.
We should buy the METEOR though.

AFAIK the Swedes use license built versions of most current American weapon systems.
We use the same for the most part.
 

Todjaeger

Potstirrer
The best part is that we don't have the ASRAAM.
We have the Sidewinder, the Iris-T (that can me used on any Sidewinder capable aircraft am I right?) and the AMRAAM.
We should buy the METEOR though.

AFAIK the Swedes use license built versions of most current American weapon systems.
We use the same for the most part.
With regards to Iris-T and Sidewinder being compatible, AFAIK that is not quite correct. They can both be integrated onto an aircraft, but again AFAIK having one missile type integrated does not mean the other missile type is also integrated.

Some of the DefPros could likely explain it better than I, but weapons integration includes work to make sure that an aircraft's avionics can communicate with a missile for guidance, queing, launch command etc. It also includes trials to ensure weapons launch and clearance from the hardpoint/rail and away from the aircraft. Different missile types, having different weights and aerodynamic properties can behave differently during launch and in flight even if they are otherwise similar.

-Cheers
 

AndiPandi

New Member
With regards to Iris-T and Sidewinder being compatible, AFAIK that is not quite correct. They can both be integrated onto an aircraft, but again AFAIK having one missile type integrated does not mean the other missile type is also integrated.

Some of the DefPros could likely explain it better than I, but weapons integration includes work to make sure that an aircraft's avionics can communicate with a missile for guidance, queing, launch command etc. It also includes trials to ensure weapons launch and clearance from the hardpoint/rail and away from the aircraft. Different missile types, having different weights and aerodynamic properties can behave differently during launch and in flight even if they are otherwise similar.

-Cheers
Yes, but the integration of an Iris-T on a pylon where sidewinders can be used does not cost €200 million!
 
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