F-35 Multirole Joint Strike Fighter

[METEORSWARM]

Currently, there are many things to evaluate, potential threats, needs and price, the lower lines have served as logistical and air forces.lots countries envy any of the current 5 fighter today in the West.F-22,F35,Efa,Rafale,Gripen
The maximum life of a aircraft are 30 to 40 years, we have to assess how many units you need and the amount of total logistics ....... divide between 40 and tell me how much money per aircraft pulled a year without using it and you if we are true or nonsense.

Price of aircraft and dividing by 40 years will see the money that is thrown in the trash every year per unit and automatically use it to fly.


300 / 40 = 7.5 million / unit
150 / 40 = 3.75 million / unit
70 / 40 = 1.75 million / unit

Is lot expensive,lot money to trash,with this money the people can life best.

¿Really need a super aircraft for WWIII?¿where the war?All in future is...............asimetric conflict,Big country vs litle country.



greetings

 

[Vivendi]

I'd still contend Typhoon has more attraction as a sheer industry project. And it could be developed into an excellent CMD fighter. An end-to-end new AESA (not Captor-E) plus carries a lot of missiles and CFTs. With the geographical layout of Japan and potential threats it should fit quite nicely.

However even with AESA the Typhoon remains an (excellent) 4.5 gen fighter and not a 5. gen fighter; this does translate into lower survivability in particular against surface based missiles -- and they don't have to be land based, I guess they can be ship based.

It comes back to this; why invest in a rapidly outdated 4.5 platform when a 5.gen platform at the same or even lower price becomes available? I think you need a good reason like a desperate need to replace very old equipment urgently... Or some political reasons.

V

 

[METEORSWARM]

No correct,typhoon use other tactic vs misile tactical ground and naval,air base/military base,the missile cruiser,low altitude 30 meter,0,95 mach and range 500+ km in the more bad condition lauch

Kepd 350/storm shadow


You give info enemy targets to the missile choose in the sector/s map with the program automatic.


Typhoon is stealth to front 90º and low observable (1 m rcs to 3,6,9,hours),no stealth 360º .

Typhoon and F-22 have less firm IR,low energy engines=supercruiser (1,5 and 1,8 mach).

The new generation missiles ground have sensor ir/irst in heat missile.Misille ground have more power detecction.F-35 inside range new platform missile is crazy,with uva/ucas/hale .......can alert enemy very very before,the best choice for f-35 is pick the kepd -350/storm shadow and bye bye problems.

 

[PeterCrisp]

How can Tranche 3 Eurofighter be out of date before it's even started to be developed? I'm not going to get into an argument about how good it is but some people seem to be summarily dismissing it which seems a tad unfair.

You would think all the countries who are buying it would be a tad concerned if it was obsolete the moment it roles of the production line as it's not exactly cheap as chips.

 

[energo]

Typhoon is stealth to front 90º and low observable (1 m rcs to 3,6,9,hours),no stealth 360º .

You base this on what data?


B. Bolsøy
Oslo

 

[Vivendi]

How can Tranche 3 Eurofighter be out of date before it's even started to be developed? I'm not going to get into an argument about how good it is but some people seem to be summarily dismissing it which seems a tad unfair.

You would think all the countries who are buying it would be a tad concerned if it was obsolete the moment it roles of the production line as it's not exactly cheap as chips.

Well, it is what it is: a 4. gen (or, at best, 4.5 gen) a/c. AESA w. LPI will help, but you will never get the RCS of F-35; also the IR signature will remain much higher. Furthermore, you lack things like the DAS system.

It will remain a "good" a/c for many years to come, but there will be missions it will not be able to do, unlike the F-35. Once the cost of F-35 goes down to below Typhoon levels, there will be no reasons to buy TYphoon. And F-35 prices are estimated to drop rather quickly with the huge production rates that are planned.

The "5. gen" talk makes a lot of sense to me since there is a huge gap in capabilities, that will not be closed, even with upgrades.

V

 

[AndiPandi]

Well, it is what it is: a 4. gen (or, at best, 4.5 gen) a/c. AESA w. LPI will help, but you will never get the RCS of F-35; also the IR signature will remain much higher. Furthermore, you lack things like the DAS system.

It will remain a "good" a/c for many years to come, but there will be missions it will not be able to do, unlike the F-35. Once the cost of F-35 goes down to below Typhoon levels, there will be no reasons to buy TYphoon. And F-35 prices are estimated to drop rather quickly with the huge production rates that are planned.

The "5. gen" talk makes a lot of sense to me since there is a huge gap in capabilities, that will not be closed, even with upgrades.

V

Why do you think that the IR signature will be much higher? Neither the Eurofighter or the JSF have the stealthy engine nozzles the F-22 has. And last time I checked it was the JSF that suffered from overheating:
Ares Homepage

The DAS system is doing exactly what any other IRST is doing, The only difference is the number of sensors. The Eurofighter is big enough to easily carry six of those sensors and EADS definitely has the know-how to develop a system of their own, I mean even SAAB can...

And if the JSF will be so cheap, why cant LM give any fixed price to for example Norway until 2012? "Huge production rates"... in LMs marketing slides maybe. Did any american fighter sell in the numbers projected during the last 20 years?

And cant we just stop this crap with "generations"...

 

[Grand Danois]

Why do you think that the IR signature will be much higher? Neither the Eurofighter or the JSF have the stealthy engine nozzles the F-22 has. And last time I checked it was the JSF that suffered from overheating:
Ares Homepage

The DAS system is doing exactly what any other IRST is doing, The only difference is the number of sensors. The Eurofighter is big enough to easily carry six of those sensors and EADS definitely has the know-how to develop a system of their own, I mean even SAAB can...

IRST sensors used elsewhere are comparable to the EOTS on the JSF; the DAS is unique.

No - the very same AvWeek carried a story almost the same week that the thermal management was inside req and there was being looked into further improvements. Link evades me, but Graham Warwick (or Fulghum?) with a co-author is a good guess.

Mr Sweetman is speculating.

Please show me where to fit 6 x 1 ft cubes in a way that cover spherically - remember to include power cabling, cooling and cryo (thermal mgmt again ) - on the Gripen or the EF. Not doable. "No real estate."

And if the JSF will be so cheap, why cant LM give any fixed price to for example Norway until 2012? "Huge production rates"... in LMs marketing slides maybe. Did any american fighter sell in the numbers projected during the last 20 years?

Numbers to be ordered uncertain => price tag varies with this, so no fixed price before orders are signed. That's why, so simple.

And cant we just stop this crap with "generations"...

Problem with that is that it may originate as a marketing term, but it does describe a quantum leap in concept of air power - it is warranted. And it's easy to use and everyone gets it.

 

[METEORSWARM]

Signature IR,the first point for less detecction to irst enemy,is the low emision energy in short espace.

Irst have options configuration.

Slave to radar or not slave to radar,search and track.

Slave to radar,radar detect one aircraft but can not identifie in large range,irst can choose target and look.

Search and track is diferent mode,irst look emisions nozzless,search in the emisions the more temperature and finish locate identifie the target.

f-22 /f-35/typhoon

The aerodinamic performance is one point no upgrade in the future.....or born with the aircraft o later no born.
F-22 same energy move 1,8 mach. - -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- --supercruiser 615m/s
Typhoon same energy move 1,5 mach. --- --- --- --- --- supercruiser
519m/s
F-35 same energy move 1 mach. --------- --------- supercruiser
343m/s


F-22 camera to low temperature in nozzels.
Typhoon celula extra low weight with use masive material composite(70%),for 1,5 mach need very less engine.With 6 bombs 1000l + 2 asraam leaves the track and dont need afterburneer.
F-35...................
look the linear,disipation hot best in linear more speed.


The point for 5 generation is ¿supercruiser?No
The point for 5 generation is ¿low signature ir?No
The point for 5 generation is ¿stealth to radar 360 º? yes


In typhoon the point is low signature IR and low observable (rcs) with towed decoy jaming enemy missile.
greetings

 

[Aussie Digger]

Why do you think that the IR signature will be much higher? Neither the Eurofighter or the JSF have the stealthy engine nozzles the F-22 has. And last time I checked it was the JSF that suffered from overheating

The F-35 doesn't have engine nozzles at all. Only one in fact and it most definitely IS an LO design.

It is not the SAME LO design as the F-22, but the non-LO engine exhaust that most F-35 critics refer to, is the engine nozzle seen on AA-1 and X-35 demonstrator. These are NOT the operational exhaust nozzles and analysis done on them are entirely irrelevent. Operational exhaust nozzles ARE significantly different.

Look at the photos of Bf-1 and AA-1 for instance? The saw-toothing on BF-1 around the engine is FAR more extensive than AA-1 and saw-toothing is entirely non-existant on X-35...

I'll show you.

X-35:

http://www.jsf.mil/images/gallery/cdp/lockheed/x35a/cdp_loc_ctol_005.jpg

Here you can see entirely round engine nozzle and no sawtoothing around the rear of the airframe.

AA-1:

http://www.jsf.mil/images/gallery/sdd/f35_test/a/sdd_f35testa_033.jpg

Here you can see that the engine nozzle itself has a closer to production engine nozzle with some sawtoothing evident on the nozzle itself. The rear of the airframe does not yet have it's LO features.

BF-1:

http://www.jsf.mil/images/gallery/sdd/f35_test/b/sdd_f35testb_016.jpg

Here you can quite clearly see the changes to the rear of the airframe as the aircraft moves closer to production. The engine nozzle has an evolved version of it's sawtoothing LO features and the rear of the airframe has this feature introduced above and below the engine nozzle.

Homework isn't hard, but then those you quote have an agenda that has nothing to do with being fair to this aircraft...

 

[Vivendi]

RCS maintenance

One of the things I am very interested to learn more about is how RCS maintenance will be done on the F-35 -- not all the nitty-gritty details, but some of the general principles.

AFAIK one of the issues with earlier generations of VLO planes have been the very high costs on maintaining the stealth; and there have been some reports that even the F-22 has very high maintenance costs related to keeping rcs low. I guess materials technology is very important, but there most be more to it than that?

Perhaps another factor could simply be that F-35 will have less demanding requirements on the rcs, as compared to the F-22?

Anyway, although I don't understand how they actually do it, it does look very good:

F-35C Stealth On The Carrier Deck Means High Performance, Low Maintenance

The package is designed to remain stealthy in severe combat conditions, and tests have validated that capability. After obtaining baseline radar cross section (RCS) measurements from a highly detailed, full-scale Signature Measurement Aircraft (SigMA), a team of Lockheed Martin and Northrop Grumman engineers intentionally inflicted extensive damage - more than three dozen significant defects - on the model. The damage represented the cumulative effect of more than 600 flight hours of military aircraft operations. RCS measurements taken after the damage showed that the stealthy signature remained intact.

V

 

[Grand Danois]

AFAIK one of the issues with earlier generations of VLO planes have been the very high costs on maintaining the stealth; and there have been some reports that even the F-22 has very high maintenance costs related to keeping rcs low. I guess materials technology is very important, but there most be more to it than that?

Quite right that it's not about technology alone. As planning of and implementation of maintenance and sustainment procedures mature, i.e. experience and real data accumulate, MTBM & MTBMA improve radically - the F-22 being an obvious case, it's not the hog it used to be. I have noted the same wrt the Rafale (does not include RCS maint, of course ).

 

[PeterCrisp]

The only proof I have that the Eurofighter is still a capable fighter and not obsolete is that it's still in so many procurement competitions. Sure it may not win but if it was obsolete surely it would be thrown out at the first opportunity.
I really did not want this to become another battle between F35 and Eurofighter fans I was just pointing out that some people seem to think it doesn't even deserve consideration for new sales which is a tad unfair.
I'd like to think that the competitions that are going on at the moment are fair and that the right Aircraft (whatever that may be) will be picked to fulfil they role they need it to.

 

[Vivendi]

The only proof I have that the Eurofighter is still a capable fighter and not obsolete is that it's still in so many procurement competitions. Sure it may not win but if it was obsolete surely it would be thrown out at the first opportunity.
I really did not want this to become another battle between F35 and Eurofighter fans I was just pointing out that some people seem to think it doesn't even deserve consideration for new sales which is a tad unfair.
I'd like to think that the competitions that are going on at the moment are fair and that the right Aircraft (whatever that may be) will be picked to fulfil they role they need it to.

It is a good a/c and it may win some contracts -- but highly unlikely in countries which are considering F-35.... Some of the countries not considering F-35 (e.g. India, Romania) may go for the TYphoon in the end. Typhoon can compete with the other 4.gens (Rafale, SH, Gripen NG. F16 block60-70) but not with F-35, it's a different class

V

 

[Grim901]

It is a good a/c and it may win some contracts -- but highly unlikely in countries which are considering F-35.... Some of the countries not considering F-35 (e.g. India, Romania) may go for the TYphoon in the end. Typhoon can compete with the other 4.gens (Rafale, SH, Gripen NG. F16 block60-70) but not with F-35, it's a different class

V

And yet Britain is procuring both. Some countries are only procuring the f35B because there is no alternative. It's a captive audience so you can't really draw a fair comparison.

 

[Aussie Digger]

And yet Britain is procuring both. Some countries are only procuring the f35B because there is no alternative. It's a captive audience so you can't really draw a fair comparison.

Typhoon procurement predates the F-35 so of course Britain is still procuring Typhoon.

The Euroconsortium nations aren't going to cancel planned Typhoon orders for F-35 orders, but it is very likely that at least 3 out of the 4 Euro-consortium members will end up acquiring F-35 as well, with Italy acquiring the A model F-35 as well...

 

[StevoJH]

Typhoon procurement predates the F-35 so of course Britain is still procuring Typhoon.

The Euroconsortium nations aren't going to cancel planned Typhoon orders for F-35 orders, but it is very likely that at least 3 out of the 4 Euro-consortium members will end up acquiring F-35 as well, with Italy acquiring the A model F-35 as well...

They will also be carrying out different roles, in the RAF at least. The way i understand it is that the Typhoons will be the air defense fighter and the F35's, will primarily be used as strike fighters replacing the Harrier GR7/9.

Though they will carry out Air Defense when embarked on the carriers and should be very capable of carrying out that role with Meteor, AMRAAM and ASRAAM.

 

[Marc 1]

And yet Britain is procuring both. Some countries are only procuring the f35B because there is no alternative. It's a captive audience so you can't really draw a fair comparison.

Politics. The the poms are contractually bound to develop and acquire the 'phoons - and they have been offloading to the Saudi's (?) as many as they can (mostly due to cost containment and restructuring, but I'm sure it hasn't been forgotten that they are a 4.5 gen machine and the F35 is 5th).

Besides, the poms along with other developing nations have a vested interest in the Typhoon succeeding (future sales) - and it wouldn't look good if the Typhoon was dumped by one of the countries that paid to develop and produce it.

 

[ASFC]

Politics. The the poms are contractually bound to develop and acquire the 'phoons - and they have been offloading to the Saudi's (?) as many as they can (mostly due to cost containment and restructuring, but I'm sure it hasn't been forgotten that they are a 4.5 gen machine and the F35 is 5th).

We haven't offloaded any to the Saudis-as it stands we have to take all 232, however we can sell some on later........we have however 'given up' earlier production slots so that the Saudis can have 24 of theirs sooner, but we still have to take those 24 later on. Its little details like that the press seem to forget when they discuss Typhoon issues here in the UK.

 

[swerve]

We haven't offloaded any to the Saudis-as it stands we have to take all 232, however we can sell some on later........we have however 'given up' earlier production slots so that the Saudis can have 24 of theirs sooner, but we still have to take those 24 later on. Its little details like that the press seem to forget when they discuss Typhoon issues here in the UK.

The new head of Eurofighter has been quoted as saying that the British share of Tranche 3A will be 40 aircraft, including the 24 which are scheduled to be tacked on to the end of T2 to replace the 24 production slots given up for the Saudis. That could mean either that our last 24 are postponed, or that we end up with 208 - assuming, of course, that T3B goes ahead.
Typhoon Partners To Split Tranche-3 Buy - Defense News