Pak-fa, is a matter of pride for Russia, thats why i believe it will be in service someday.
whoever, i've my doubts if it'll be able to compete with F-35/F-22.
Russia to get SU-35 by 2011
- Thread starter F-15 Eagle
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whoever, i've my doubts if it'll be able to compete with F-35/F-22.
Crusader2000
Banned Member
Oh, Russia can't afford to give up on the PAK-FA................It would likely be the end of being a major weapons supplier to India for one. Which, is already purchasing more and more Western Equipment by the day. Further, the US already has 5th Generation Fighters and China is working on them.
In short with no 5th Generation Fighters. Russia would become a minor player in World Fighter Aircraft Market.
Remember, no army can win on the ground without Air Superiority.
On the other hand the Su-35 offers little more than the current Su-27SM. Neither, of which can handle the Raptor. But, could hold there own against 4 or 4.5 Gen Types nonetheless.............
Crusader2000
Banned Member
Its more than pride its a necessity. If, Russia is to maintain its place in the world as a "Major Power". Otherwise, countries like India and China will pass it by and quickly...............
It's quite funny to see how you guys use generation definitions to compare how good a platorm is. and escecially when it comes to "4.5" and so on.
i bet the eurocanards will be better than "5gen" chinese platforms.
second.
piliots, tactics,support,weaponsystems,net-centric capabiltiy softerware, and so on, is very important factors that can' be measured by the generation definitions.
i bet the eurocanards will be better than "5gen" chinese platforms.
second.
piliots, tactics,support,weaponsystems,net-centric capabiltiy softerware, and so on, is very important factors that can' be measured by the generation definitions.
.
I agree 100% all of the above play a huge role.
With Russia's Pak-FA, I just need some proof with Russia still producing upgraded Flanker in 2009, there not showing anything else.
China spending more on R&D but nothing to sink you teeth in either so I guess we wait and see.
EF2000, Gripen, Rafale, all good aircraft but the key is the training.
You'll probably not see any PAK-FA in operative service before 2020, (11 years) and probably not antire wings in service before 2025. so Russia needs upgaded versions right now. same goes for the exports.
I see you don't pay attention to the numbers.
24 Su-30MK2 only replace their F-16s. Iirc they also have F-5s and M2Ks to replace.Vietnam has a lot of old Fishbeds to replace. They already operate some Flankers. So it wouldn't be a bad choice. Funds are indeed questionable.
10-15 years ago the technology didn't exist.Really, I think the Su-35 just came at the wrong time............To bad it didn't become available 10-15 years ago.
Haavarla
Active Member
Spot on zeven!
I'm impressed with the fact that several on this forum chose to ignore what zeven just pointed out
.Feel free to clovn around and disregard every thing Russian official says..
The time table on the PAK-FA is at this point very muddy.
And there seems to be no larger order on Su-27SMs at this moment, perhaps we'll see one more regiment in the near future but i find it unlikely..
It's a entire decade up to 2020!
Yeah right.. a whole decade without any new procurment.
Could those 60 come on top on those 24-36 earlier ordered?
I find Putins statement logical in this respect, Russia probably will procure Su-35 right up to 2020.
Sukhoi confirms Su-35 deliveries to Russian Air Force in 2011
Thanks
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Hi Feanor
Do you think Yemen might be a future customer one day?
Maybe one day if Kazakhstan retires there Mig-31 maybe another future customer.
Peru's mining industry is picking up some mixed in a little natural gas and you might have another. Chile keeps picking up Vipers and other goodies so Peru isn't going to seat back forever.
By M2Ks do you mean Mirage 2000's? Venezuela doesn't fly that type I think only Mirage V's some years back were rig for anti-ship missiles, not sure what state there in currently.
Do you think Yemen might be a future customer one day?
Maybe one day if Kazakhstan retires there Mig-31 maybe another future customer.
Peru's mining industry is picking up some mixed in a little natural gas and you might have another. Chile keeps picking up Vipers and other goodies so Peru isn't going to seat back forever.
My bad. Yes I meant Mirage Vs.
I don't think Yemen is likely. They said they wanted more Fulcrums recently, and mentioned the MiG-35. They already fly the type so it's a much more logical choice. I don't know about Kazakhstan. I'll do a little digging on their plans.
I don't think Yemen is likely. They said they wanted more Fulcrums recently, and mentioned the MiG-35. They already fly the type so it's a much more logical choice. I don't know about Kazakhstan. I'll do a little digging on their plans.
PAK-FA for India yes but look ... India is keen to keep its Su-30MKI fleet up to date ... so most of the Su-35BM subsystems except for airframe will make its way to India airforce and I belive even few regiment of Su-35BM itself as you sow they recently extended order and bought 40 Su-30MKI of the shell.
India will not purchase F-35 it has its own development program similar to F-35 and there is PAK-FA above all ... so some tehnical coorperation most likely with EU nations and Israel with Russian help in construction is max I see concerning that ...
China J-13 and J-14 ... uh ... I dont know about you but I have no faith in China aerospace industry whatsoever ... because look ... after so many years they are still not able to produce fighter or engine on their own .. all of its military fleet are copy-paste or done with the help ... so no points for them ....
J-11B is no where near Su-35BM and with two uncertan programs I see them as big buyers of Russian equipment once more since they did not menaged to produce quality product on their own no matter its politics not to rely on Russia again .... more to it because of its copy-paste policy and industrial espionase no nation Russia or Western want to have any kind of deal with them and they are failing behing ... so just to keep up they will need to buy ...
They basically produced J-10 on their own. They got some help, but they did all the work in designing it and such. Same with JH-7A, which is now favoured in PLA over Su-30MKK. And JH-7A is not copied off anything. They certainly have a whole host of turbofan engine projects that are developed or close to finishing development. And as I have said before, J-11B is not an espionage, since China paid for the ToT of flankers and also the royalties for 200 units.
India won't get into the JSF Program while it insists on full technology transfer.
None of the partners (and they all have a say) will agree to unfettered release.
I dont want to arguee infinite with you ... I have read timesly that J-10 is developt with Russian and Israel help and I belive it ... you dont ..
They can favour MIG-21 for all I care ... but if they like JH-7A so mutch (I like that plane a lot btw) than I sugest they retire all Su-27/30 fleet and continue making JH-7A forever .... LOL
I would not put my hand in fire for that sentence only because at the moment I can not answer.
I have being hearing this same sentence for years now and jet China recently bought 300 AL-31 so ... thats good enough for me ...
I dont care about tot or not tot ... China did not developt it ... it copy-paste it ... and dont tell me it didnt just because IRST is 1mm to the right ...
The J-10 had allegedly airframe help from Israel, and the original production run used Russian engines. The rest is Chinese. Currently even the engines are iirc the WS-10A. So in other words, it's a Chinese development. However I doubt that either the J-13 or J-14 will be anything comparable to the F-35 or F-22. Where they stand in regards to the PAK-FA and Su-35BM remains to be seen.
What rest?? .. LOL I think you dont even realise what you just wrote ...
You wrote that Israel designed airframe for them ... and they used Russian engines to run it ... so all "the rest" is meant for subsytems witch is already funny buy this point but lets go even further ...
J-10 radar is based on some old Russian radar I belive ... its not designed from the strach and I wonder why ?? and do think about its missiles for a moment ... now that moment has pased do you really think China has designed anything on their own ... ??
We are badly oftopic now ... but in J-10 Russian engines are used ... keep that in mind ... I had mutch faith in WS-10 witch btw mysteriously dissapeared and before you even realise whats going on you have brand new shiny WS-10[A] more powerfull, reduced weight more control bla bla ... blocking your comon sense ...whait a sec ... so in case WS-10A proved failure for unknown reasons we will be blinded by some WS-10 pop-up .... more shiny and all .... well untill I see some China engine being mass introduced in China developt fighter ... I can not say they have they own product ....
And because of that hudge lagg I have strong belifes China will opt for another hudge shooping spree in Russian fighters.....
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From this it doesn't sound like you know Chinese military well, but are just stereotyping and country bashing China. How do you know for certain that J-11B is no where near Su-35 technology level or capability? China hasn't released any information about it. Remember Western propaganda keep saying how Soviet Union had backward technology and were no where near American technology level. Yet Soviet Union went toe-to-toe in reality.
Copy and paste policy really? Maybe thats what you think but lets gets some facts. J-10 initial canards idea and design J-9 started in the 1970's out dating Lavi. Using another countries powerplant doesn't make the J-10 not domestic. Eurofighter uses AIM-120 so it means its an European-American design then? JH-7A domestic, J-10 overall domestic but some gaps filled in with Russian & Israeli help or pointers. J-11 its license production of Su-27, China never said J-11B is there own design, they admit to using Su-27 but with domestic systems and weapons, so China altering an Russian license production fighter is considered copy? Even if its license production, but with Chinese input?
Need to buy? Russian shopping spree on fighters? If you haven't notice Russian-Chinese military purchasing is dropping every year. Its getting less each year. If they need shopping for fighters then why hasn't China had follow on orders with Su-30MKK3? Or Mig-29, Mig-35, Su-34 then? Why do they mass produce J-10 and JH-7A, right they know their fighters are inadequate yet they still produce them. Western nations? Why dont you say White people technology then? Im sick of people saying Western technology, it makes me laugh, its takes the whole Europe, America, Canada, Australia to make it superior to China and Russia?
M1 Abraham to be off topic uses German Cannon, and British Chobham armour, so using these parts considers it to be a German, British design then? and not american?
Off topic but had to clear some bias and lack of facts and information.
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