But France does not have the single Aster system. It has at least 5 different surface-air missiles in production, from MANPADS up to Aster 30, plus others in production in the UK in French-owned or partly-owned firms (it's hard to separate W. European industries sometimes), & others under development.
Resurgence of the Soviet Union?
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No, only about 70% of the population of the UK own houses, & most Japanese (all my Japanese relatives own their own houses or flats, for example). But this is irrelevant. Those who rent suffer from rising land prices, & gain when they fall. Land values in Japan collapsed because they were inflated to unsustainable values, creating immense economic problems. They are now sustainable, & at a healthy level. The problem is not the collapse (unavoidable, because of the excessive level previously reached) but the bubble. The bubble was the problem.
A small minority. You really don't get the difference between shifts in wealth & the creation of wealth, do you?
Until last year, exports were booming. Why do you think all those foreign workers went to Japan? To work in export industries, for the most part! The recent slump in exports has coincided with, & shares a cause with, a slump in raw material prices. What's the oil price now? You are cherry-picking points on curves, mismatching them. That is dishonest.
Look up real GDP per head in Japan. You might even find it adjusted for terms of trade, if you look hard. As I said, over 20% growth per head from 1990 (not 1989 - a bit more from then) to 2008. It will be lower this year. We don't know by how much yet, but unless everyone is totally wrong about the scale of the world slump, Japanese incomes will still be higher than 20 years ago.
Private investors did start the aviation business in W. Europe, & own most of Airbus. Airbus has made very big profits, overall, & the governments which lent it money have got all their money back, plus much better interest than they pay on their national debts. It's been a very good deal for them. The recent losses have barely dented the long-term record of profitability. W. European military aircraft are made by private firms. Look up who owns Finmeccanica (70% private), BAe (100% private), Dassault (Dassault Aviation 91% private) & EADS (81.56% private).
Take away oil & gas, & Russia would be bankrupt. What does it export except raw materials & weapons? BTW, I suggest you look at Russias foreign currency holdings in the last 18 months, & see how much they've gone down. They no longer cover foreign debts.
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They get quite a bit of cargo contracting don't they? The An-124 has proved useful for getting NATO supplies to Afghanistan while the air gap is filled. But they don't sell that many planes, which is the main point. They'll never compete with EADs and Boeing internationally.
That's what i've been trying to convey (poorly), thanks for phrasing it much better Swerve.
Ok. Those 8000/4000 are only there becuase US kicked the door open for them to enter into theater. There is zero percent chance of UK/France going alone with that much force anywhere on uncertian outcome.
Georgia example is different. it was funded and trained by West/Israelis to tune of billion dollars. Russia hasnt done thing like that in 21st century.
There is zero percent prejuidice. Facts should be acknoledged.
We are here discussing definition of medium sized power and superpower.
Food like Energy is very important factor.
You are still not getting my point. why do u think Russia raised the price of Gorskhov by $3B. why Chinese IL-76 priced was doubled? why Su-30MKI inflation adjustment percentage was changed? why Mi-17 new deal priced is triple of orignal quote for IAF. If you think harder you will get the answer. Russia have plenty of customers if it adopts Western busines practices. You cannot burned your banks with long term fixed price deals.
You cannot change the current fact. Glosnos has 20 satellites but Galileo has 1 satellite and that due to cheap soyouz launch. Future economic of Russia is much brighter than medium sized powers. You are mistaken about alot of things.You do realize that most of those ten years were not spent producing the sattelite. And even if the prices are raised (of course they'll be raised, inflation and all) it won't stop the program. Therein lies the key difference. The GLONASS system was already operational once. In iirc 1993. Now it's inoperational, and slowly being brought back up to strength. What's that a sign of?
This happens in every large country from India to China. Every country has specail interests and lobbies that enrich itself at cost of society.
It has nothing to do with a Superpower definition.
Every country is losing jobs faster. but Russia is not creating debt and most of its jobs when economy returns will come back but Medium sized countries have no hope.
Do you know why he is using such langauge in international diplomacy. Because he already knows that it is a declinig power and it has no effect on Russian prosperity.
Helicopters are the backbone. Look at China earthquake.
LGB does not mean precision strike ability in modern sense when you dont know what to hit (you need power netcentric sensors for that)and with in meters of target and heights and range well above SAM system.
They arent copy anyone. thats for sure.
It is better to have dead industry than debt ridden industry. I guess you havent wakeup to 21st century economic reality.
They may not need it currently. Putin has said he doesnot need anyone help in IT sector.
I am of firm belief construction is the key indicator of rising power. Look at China and India. They are building infrastructure and housing. you cannot say the same about medium sized powers like Japan/Germany/UK/France.
do you think buiding cars, Television, Cellular phones are wealth creationg. They are evey more disposable than housing. u use energy , human resources to convert imported raw material into a depreciable product.
What was average Oil price in 1990s and what is avg in 2009? It is 4 times. These people have been living for long time.
How it is going to be higher in 2008 than 1990. There is no logical reason for that.
Japan exports are now even less than it was in 1990s but imput costs have risen.
They are owned privately but subsidized by state.from banking system to keeping Top Universities to produce graduates for them.
Infact states are biggest buyers for there overpriced goods. Every thing is interconnected.
It is not Oil & Gas alone. They play part in exports but there alot of other things. Just the train and pipeline infrastucture is second largest in world.
Currency holding are pretty good. about $390 billion despite paying western banks for Oligarchs stupidity.
Interesting. I did not know that France was a major SAM producer. I've never heard of any major exports of French SAMs. Thanks for the correction.
ORBAT = Order of Battle. It's a list of the units and formations that an army has. I don't know what the thinking is. And the number is before the current military reforms. So I don't know how many will be left afterwards, or how they will be organized. But you have to keep in mind that these forces are spread out pretty thin, given the territory in question. For an army over over 1 million, the numbers aren't all that large.
Some of it worse then others. My point was that things didn't instantly collapse. The actual collapse took several years after the USSR to set in. And only now are a few of the plants beginning to recover from it.
Are you claiming that price hikes due to domestic industry problems are a good thing? They're a sign of how poor the state of our industry is.
It has everything to do with internal stability. In terms of internal tensions Russia is far ahead of China and India.
You mean if the economy returns.
What do rescue operations in China have to do with long term logistics for a large scale deployment?
The CEP for the KAB-500 (which is what was used) is 4m according to warfare.ru
KAB CONTROLLED AIR BOMBS | Russian Arms, Military Technology, Analysis of Russia's Military Forces
Accurate enough for you?
Rubbish. Please tell me what the new organization is? As proof that you know what you're talking about. What is the new force structure planned for ground troops and airforce?
Bottom line being, our industry is screwed.
The point is that Russia is not doing well enough to attract people from abroad. If you're going to quote Putin, why don't you at least quote him in a relevant manner.
From the bottom . . .
The Mistral MANPADS is selling as a land & naval SAM (a few systems using the same missile) & helicopter-launched AAM. Bought by 40 armed forces in 27 countries.
The Crotale system is still around, much updated, now with an upgraded VT-1 missile. The VT-1 has been quad-packed in the new Sylver A35 launcher, showing that it's still considered current. In production for replacement rounds for existing users, & being marketed for new naval applications. Last land-based sale I know of was 2003. Quite a few customers.
The VL MICA missile is being marketed as a naval & land-based SAM. At least two export customers so far.
Aster 15 for naval use. In service. Exported.
Aster 30 for land and naval use. In service.
Aster 30 Block 1 - so far only land-based. Anti-TBM capability. In production.
Aster 30 Block 2 - a misnamed new missile. Under development, ABM-capable.
This does not include missiles built only in the UK or Italy by (French-dominated) Thales & MBDA, of which at least 4 types are in production, & another under development. All the types in production have been exported.
You demonstrate your economic ignorance by this belief. As with all all other investment spending, infrastructure construction is only valuable up to a certain point. Japan grossly over-built for years, & as a result has many beautiful, smooth, perfectly-maintained - and empty - roads. Been there, seen them. Same for much other infrastructure. Maybe they'll be useful one day.
Of course there is a logical reason. Japan is producing more than in 1990. It's that simple. And it is not true that Japan exports less now than in 1990. By 2004, it was exporting over 50% more than in 1990. Adjust for export price changes, & the value was a little under 50% more. All the data are published. The value of exports increased slightly faster than the value of imports.
Statistics Bureau Home Page/Chapter 18 Foreign Trade, Balance of Payments and International Cooperation
Current US dollar oil price is double what it was in 1990, much less than in 1981 - but general prices have risen, & exchange rates have changed. In yen, the current oil price is only 30% higher than in 1990. In the meantime, Japanese energy consumption per unit of GDP has fallen. Allow for yen inflation since 1990 (slightly positive overall, inflation in the early 1990s more than cancelling out later deflation), & real oil prices for Japan have risen maybe 15%. Big deal.
Nonsense! BAe & EADS sell far more abroad than in their home countries.
Infrastructure doesn't pay for imports - and the road network is very poor. Stop cherry-picking. Currency holdings no longer cover overseas debts.
Roberto, you're a waste of bandwidth.
No, I deliberately left it out. The missiles are out of production. Current users are either retiring it, getting by with reconditioned missiles, or using the Thales VT-1 missile (it is compatible) in Roland launchers.
Very true. BAE is the largest vehicle producer in the world at the moment (MRAP production may have altered that slightly, figures I used were from 2007) and it's home market (Britain) certainly doesn't account for most of it.
I lol'ed at the last bit.
I think in the list of SAMs that France produces it is only fair to point out that the Aster's are partially British and Italian developed, but mostly buy French dominated companies.
I think that the Starstreak also deserves a mention here, MANPADs in production and use with the British army but developed by Thales (French company) by it's UK arm (My neighbour is in charge of the project :S).
He was banned before for spouting (mostly-not always) nonsense. I'm surprised he has been let back in!!!
It is such a schoolboy error though to claim that BAE and EADS are supported solely by their home markets.......BAE especially sell more to the US DoD than to the UK MoD!
That's not his only error, as others have pointed out. His "unique" views on economics and geopolitics as well as an almost entirely incorrect grasp of much of what he says relating to other countries would indicate to me spouting has not been stopped yet. Let's not forget inability to overcome prejudice and taking his own opinion as fact.
/rant.
I can't believe BAE and EADS are under fire for being supported by their home markets when many Russian defence companies have been almost entirely supported by the USSR for over 40 years, many still do to this day.
ASTER
To my knowledge the engagement envolope of the ASTER30 is beyound 120km, the weapon is quided towards it's targets, terminating with active radar homing.
We are are talking about a missile, in the case of ASTER15 (The A30 is a A15 plus a booster), that have demonstrated abillity, in short range engagements, to physically hit fast drones at relative speeds of more than mach4, a missile that due to it's PIFF-PAF technology can makes turns at nearly 90 degrees.
The approch of the ASTER30 against a distant target, can due to it's guidiance f.ex. be an optimal high altitide flight, terminating in a steep dive as the target get's into range of the onboard radar seeker, if you cannot defeat the seeker, you will have to avoid a high speed, highly agile missile that's designed to and can intercept sea skimmers performing complex evasion manouvers - and that is unlikely.
I would be much surprised if the Russian ESM,ECM, ELINT and CECM tech is near that of France (F.ex. SPECTRA ).
To my knowledge the engagement envolope of the ASTER30 is beyound 120km, the weapon is quided towards it's targets, terminating with active radar homing.
We are are talking about a missile, in the case of ASTER15 (The A30 is a A15 plus a booster), that have demonstrated abillity, in short range engagements, to physically hit fast drones at relative speeds of more than mach4, a missile that due to it's PIFF-PAF technology can makes turns at nearly 90 degrees.
The approch of the ASTER30 against a distant target, can due to it's guidiance f.ex. be an optimal high altitide flight, terminating in a steep dive as the target get's into range of the onboard radar seeker, if you cannot defeat the seeker, you will have to avoid a high speed, highly agile missile that's designed to and can intercept sea skimmers performing complex evasion manouvers - and that is unlikely.
I would be much surprised if the Russian ESM,ECM, ELINT and CECM tech is near that of France (F.ex. SPECTRA ).
Two things I'd like to correct about this thread:
1) Russia is not a superpower, it is a former one and has taken a huge toll in power after 1991
2) Corruption in western countries is nothing compared to that of Russia. Russian corruption is legendary, its pretty much a normal part of everyday life. And last estimates I saw, bribes were something like 15-20% of GDP
1) Russia is not a superpower, it is a former one and has taken a huge toll in power after 1991
2) Corruption in western countries is nothing compared to that of Russia. Russian corruption is legendary, its pretty much a normal part of everyday life. And last estimates I saw, bribes were something like 15-20% of GDP
That actually not very accurate. With the exception of the nuclear weapons industry, the Russian MIC is far more dependent on foreign purchases then on the domestic market. The domestic market is currently just too small. The plants and enterprises that didn't win export orders in the 90s simply went under like the OTM tank factory.
I'd read recently that Sukhoi was having major difficulty and was being kept afloat so MiG didn't effectively have a monopoly on the aerospace sector. Inaccurate?
Japan is small country. it cannot expand like China/India and surely like Russia.
Japan is not producing more than 1990s. Car sales are half in 2008 what it was in 1990 in domestic market.. Moreover. Bill Clinton forced them to move most of Japanese Auto manufacture inside US. Japan exports and industrial value is way lower. In those times Japanese were atleast producing F-15J & F-2. Now every thing is closed down. It is completely dead civilization. It has no hope in catching in anything be it in space race, sports or military moblization.
Energy consumption has not gone down but People standard of living has gone done. Why do you think 660cc cars are so popular. Dont believe in false statistics of inflation. If Inflation in resource and food surplus countries like Russia and China is there. Japan cannot be less. unless they are subsizding things. thats why they have that huge debt to GDP ratio.
yes they sell far abroad. because they have acquired subsidaries in foreign countries and have investments abroad. You should look at debt side of balance sheet.
Infrasturcture dont pay for imports. when you have world class infrasture. most of things move quickly and investments goes further into economy. How much was invested in Russia and China from abroad in 2008 figures. It is almost 10 times of Japan.
Russia supplied 55 chopper into Venzuela in less two years and produced 120 per year. They have no problem with Sukhoi/Mil/Ilyshin. It is just new econmic reality.
how much do you know about China/India?. Russia is still 80 to 90% single ethinic. Infact US has world largest population in prision along with big gun problem but it does not effect its super power status. Super power societies by definition are more violent than peaceful like Japan.
sustaining round the clock helicopter operations for weeks. large scale deployement needs machines capable of it.
It does not mean precision strike. Precision strike means you know the target. Su-24 cannot find tank columns with its radar.
It is very simple. Western model of force structure will bankrupt nation without succeeding in war.
Every one industry is screwed. unless you are China. they are still industrializing without debt creation. India tried to leap frog China in Auto sector by buying JLR through debt. what is the end result.
The point is Putin said he dont need people in high tech area. He needs construction workers for Sochi olympics and natural resources extraction but no scientist or engineers or super expensive imports from World Top universities.
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