Marine Nationale (French Navy)

[Spacearrow99]

Date Posted: 10-Jul-2009

Jane's Defence Weekly
Russian Navy facing 'irreversible collapse'

Reuben F Johnson JDW Correspondent
Kiev


The Navy's commander-in-chief has said he would not exclude the possibility of buying naval vessels from abroad

The Russian Navy is currently on the verge of 'irreversible collapse', according to a recent analysis published by the authoritative Moscow-based weekly - the Independent Military Review .

The report, entitled 'BMF RF [Naval Military Fleet of the Russian Federation] on Foreign Warships', says the main cause for the 'collapse' is the state of the Russian shipbuilding industry, which is "incapable of producing warships in either the quantity or at the level of quality that their navy customer requires" for the future.

According to the analysis, the navy's leadership "understands that this is a hopeless situation and are looking for a way out by considering the purchase of naval vessels from abroad".

The issue was raised during the International Military Naval Exposition (MVMS) that took place in the last week of June in St Petersburg.

The Commander-in-Chief of the Russian Navy, Admiral Vladimir Vysotsky, outlined the problem when he said: "Our [challenge] is how to significantly improve the condition of our fleet without destroying the economic activity in the country. I also consider the idea of spending billions to repair and upgrade our old ships to be meaningless because they have only 10 years of service left in them. The new ships we would need, it is estimated, must be in service for a minimum of 40-50 years."

When asked if this meant the Russian Navy would consider purchasing naval vessels from abroad, Adm Vystosky replied: "I will tell you plainly that we do not exclude that possibility."

According to Russian industry sources, navy officials held talks with both France's Direction des Constructions Navales Services (DCNS), which was exhibiting at the Russian naval expo for the first time, and European systems house Thales. Russia's naval leadership is attempting to negotiate a set of co-operative arrangements that would have the navy engaged in:

- the joint production of a variant of the Mistral and Tonnerre BPC (Bâtiment de Projection et de Commandement) ships equipped with a heavy helicopter flight deck and potentially a hovercraft dock for rapid amphibious assault operations;

- a Franco-Russian project to design and build a series of nuclear-powered aircraft carriers for both countries' navies. it has not been decided if these ships could be constructed to be fitted with either ski-ramp take-off decks required to operate the Russian Navy's Sukhoi Su-33s or the catapult launcher required by France's Dassault Rafale M.

The Russian Navy is also reportedly looking to procure some types of submarine from Germany.

Russia's shipbuilding industry suffered more than other segments of the defence industry during a drought of orders since the 1990s. Additionally, the only shipyards that were capable of building an aircraft carrier during Soviet times are located in Ukraine, with which Moscow has had strained relations for the past several years.


My comments: Spacearrow99

The Mistrals are a good design and they're very cheap. The Russians don't have any long range troop sealift capabilities. They could built 4-6 Mistrals and equipment them with LCATs. The potential Mistral acquisition with new AORs would vastly improve the Russians troop sealift capabilities.

Well the Russians, new carriers are going to be CVNs. It looks like the new French carrier will be a CVN, if it is built. So, It would be a good ideal if the Russians and the French cooperated in building their new carriers.

 

[Twickiwi]

Date Posted: 10-Jul-2009

The Russian Navy is currently on the verge of 'irreversible collapse'...

- a Franco-Russian project to design and build a series of nuclear-powered aircraft carriers for both countries' navies.

Harnessing a dying horse to a lame horse won't make either run.nfloorl:

If France thinks getting into bed with Russia will postpone the need for reform or serious cooperation with its trustworthy near neighbours then the government may as well burn paper money in a forty metre high pile on the Champs Elysee. At least burning money would be a spectacle.

 

[riksavage]

Harnessing a dying horse to a lame horse won't make either run.nfloorl:

If France thinks getting into bed with Russia will postpone the need for reform or serious cooperation with its trustworthy near neighbours then the government may as well burn paper money in a forty metre high pile on the Champs Elysee. At least burning money would be a spectacle.

If France starts building joint nuclear carriers with Russia, they can forget continued membership of NATO. Western technology could then be passed on to any number of potential foes via Russia as a result of one of her mood swings!. Particularly if say ASTOR is included in the design. Building frigates and mine-sweepers is one thing, global reach carriers is a completely different ball game, which could result in a direct challenge of Americas dominance at sea. France could end up building a huge rod for it's own back?

 

[Spacearrow99]

If France starts building joint nuclear carriers with Russia, they can forget continued membership of NATO. Western technology could then be passed on to any number of potential foes via Russia as a result of one of her mood swings!. Particularly if say ASTOR is included in the design. Building frigates and mine-sweepers is one thing, global reach carriers is a completely different ball game, which could result in a direct challenge of Americas dominance at sea. France could end up building a huge rod for it's own back?

Some NATO members will be upset mainly the Eastern European members. The Russian carrier won't have Aster; the British and the Italians would've to approve the sale of Aster to the Russians. The Russians would put Russian radar and missiles on their carriers. The French would put the Herakles and Aster 15 or VL Mica on their carriers. They could share the development of costs of the new carriers that is it. After all the Russians can build STOBAR carriers by themselves. The French carrier would be CATOBAR. Well the Americans, should be mad If France, lets the Russians, copy the American catapult system from CDG, and they develop CATOBAR carriers with the French. The Russian carrier won't have Aster because the British and Italians would've approve the sale to the Russians.

 

[riksavage]

Some NATO members will be upset mainly the Eastern European members. The Russian carrier won't have Aster; the British and the Italians would've to approve the sale of Aster to the Russians. The Russians would put Russian radar and missiles on their carriers. The French would put the Herakles and Aster 15 or VL Mica on their carriers. They could share the development of costs of the new carriers that is it. After all the Russians can build STOBAR carriers by themselves. The French carrier would be CATOBAR. Well the Americans, should be mad If France, lets the Russians, copy the American catapult system from CDG, and they develop CATOBAR carriers with the French. The Russian carrier won't have Aster because the British and Italians would've approve the sale to the Russians.

This would have a huge impact on future European / US defence cooperation, particularly if any proposed platforms have US technology included. It will be seen as a backdoor way to gain western proprietary technology. It would mean Russian engineers embedded in French companies and visa-versa. Plus you seriously expect the largest contributor to NATO would simply sit back and watch a fellow NATO member assist in increasing the military capability of the very country the entire organization was set-up to defend against - DREAM ON :shudder. If France chooses to go down this route she had better prepare for a drastic change in her relationship with other critical NATO / Western countries, specifically Canada, Australia and the UK, who will not under any circumstances compromise their favoured technological access and intelligence sharing status with the US for sake of maintaining links with any new French / Russian military manufacturing partnership. Carrier's are strategic assets, designed to project power, offensive platforms way beyond maintaining the basic ability to defend ones own backyard.

The same goes for Germany selling the Russian's submarines - crazy. How could you justify NATO continuation if member states start selling high-tech kit to an unpredictable potential adversary who takes pleasure out of threatening to cut the west's gas supply off, or who threatens to aim short range nuclear missiles against new NATO members? Why on the one hand would European nations upgrade their AsW capabilities, and at the same time agree to sell silent modern Sub's to the very country those AsW assets would be pitched against - defies all logic.

 

[Ananda]

For Export Orders

Date Posted: 10-Jul-2009
According to Russian industry sources, navy officials held talks with both France's Direction des Constructions Navales Services (DCNS), which was exhibiting at the Russian naval expo for the first time, and European systems house

I Thought this talked with French defence industry more to collaborate on export orders ??
One example that being circulated is the planned modified Stereguschy Class Corvete for Indonesia, which will be potentially build in Spain and Indonesia, with French electronics/sensors and Russian missiles and weapons suit.

If I may ask how realiable it's that the Russian navy itself will use western sensors ??
Seems if any cooperation occur it will be limited on developing the platform and not on sensors and weapons suit.

 

[Spacearrow99]

France is issuing a study contract on viability of constructing their second carrier with nuclear propulsion.

Un contrat d'étude pour un porte-avions nucléaire

I highly doubt the Russian Navy would use Western sensors. The British have had a hard time of intergating the PAAMS to the Sampson radar. It would be a big waste of money. The Russians already have world class naval radars and air defense missiles.

 

[StevoJH]

France is issuing a study contract on viability of constructing their second carrier with nuclear propulsion.

Un contrat d'étude pour un porte-avions nucléaire

I highly doubt the Russian Navy would use Western sensors. The British have had a hard time of intergating the PAAMS to the Sampson radar. It would be a big waste of money. The Russians already have world class naval radars and air defense missiles.

They should just build the PA.2 design already completed, unless they built a second CdG class carrier they'd have to design a new carrier from scratch

 

[kev 99]

They should just build the PA.2 design already completed, unless they built a second CdG class carrier they'd have to design a new carrier from scratch

Unless there is space available in the PA2 design for the addition of a nuclear propulsion system, does sound like there would need to be quite a large redesign though..........................

 

[harryriedl]

Unless there is space available in the PA2 design for the addition of a nuclear propulsion system, does sound like there would need to be quite a large redesign though..........................

especialy as the GT's are in a novel postion on the island which means where the other engines (the diesels) would have to be expanded to fit a nuke system. I amazed that the French still are trying with CVN after the the horrors of CdG as they still don't have a reator with enough power.
What would be best I think is that Sarko approves PA-2 2011 and accept another prolonged period without a carrier as CdG in SLEP

 

[funtz]

especialy as the GT's are in a novel postion on the island which means where the other engines (the diesels) would have to be expanded to fit a nuke system. I amazed that the French still are trying with CVN after the the horrors of CdG as they still don't have a reator with enough power.
What would be best I think is that Sarko approves PA-2 2011 and accept another prolonged period without a carrier as CdG in SLEP

Is it possible for France to just get the reactor from USA and mate that to their design? (some systems on CdG are sourced from USA is i am not wrong).

 

[Spacearrow99]

especialy as the GT's are in a novel postion on the island which means where the other engines (the diesels) would have to be expanded to fit a nuke system. I amazed that the French still are trying with CVN after the the horrors of CdG as they still don't have a reator with enough power.
What would be best I think is that Sarko approves PA-2 2011 and accept another prolonged period without a carrier as CdG in SLEP

All of reactor problems of the CDG have been resolved. And I think the PA.2 is probably dead. The Marine Nationale never liked the PA.2 design. The French will go with one of the DCNS, CVN designs. The CDG uses two K15 reactors. The next carrier could use more than two K15reactors. I think the French could co-design a reactor with the Russians for their carrier. I highly doubt that France would buy reactors from the U.S.

 

[swerve]

.... I amazed that the French still are trying with CVN after the the horrors of CdG as they still don't have a reator with enough power. ...

It isn't the absolute power output of one reactor that matters, but the total output of all the reactors, in relation to ship size. Build a bigger ship than CdG (e.g. the planned PA2), & you'd need more reactors. Put the right number in, & you'd have enough power.

 

[harryriedl]

All of reactor problems of the CDG have been resolved. And I think the PA.2 is probably dead. The Marine Nationale never liked the PA.2 design. The French will go with one of the DCNS, CVN designs. The CDG uses two K15 reactors. The next carrier could use more than two K15reactors. I think the French could co-design a reactor with the Russians for their carrier. I highly doubt that France would buy reactors from the U.S.

They may be resoved now but the build for CdG. Arn't K-15 reactors low inrichment which means that de Gaulle is in dock frequnently wouldn't they prefrere a reator with higher inrichment.

All these comment seem to indcate that if the the French desire a to sign in 2011 for the construction of the next PA-2 lot and lots of things would need to be resoved.
How refined is the desgin of CdG Julliet. I just think that their are lots of if and buts with the next french carrier especialy if its meant to be ordered in 2 1/2 years (just thinking how firm the desgin and the build process was mid 04 CVF and prior to it the program had been running since pre 1998).

is CdG still in dry dock still because last I rember hearing their were transmision difficulites. Is it out yet.

 

[Spacearrow99]

They may be resoved now but the build for CdG. Arn't K-15 reactors low inrichment which means that de Gaulle is in dock frequnently wouldn't they prefrere a reator with higher inrichment.

All these comment seem to indcate that if the the French desire a to sign in 2011 for the construction of the next PA-2 lot and lots of things would need to be resoved.
How refined is the desgin of CdG Julliet. I just think that their are lots of if and buts with the next french carrier especialy if its meant to be ordered in 2 1/2 years (just thinking how firm the desgin and the build process was mid 04 CVF and prior to it the program had been running since pre 1998).

is CdG still in dry dock still because last I rember hearing their were transmision difficulites. Is it out yet.

Yes, the K15 reactors are low enrichment reactors. Higher enrichment reactors would increase the second carriers availaibility rate, but the MN usually only deploys one carrier at a time. France would have to buy more Rafale Marine, and atleast two more E-2Cs, if she wants to deploy two carriers, at a time.

The Julliette design was a follow on of the DCN's, Romeo study of conventional carrier. DCN and Thales offered the design to the French government for its second carrier. The Julliette design met more of the MN's needs then the CVF. Chirac wanted to cut costs by cooperating with the British.

The CdG will reenter service in September.

 

[riksavage]

Russian's have agreed to buy a single Mistral from the French. Whether this will result in them being licensed to build additional hulls remains unknown, but it could be the first step in future joint programmes.

The US will monitor any tech transfers, which involve US sub-systems, however they concede the Mistrals are low tech platforms and without supporting ships remain easy targets, so they aren't too worried.

 

[Twickiwi]

Russian's have agreed to buy a single Mistral from the French. Whether this will result in them being licensed to build additional hulls remains unknown, but it could be the first step in future joint programmes.

I guess this vindicates the Ozzy decision not to go with Mistral. I can't understand why a member of Nato would want to provide Russia with a naval means of power projection.

Putting aside the deterioration of Russia's democratic process, and the fact that they supported Serbia against the EU and Nato through a number of wars, and the fact that they engaged in war on Europes edge (Georgia), Russian bombers now patrol the North Sea testing UK/Norwegian/Danish air defences. Is France so short of a buck?:shudder

 

[swerve]

The Russians may have agreed to buy one, but the French haven't agreed to sell any.

ULAN BATOR, August 26 (RIA Novosti) - Russia is planning on signing by the end of 2009 a contractual agreement with France on the purchase of a Mistral class amphibious assault ship, the chief of the Russian General Staff said on Wednesday.

"We are planning to reach an agreement [with France] this year on the production and the purchase of a Mistral class vessel," Gen. Nikolai Makarov told a news conference in the Mongolian capital, Ulan Bator.

"We are negotiating the purchase of one ship at present, and later planning to acquire 3-4 ships [of the same class] to be jointly built in Russia," the general said.

 

[youpii]

Is France so short of a buck?:shudder

I would say yes. Financial crisis, recession, lots of unemployment...

 

[turin]

Putting aside the deterioration of Russia's democratic process, and the fact that they supported Serbia against the EU and Nato through a number of wars, and the fact that they engaged in war on Europes edge (Georgia), Russian bombers now patrol the North Sea testing UK/Norwegian/Danish air defences.

You make it look like Red Storm Rising is going to happen next year. Frankly the Russian interest in the Mistral type (still no word from the French on the whole thing) demonstrates again only one fact: The Russian shipbuilding industry is in serious disarray, right down to the level of R&D competency. Please keep in mind that once upon a time Russia was able to build everything involving helo-carriers and LPDs (the latter not a prominent concept in Russia, but certainly existing) on its own. The Russian navy still loses ships every year, no replacements are in sight, the shipyards management are being shouted at by the President on a regular basis for messing up even when they actually get some money.

This procurement, if it ever happens, will mean nothing in terms of balance of power. The Russian navy continues to fall apart at the seams. The French can just as well make some money out of it.