F-35 Multirole Joint Strike Fighter

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AndiPandi

New Member
IRST sensors used elsewhere are comparable to the EOTS on the JSF; the DAS is unique.
Isn't the EOTS more then an IRST?
I think it has a laser designator and a CCD as well?

The DAS consists of IR sensors just like any other IRST. The only difference between the DAS on the JSF and the FLIR on any other aircraft is the area the sensors are covering, but they do the same thing, searching & tracking in the IR spectra.



Please show me where to fit 6 x 1 ft cubes in a way that cover spherically - remember to include power cabling, cooling and cryo (thermal mgmt again ;)) - on the Gripen or the EF. Not doable. "No real estate."
If SAAB could retrofit flare dispensers AND MAW sensors in the Gripen C/D next to the engine without any redesigning I think it would be possible to find some extra space in the Typhoon. And since that aircraft has plenty of growth potential a slightly larger fuselage could be one possibility. Or why not make the wingtip pods 2-3 feet longer and put a rearward facing rotatable IRST in each one of them, that would give the aircraft an almost 360 degree coverage in combination with a sensor in front of the pilot and one downward facing sensor under him, you dont need 6 sensors unless they are flat like in the DAS system.

My point is that the functionality of the DAS can be incorporated in any other fighter. The DAS wont be operational until 2015 or even later, and by that time several other fighters could have similar systems, since there are plenty of companies with the knowhow needed to build such a system.


Numbers to be ordered uncertain => price tag varies with this, so no fixed price before orders are signed. That's why, so simple.
Do you really think any country will sign a binding contract before they know the price???
 

Grand Danois

Entertainer
Isn't the EOTS more then an IRST?
I think it has a laser designator and a CCD as well?
Damocles pod FLIR/IRST has laser designator. Sniper XR, Gripen, also laser designator. Pirate does not.

The EOTS is a modded Sniper system. The wafers used in the Sniper pod are the same as those used in EOTS and DAS.

The DAS consists of IR sensors just like any other IRST. The only difference between the DAS on the JSF and the FLIR on any other aircraft is the area the sensors are covering, but they do the same thing, searching & tracking in the IR spectra.
The term, IRST, cover both EOTS types and DAS, however, they do vastly different things. The DAS

- sacrifice range over coverage;
- use 6 sensors to for full coverage, staring arrays.

The objective is to have full awareness WVR.

If SAAB could retrofit flare dispensers AND MAW sensors in the Gripen C/D next to the engine without any redesigning I think it would be possible to find some extra space in the Typhoon. And since that aircraft has plenty of growth potential a slightly larger fuselage could be one possibility.
Was the countermeasures and MAWS anticipated upgrades? If so it was taken into account at the design stage (I'll admit I don't know if it was, but if I should make a qualified guess, I'd say it was). The MAWs that Gripen uses is a much, much smaller and limited system, i.e. detection of SHORAD missiles and WVR missiles.

Or why not make the wingtip pods...
Here you face the problem upgrades that were not anticipated at design stage: pods, bulges, etc...

2-3 feet longer and put a rearward facing rotatable IRST in each one of them, that would give the aircraft an almost 360 degree coverage in combination with a sensor in front of the pilot and one downward facing sensor under him, you dont need 6 sensors unless they are flat like in the DAS system.
DAS = 6 x large staring arrays. Fewer sensors and probability of detection and effective range drops with fewer and lesser sensors.

My point is that the functionality of the DAS can be incorporated in any other fighter. The DAS wont be operational until 2015 or even later, and by that time several other fighters could have similar systems, since there are plenty of companies with the knowhow needed to build such a system.
Others could build it, I agree, however existing designs would struggle to incorporate it.

Do you really think any country will sign a binding contract before they know the price???
No, but that's not what I said (or tried to say).

The price can vary because exact numbers to be ordered is unknown and acutal orders will be signed 3 years before delivery. Consider that Denmark, Holland and Norway will need their jets from 2015-2016. Take Denmark: The type selection was shifted from spring this year to the fall, while numbers to be ordered was shifted from fall to spring (a little tactical maneuver in domestic politics). But contract is still to be signed in 2012-2013 - that's 3-4 years away, as time draws nigh a lot of unknowns will be known (no Rumsfeld jokes, please) and a price can be accurately determined. Price varies, but not much, from factors like how many and at what rate partner jets are to be produced.

But were still in the 60 million usd range.
 
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Grand Danois

Entertainer
Btw, check this video of AIM-9X HOBS shots, showing how hard it actually is to fool an IR CCD guided missile.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4g4_jzqBJnA]YouTube - AIM-9x SIDEWINDER Trial[/ame]

...and that was nine (9) years ago.

Now mix that with DAS and it makes me think of that NG promo video.
 

Grand Danois

Entertainer
Ohh I can't help myself here... :D

My two bits?

Short term: replace F-4 with Typhoon. Mid to long term: induct F-35 as a replacement for F-15J.

Nice & versatile mix with the F-2s.
and...

I'd still contend Typhoon has more attraction as a sheer industry project. And it could be developed into an excellent CMD fighter. An end-to-end new AESA (not Captor-E) plus carries a lot of missiles and CFTs. With the geographical layout of Japan and potential threats it should fit quite nicely.
it fits so well with this article... and an "F-22 like aircraft":

Japanese F-22 Campaign Lives On

Jun 3, 2009

David A. Fulghum [email protected]

Japanese defense officials have not given up on buying the F-22, as both Japanese and U.S. operational specialists note that the advanced fighter and cruise missile threats from China are growing.

Moreover, they expect future diplomatic conflict perhaps armed clashes over unpopulated islands west of Japan to increase as various countries in the region argue about conflicting claims to oil and gas development.

The long distances involved and the lack of runways to the west and south of Japan create a unique operational need that the Japanese Air Self Defense Force can only partially fulfill. It has modern KC-767 tankers and E-767 AWACS to patrol its islands, but not the fighter aircraft with the speed, altitude, stealth, precision attack and small-target radars that would allow them to move quickly across the great ocean expanses between Japan and China. The small target capability would allow for a cruise missile defense and precision target would allow a defense if its islands were occupied by foreign forces. Japanese officials say that they are constitutionally prevented from increasing force structure, therefore they must have higher performance aircraft.

Japan's F-X program is aimed at buying 20-60 high performance F-22-like aircraft. The follow-on F-XX effort is being written to an F-35-like requirement for many more aircraft. Both programs will replace existing aircraft.

[...]

Japanese F-22 Campaign Lives On | AVIATION WEEK
 

Crusader2000

Banned Member
Ohh I can't help myself here... :D



and...



it fits so well with this article... and an "F-22 like aircraft":

Japanese F-22 Campaign Lives On

Jun 3, 2009

David A. Fulghum [email protected]

Japanese defense officials have not given up on buying the F-22, as both Japanese and U.S. operational specialists note that the advanced fighter and cruise missile threats from China are growing.

Moreover, they expect future diplomatic conflict perhaps armed clashes over unpopulated islands west of Japan to increase as various countries in the region argue about conflicting claims to oil and gas development.

The long distances involved and the lack of runways to the west and south of Japan create a unique operational need that the Japanese Air Self Defense Force can only partially fulfill. It has modern KC-767 tankers and E-767 AWACS to patrol its islands, but not the fighter aircraft with the speed, altitude, stealth, precision attack and small-target radars that would allow them to move quickly across the great ocean expanses between Japan and China. The small target capability would allow for a cruise missile defense and precision target would allow a defense if its islands were occupied by foreign forces. Japanese officials say that they are constitutionally prevented from increasing force structure, therefore they must have higher performance aircraft.

Japan's F-X program is aimed at buying 20-60 high performance F-22-like aircraft. The follow-on F-XX effort is being written to an F-35-like requirement for many more aircraft. Both programs will replace existing aircraft.

[...]

Japanese F-22 Campaign Lives On | AVIATION WEEK

Well, the JASDF is not going to get Typhoons nor do I see much advantage in a Fleet of F-2's and Typhoons..........


Though she will get F-35's..............and maybe Raptors. Of course the latter is not likely.
 

rossfrb_1

Member
Well, the JASDF is not going to get Typhoons nor do I see much advantage in a Fleet of F-2's and Typhoons..........


Though she will get F-35's..............and maybe Raptors. Of course the latter is not likely.
One can only imagine the gnashing of teeth within the LM F-22 bureau with Japan (and maybe Australia) willing to throw money at them, but the US government saying NO.

rb
 

gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
One can only imagine the gnashing of teeth within the LM F-22 bureau with Japan (and maybe Australia) willing to throw money at them, but the US government saying NO.

rb
quite frankly the last thing we want is the F-22. They have some looming nightmares coming up with through life integration into their 2014-2025 ewarfare plans - JSF has learnt from that lesson. (one of the many lessons learnt from the F-22 program)

I suspect that the US is also quite happy not to flog them off when they know what maint they have to endure themselves for he next 15-20 years. They'll be hoarding those parts like squirrels with a paucity of nuts for winter....

RAAF never wanted them no matter what the papers might try and spruik.
 

Crusader2000

Banned Member
quite frankly the last thing we want is the F-22. They have some looming nightmares coming up with through life integration into their 2014-2025 ewarfare plans - JSF has learnt from that lesson. (one of the many lessons learnt from the F-22 program)

I suspect that the US is also quite happy not to flog them off when they know what maint they have to endure themselves for he next 15-20 years. They'll be hoarding those parts like squirrels with a paucity of nuts for winter....

RAAF never wanted them no matter what the papers might try and spruik.
Considering the small number that Japan would have taken. She probably could have 2-3 times more F-35's. Which, are going to be far more useful and economical............Including both Landbased F-35A's and STOVL F-35B's.
 

laltaputu

New Member
indian jsf plan

I saw this on BBC World (21/7/04)

Britain iss concerned over LockHead Martin's lack of response towards F-35 and more towards F/A-22

EDS goes back to drawing board to restart software for EF-2000

Dessault concerened after Mirage2000-5 pilot reports computerized glitchs. Glitch accoured in three different Mirage 2000-5 Jets when all three tried same battle tactic moves in the air. If the problem is in software all Mirage2000-5 sold to different countries will have to go under re-development of software.
The pilot said when the Jet was in super sonic speed it projected target at the wrong side and also projected Friendly Jets as target.



is there any chance of india buying jsf
 

F35Owns

New Member
Ohh I can't help myself here... :D



and...



it fits so well with this article... and an "F-22 like aircraft":

Japanese F-22 Campaign Lives On

Jun 3, 2009

David A. Fulghum [email protected]

Japanese defense officials have not given up on buying the F-22, as both Japanese and U.S. operational specialists note that the advanced fighter and cruise missile threats from China are growing.

Moreover, they expect future diplomatic conflict perhaps armed clashes over unpopulated islands west of Japan to increase as various countries in the region argue about conflicting claims to oil and gas development.

The long distances involved and the lack of runways to the west and south of Japan create a unique operational need that the Japanese Air Self Defense Force can only partially fulfill. It has modern KC-767 tankers and E-767 AWACS to patrol its islands, but not the fighter aircraft with the speed, altitude, stealth, precision attack and small-target radars that would allow them to move quickly across the great ocean expanses between Japan and China. The small target capability would allow for a cruise missile defense and precision target would allow a defense if its islands were occupied by foreign forces. Japanese officials say that they are constitutionally prevented from increasing force structure, therefore they must have higher performance aircraft.

Japan's F-X program is aimed at buying 20-60 high performance F-22-like aircraft. The follow-on F-XX effort is being written to an F-35-like requirement for many more aircraft. Both programs will replace existing aircraft.

[...]

Japanese F-22 Campaign Lives On | AVIATION WEEK
An update to your post....they are not far off:

U.S.-Japan dance on F-22 continues

If Japan gets them, it will leave the line open for the US to buy more of them, cheaper.
 

Haavarla

Active Member
is there any chance of india buying jsf

Sure thing..

But not for the next 15-25 years or so!:rolleyes:

India are deeply commited with those Mig-29K for the their Navy.

And they will use an astronomic sum on the MRCA.

And then the Pak-Fa..
Where could India possible find time & funding for F-35?

The question you should ask is this, how long will those Mig-29K stay in service?



Thanks
 

Crusader2000

Banned Member
An update to your post....they are not far off:

U.S.-Japan dance on F-22 continues

If Japan gets them, it will leave the line open for the US to buy more of them, cheaper.
It has taken some time for U.S. and Japanese negotiators to get a deal together for the F-22. And it will take several years of development to get an export version off the ground since there is a large amount of sensitive technology that U.S. officials believe needs protection. Aviation Week estimated it would be 2017 before delivery of the first aircraft to the Japanese air self-defense force.

Of course it says nothing about the US Production Line for the Raptor closing way before "2017"..........:rolleyes:


Sorry, I don't see the Japanese paying "290 Million" per copy. Nor, Obama Administration funding more Raptor till "2017".
 

Crusader2000

Banned Member
Sure thing..

But not for the next 15-25 years or so!:rolleyes:
Hard to say but it could be 15-20 years.

India are deeply commited with those Mig-29K for the their Navy
.

I believe that India has only spoken for 16 Mig-29K's at this stage. Which, could easily be passed on to the IAF. If, the Navy wants to explore other options. Maybe even a mixed fleet of Mig-29K's and F-35's. Like the Super Hornet and F-35 in USN Service.

Regardless, only time will tell? Both India's Carrier Program and the Mig-29K will have to mature. Plus the US/Indian Relationship.

And they will use an astronomic sum on the MRCA.
Of course the Winner of the MMRCA could impact the future selection of the F-35.

And then the Pak-Fa..
Well, at this early stage we have no idea what problems may come up??? (if any)

Where could India possible find time & funding for F-35?
Clearly, that would depend on a lot of variables.

The question you should ask is this, how long will those Mig-29K stay in service?
Like I said only a small number available. Which, could operate along side the F-35's or possibly passed on to the IAF......

Regardless, anything at this early stage is pure speculation. Much of course would depend on the how the PAK-FA, Mig-29, and US/Indian relations progress.:duel
 
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Haavarla

Active Member
Crusader2000;177363]



I believe that India has only spoken for 16 Mig-29K's at this stage. Which, could easily be passed on to the IAF. If, the Navy wants to explore other options. Maybe even a mixed fleet of Mig-29K's and F-35's. Like the Super Hornet and F-35 in USN Service.

Regardless, only time will tell? Both India's Carrier Program and the Mig-29K will have to mature. Plus the US/Indian Relationship.


Like I said only a small number available. Which, could operate along side the F-35's or possibly passed on to the IAF......

Regardless, anything at this early stage is pure speculation. Much of course would depend on the how the PAK-FA, Mig-29, and US/Indian relations progress.:duel


Fair enough.

How much will those 16 Mig-29K cost?


Thanks
 

Crusader2000

Banned Member
Fair enough.

How much will those 16 Mig-29K cost?


Thanks

Naval pilots undergoing training on MiG-29Ks in Russia



Ravi Sharma







BANGALORE: The Navy’s acquisition of the 45,000-tonne Russian aircraft carrier Admiral Gorshkov may have run into serious cost and time overruns. But it has not come in the way of the type conversion training in Russia of Indian naval pilots who will fly the MiG-29K aircraft that are going to be part of the carrier once it gets commissioned into the Navy as INS Vikramaditya.

Speaking to The Hindu during the recent Aero India 2009, the Director-General of the Russian Aircraft Corporation (RAC) MiG, Mikhail Aslanovich Pogosyan said naval pilots were presently being given flight training, with the training in theory just completed.

The six-month intensive training for pilots from the Indian Navy started in October.

As part of its aircraft carrier plans, the Indian Navy in January 2004 ordered at a cost of $740 million 16 MiG-29Ks from Russia that included 12 single-seat MiG-29Ks and four tandem-seat MiG-29KUB operational conversion trainers.

The 16 aircraft are also being upgraded from purely medium multi-role combat fighters into dedicated, network-centric information warfare platforms that possess force-multiplier capabilities such as airborne early warning & control as well as offensive electronic jamming.

Mr. Pogosyan, who has recently been appointed by Russian Prime Minister Vladimir Putin as the overall head of nearly all of Russia’s defence manufacturing and designing industry, said four certified MiG-29Ks had already been transferred to the Indian project team in Russia.

“Indian pilots are already training to fly the MiG-29Ks from a shore-based facility. They have been doing even 15 sorties in a day during the winter. We expect the first four MiG-29Ks to arrive in India later this year, with the other 12 being delivered by 2010.” Mr. Pogosyan also disclosed that the MiG-29Ks meant for India would be certified by Russian pilots taking of from a Russian carrier. However there were no plans as of now for Indian pilots to train from a Russian carrier.

Once the trained pilots are back in India, the Navy hopes to continue their training by using the Shore-based Test Facility (SBTF) that has been constructed with Russian help at the naval airbase INS Hansa in Goa.

Of course who know's how accurate that number is......:confused:
 

gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
is there any chance of india buying jsf
Not in the existing development partnership. All of the available tech sharing slots are gone - and that means any future buyers would be buyers only - as the techn sharing slots are fully committed. ie Israel, Japan, or India can only participate as customers.

The issue of JSF for India becomes of viable interest depending on their 126 purchasing decision.
 

Crusader2000

Banned Member
Not in the existing development partnership. All of the available tech sharing slots are gone - and that means any future buyers would be buyers only - as the techn sharing slots are fully committed. ie Israel, Japan, or India can only participate as customers.

The issue of JSF for India becomes of viable interest depending on their 126 purchasing decision.
Agreed the odds would improve greatly. If, an American Type was selected as a winner of the MMRCA.


BTW The latter is likely in my opinion.
 
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