Resurgence of the Soviet Union?

[Feanor]

Please don't pile together the first and second Chechen wars. They were very difference both in terms of performance, and in terms of results.

And don't forget that there are other major countries who had to resort to cruelty in order to quell a rag tag insurgency.

 

[Palnatoke]

Please don't pile together the first and second Chechen wars. They were very difference both in terms of performance, and in terms of results.

And don't forget that there are other major countries who had to resort to cruelty in order to quell a rag tag insurgency.

Which is true. And I apologize for the somewhat agressive tune.

My bottom line is that there is far too much hype about russia, and that people read all sorts of historical dangers into her by mixing in the USSR. A good example is the "dependence on Russian gas". Which I think is bullocks, if the russians are sending gas at good price this way, it's a "thank you" and btw Russia is just as depended on the revenue as germany is on the cost savings.

Not making myself an expert on russian history, the 20th century were a bit hard on her, and it will take time for her to re-emerge to her natural position.
For the moment, I think Russia has far more to worry about at home than at abroad, and that instead of playing the "they are probably dangerous" game, we should make an effort to do our best to have russia develop into a - with all due respect - slightly better functioning country. Georgia, Chetnia and other problem spots I view as a sort of decolonisation process, which tend to be pretty brutal affairs as, I guess, Fenor alluded to above,

 

[roberto]

Define corruption. I'll agree that Japan has efficiency issues.

Corruption can be defined as the scale of wastage relative to size of GDP. Unlimited government and consumer debt creation is largest form of corruption. Money wasted R&D with no future benefit is kind of corruption.

For example. Galileo navigation can only be completed on time and within budget if it piggy back on Russian launchers. No amount of Top 500 universities with expensive faculty can make cheaper and reliable rocket launch.

What companies produce them, and are those companies at a net gain or loss? Were they at a net gain or loss before the crisis? You're not providing me any evidence here.

You have to look at big picture. Thanks to past 10 years of Tax surpluses. Russia gov does not need to borrow money untill 2011.no matter how much tax revenue falls down. while the rest so called medium powers like Japan/UK/Italy/Germany/France are piling debt on scale never happened in history.

Except that Russian GDP per capita is very small. And largely inflated by raw resources export. The recent crisis has even hit our currency hard.

It is not small when you consider lower taxes and $3 a gallon gasoline price compared to medium powers where its more costly.

Apples and oranges. Military efficiency and economic efficiency are two different things. Are you saying Britain or Japan would not be able to achieve similar results? (provided that they had bases nearby to support the effort)

Military and economic efficiency are one and the same thing. Think harder.
First Japan/British do not have 20,000 men well prepared to invade at single place. They had to assemble 20k men from around the country. They neither has the ability or the money to do it on less than 24hr notice. dysfunctional demoractic government dont allow it.

What a load of crap. How many troops were used by Russia in the active combat phase of the operation? What complex weapon systems were involved that Britain or France do not posses? And please explain why the VVS performance was so unbelievaly shitty.... nowhere near on par with your typical Western airforce.

I said. Russian used simple weopons with WW2 tactics delivering dumb bombs. Complex weopons and bloated force structure of British/French dont allow them to conduct a cheap and rapid compaign. They are just not effective in occupying and maintaing large areas.

Belarus is competent, and industrially successful. Ukraine is another story, but don't underestimate their nationalism. I suspect that Ukraine will split in half along regional lines.

Belarus is neither competent nor industrial successful. It is very one dimensional country with too much dependencies built on Soivet era.

 

[roberto]

Dear oh dear! So many errors.

Japan has been importing foreign workers, not only of Japanese origin, from Latin America (& especially Brazil), but also China, the Philippines, & other countries, for years. The new payment to leave is for all foreign workers, who are mostly not ethnic Japanese. A condition of accepting the money is that you promise not to seek work in Japan again, to stop it being used for family visits to their home countries, & the like. It's a rather poorly thought out scheme to ease unemployment in Japan, which as far as I can see appeals mostly to those who've already sent their savings home & see it as nice little bonus, & those who no longer have a job in Japan.

I already know. alot of countries have outside people when economic is booming. US/Russia are No1 and No2. My point about Japan was that government has very low confidence about there own country future thats why they want to distribute money to workers to decrease population.

.
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The program is limited to the country’s Latin American guest workers, whose Japanese parents and grandparents emigrated to Brazil and neighboring countries a century ago to work on coffee plantations

The Japanese debt you speak of is domestic. It is debt owed by the Japanese government to Japanese residents. The government has used Post Office savings bank deposits to fund spending, rather than raising taxes. It's a surreptitious means of deferring taxation, which will have to be paid for one day by somebody, but it should not be confused with loans from abroad. Denominating that debt in US dollars is pointless. The debt is entirely in yen.

Japan exports are decreasing day by day as manufacturing moves out (this thing is not coming back).. The country is in state of terminal decline. That time will come very soon that they will not have hard currency left to import food and natural resources.

Japanese per capita income has not declined since 1990. Japanese per capita income grew slowly from 1990 to 1996, stagnated from 1996 to 2002, then grew from 2002 until last year. Last year, it was over 20% higher than in 1990. That's slow growth, but not a decline. Even with the expected slump this year, it will still be well above the 1990 level.

Japan stock and real estate market has never recovered from there 1989 peak. infact they are far below.
Stock and real estate is the single most source of increasing houshold income around the world . so how can there per capita income increase?.
bank deposits have zero interest rates.

 

[Grand Danois]

Corruption can be defined as the scale of wastage relative to size of GDP. Unlimited government and consumer debt creation is largest form of corruption. Money wasted R&D with no future benefit is kind of corruption.

For example. Galileo navigation can only be completed on time and within budget if it piggy back on Russian launchers. No amount of Top 500 universities with expensive faculty can make cheaper and reliable rocket launch.

define: corruption

Or more accurately: political corruption

 

[roberto]

define: corruption

Or more accurately: political corruption

Politcal corruption is irrelevant and is not right measure and those who are measuring has same credibility as those giving Triple A ratings to bonds. $4trillion worth of losses in so called transparent markets with several times of that in new debt creation. look at Austria/Scandanvian bank exposure to Eastern EU and baltic collapsing economies.. Russia has none.
for example Political corruption does not prevent China from obtaining 50 golds in Olympic and conducting the most successful games in history interms of construction and process. you can achieve big things
It is not a hinderance to become a superpower. Even US had Rockfellers in early 20th century.
Medium sized power like Japan/Germany/UK/France lacks the ability and money to amass thousands of troops in an area swiftly and decisevly. Infact i will not call them medium sized power. Medium sized powers are China and India. they can sustain thousands of troops without effecting there rest of economics.

 

[Grand Danois]

Politcal corruption is irrelevant and is not right measure and those who are measuring has same credibility as those giving Triple A ratings to bonds. $4trillion worth of losses in so called transparent markets with several times of that in new debt creation. look at Austria/Scandanvian bank exposure to Eastern EU and baltic collapsing economies.. Russia has none.
for example Political corruption does not prevent China from obtaining 50 golds in Olympic and conducting the most successful games in history interms of construction and process. you can achieve big things
It is not a hinderance to become a superpower. Even US had Rockfellers in early 20th century.
Medium sized power like Japan/Germany/UK/France lacks the ability and money to amass thousands of troops in an area swiftly and decisevly. Infact i will not call them medium sized power. Medium sized powers are China and India. they can sustain thousands of troops without effecting there rest of economics.

Your definition of corruption was wrong - a logical fallacy. True or false?

 

[Feanor]

Which is true. And I apologize for the somewhat agressive tune.

No need for apologies. Lets just keep this conversation healthy and intellectually sound.

My bottom line is that there is far too much hype about russia, and that people read all sorts of historical dangers into her by mixing in the USSR. A good example is the "dependence on Russian gas". Which I think is bullocks, if the russians are sending gas at good price this way, it's a "thank you" and btw Russia is just as depended on the revenue as germany is on the cost savings.

Of course. But politically it's easy to make a hype over it, and it can certainly be useful. Our economy is currently very poorly off so I suspect that you will see a major cutting back on external adventures, and a refocusing on trying to deal with the crisis.

Not making myself an expert on russian history, the 20th century were a bit hard on her, and it will take time for her to re-emerge to her natural position.

I don't think there necessarily is a natural position, and if worst comes to worst there may not be a Russian country.

For the moment, I think Russia has far more to worry about at home than at abroad, and that instead of playing the "they are probably dangerous" game, we should make an effort to do our best to have russia develop into a - with all due respect - slightly better functioning country. Georgia, Chetnia and other problem spots I view as a sort of decolonisation process, which tend to be pretty brutal affairs as, I guess, Fenor alluded to above,

The probems are far too diverse to be solved easily, or with international pressure. There needs to be an internal force in Russia that can bring things in order. Currently the only clan I can see that has both the interests and capabilities for doing it are the surviving industrial enterprises.

 

[Feanor]

Corruption can be defined as the scale of wastage relative to size of GDP. Unlimited government and consumer debt creation is largest form of corruption. Money wasted R&D with no future benefit is kind of corruption.

Your definition of corruption is wrong.

For example. Galileo navigation can only be completed on time and within budget if it piggy back on Russian launchers. No amount of Top 500 universities with expensive faculty can make cheaper and reliable rocket launch.

Except that it provides independent capability, and there is no forseeable reason that we would cut off European nations from our launchers.

You have to look at big picture. Thanks to past 10 years of Tax surpluses. Russia gov does not need to borrow money untill 2011.no matter how much tax revenue falls down. while the rest so called medium powers like Japan/UK/Italy/Germany/France are piling debt on scale never happened in history.

Yes. The current government has enough funds to float the country on a pillow of money for 3 years. What happens when it runs out? Better yet, how will they keep the people from revolting? Internal stability is a major issue.

Military and economic efficiency are one and the same thing. Think harder. First Japan/British do not have 20,000 men well prepared to invade at single place. They had to assemble 20k men from around the country. They neither has the ability or the money to do it on less than 24hr notice. dysfunctional demoractic government dont allow it.

Neither would Russia, if we didn't prepare for it ahead of time. Fyi the troops were concentrated there before the war begun for a huge exercise in the NCMD. The exercise ended days before the war started. Not to mention that the NCMD had been preparing for this situation to explode for years.

I said. Russian used simple weopons with WW2 tactics delivering dumb bombs. Complex weopons and bloated force structure of British/French dont allow them to conduct a cheap and rapid compaign. They are just not effective in occupying and maintaing large areas.

The area in question is tiny, not large. The tactics used were not WWII, they were far more reminiscent of the Second Chechen War, and reflect the RMA that the current leadership is trying to enact. Not to mention that the performance of our troops was atrocious in many areas. Finally we did use PGMs, including Iskanders, and laser-guided bombs.

If you want to seriously discuss this further please start to refer to specific examples, specific weapon systems, specific units, and specific engagements.

Belarus is neither competent nor industrial successful. It is very one dimensional country with too much dependencies built on Soivet era.

The same can be said of Russia. In any event in terms of it's internal conditions Belarus is certainly far better off then we (Russia) are.

 

[roberto]

Your definition of corruption is wrong.

My definition of corruption is correct. as i already mentioned. i created my own with new measurement standards.
inefficiency is form of corruption. thats why Russia has 20 Glosnos satellites but medium sized powers have one experimental. hundreds of Russian transport are in use makng actual money but medium sized powers are sinkng in A-400M

Except that it provides independent capability, and there is no forseeable reason that we would cut off European nations from our launchers.

Indpendent capability. Certain things you dont allow others and make them dependent on your monoply. let see if medium sized power can actually finish it on time.

Yes. The current government has enough funds to float the country on a pillow of money for 3 years. What happens when it runs out? Better yet, how will they keep the people from revolting? Internal stability is a major issue.

There is always borrowng options. to extend and even in worst prediction Russia would better off. Revoltng is problem for medium sized power. thats why they are giving money to move out. Even Czech republc started after government collapsed.

Neither would Russia, if we didn't prepare for it ahead of time. Fyi the troops were concentrated there before the war begun for a huge exercise in the NCMD. The exercise ended days before the war started. Not to mention that the NCMD had been preparing for this situation to explode for years.

so do you think those medium size countries have 20,000 troops to park on borders for long time. Troops need rotation and logistics. If they do it there economy will collapse.

The area in question is tiny, not large. The tactics used were not WWII, they were far more reminiscent of the Second Chechen War, and reflect the RMA that the current leadership is trying to enact. Not to mention that the performance of our troops was atrocious in many areas. Finally we did use PGMs, including Iskanders, and laser-guided bombs.

One or two PGMs does not matter. I believe only tochka was used not Iskander or smerch. and only aircraft that can do PGM in Western sense is Su-27SM wth SAR modes or Su-34 with satellte guided bombs. the rest are dumb bombs carrier.

The same can be said of Russia. In any event in terms of it's internal conditions Belarus is certainly far better off then we (Russia) are.

Belarus is on doles of of Russia and IMF and you said it is better. U will need to have very deep understanding of independent power.
My whole point is medium sized countries are temprorary economic powers but not military powers. and top 500 unversties are meaningless measure as these expensve faculty/researcher/lawyers/bankers produced by them do more long term damage to economy than political corruption.

 

[StevoJH]

so do you think those medium size countries have 20,000 troops to park on borders for long time. Troops need rotation and logistics. If they do it there economy will collapse.

Since you keep using it as an example i'm fairly sure the UK has a formed Division sitting in Germany not doing much except detatching individual brigades to Afghanistan every now and then. Plus isnt there a ready brigade in the UK as a rapid reaction force?

There is your 20,000 troops, enjoy. Not to mention that unlike the UK Russia doesn't have a brigade deployed in A-stan at all times.

They also have Independent battalions in Cyprus, Brunei and sometimes an armoured unit in Canada.

 

[riksavage]

An economist on the BBC world service this morning called Russia a 'third world country with nuclear teeth.' Russian domestic productivity remains one of the lowest in Europe. Revenue is almost wholly dependent on oil and gas sales, other than that what else do we buy from Russia (vodka, tanks and caviar)?

The military by their own admission is antiquated. Something like 90% of the equipment in service is obsolete by Western standards (Quote: Janes Defence 1 April 09). Even with the planned upgrades the military will still be using 70% outdated equipment by 2015 (Janes again) . The Russian General staff have admitted openly (post Georgia campaign) that they would have suffered badly against a modern force - they currently have zero credible networked surveillance assets (UAV's) linked to fully integrated fighting units (radio systems are antiquated, no digital interfaces linked to senior commanders at the tactical level giving real-time intelligence).

The Russian defence industry still relies on foreign buyers, but according to credible in-country industry reports, it's dying a slow death. India is turning west and increasing it's military relationship with Israel. Without external buyers Russia can't afford expensive R&D time to keep up with US/European spending levels. The Chinese over the next 10-20 years will produce more sophisticated weapons systems for the international market, they already have a limited number of partially digitised brigades to test domestic technology on.

The Russian military remains top-heavy, far too many Generals and middle ranking officers. They need to reduce their officer Corps by as many as 200,000 (200 generals, 15,000 colonels, and 70,000 majors). Until this happens the Russian military remains a cold-war dinosaur. Take away nuclear weapons and they remind me of Iraq's army just prior to GW1

Any resurgence will require a vast culture change, which I'm simply not seeing.

 

[Marc 1]

My definition of corruption is correct. as i already mentioned. i created my own with new measurement standards.
inefficiency is form of corruption. thats why Russia has 20 Glosnos satellites but medium sized powers have one experimental. hundreds of Russian transport are in use makng actual money but medium sized powers are sinkng in A-400M

Roberto, just different priorities mate. How many russian airliners are used by the major airlines of the world? Even the Russian airlines are buying Boeing and Airbus products....Does this tell you anything?

 

[Falstaff]

Politcal corruption is irrelevant and is not right measure and those who are measuring has same credibility as those giving Triple A ratings to bonds.

Your very own definition of corruption is worthless unless you are able to say how many money is "wasted" in a country. You said your indicator was wastage in relation to GDP. What is wastage in your eyes and how much money is wasted e.g. in the UK and France?
R&D is wastage? Spending for education? Or what?

for example Political corruption does not prevent China from obtaining 50 golds in Olympic and conducting the most successful games in history interms of construction and process. you can achieve big things

Oh come on. You're saying that universities don't count for anything and then you're using Olympic games as a measure. Now that's absolutely wothless measure.

Medium sized power like Japan/Germany/UK/France lacks the ability and money to amass thousands of troops in an area swiftly and decisevly. Infact i will not call them medium sized power. Medium sized powers are China and India. they can sustain thousands of troops without effecting there rest of economics.

No, roberto, you are completely wrong about that. If any of those countries you name had a similar case they would be rather easily capable of amassing thousands of troops and to sustain them. Because the infrastructure is there and the ressources are there. What these countries lack, at least Germany and Japan, is serious power projection capability worldwide. But so does Russia.
As a sidenote, all those countries you are citing are economic powerhouses and despite decline will be in the forseeable future. As was said in another thread before, fiscal debt is a rather meaningless indicator. Japan and Germany for example loan from their people and the amount of private property far exceeds the amount of debt. Thing is, all these countries chose deliberately to not spend more of their GDP for the military. It's not a case of lacking ability, technology or anything else.

My whole point is medium sized countries are temprorary economic powers but not military powers. and top 500 unversties are meaningless measure as these expensve faculty/researcher/lawyers/bankers produced by them do more long term damage to economy than political corruption.

Well your our whole point is wrong. That you despise democracy is no secret, you proved that time after time. The so called medium powers have structural advantages that will keep them economic powers for a long time. And our useless researchers are part of that. Besides that, our universities also produce engineers, economists, computer scientists, and so on

 

[Feanor]

My definition of corruption is correct. as i already mentioned. i created my own with new measurement standards.
inefficiency is form of corruption. thats why Russia has 20 Glosnos satellites but medium sized powers have one experimental. hundreds of Russian transport are in use makng actual money but medium sized powers are sinkng in A-400M

Look at sales. How many Russian transport planes have been sold? How many competitors? Can you name a single medium-transport aircraft sale in the last 5 years?

Indpendent capability. Certain things you dont allow others and make them dependent on your monoply. let see if medium sized power can actually finish it on time.

Even if it's late, it won't matter. Because the point is that 1) it will be finished and 2) it will provide independent capability. Neither one of those is a given for the GLONASS. With the current situation it's unclear whether it will be 1) finished and 2) whether the ground equipment required to take advantage of it will be there.

There is always borrowng options. to extend and even in worst prediction Russia would better off. Revoltng is problem for medium sized power. thats why they are giving money to move out. Even Czech republc started after government collapsed.

First off I'm not talking about the government's ability to spend. I'm talking about jobs. They're being lost at record rates. Russia, in it's current form, depends on the Siloviki staying in power. If internal instability displaces them from power, it will be chaos all over again.

so do you think those medium size countries have 20,000 troops to park on borders for long time. Troops need rotation and logistics. If they do it there economy will collapse.

I think they can. They're certainly a lot better at providing logistics then we currently are.

One or two PGMs does not matter. I believe only tochka was used not Iskander or smerch. and only aircraft that can do PGM in Western sense is Su-27SM wth SAR modes or Su-34 with satellte guided bombs. the rest are dumb bombs carrier.

The Su-24M can carry PGMs. And the Iskander and Smerch were both used. It was a poor attempt to replicate the effectiveness of western air power on a weaker opponent. It worked to a limited extent, in that the VVS managed to deliver a decent amount of payload, and strike many targets. However it was not WWII tactics (or strategies). Nor was it mass numbers of troops occupying a huge territory. The numbers actually involved in the fighting were fairly small. Something like 5 regimental tactical groupings. The rest were deployed but not in combat.

Still waiting for your comments on specifics. And by the way, read up on current Russian military reform. Compare it to current Western-style armies. Who are our generals emulating?

Russian military thought has been dead since the 80's. it saw a short rebirth during the second Chechen war, with the greater increasing tactical flexibility, tactical delegation of air and arty, and closer cooperation between different unit types. However since then nothing more has come of it.

Belarus is on doles of of Russia and IMF and you said it is better. U will need to have very deep understanding of independent power.
My whole point is medium sized countries are temprorary economic powers but not military powers. and top 500 unversties are meaningless measure as these expensve faculty/researcher/lawyers/bankers produced by them do more long term damage to economy than political corruption.

Your point is wrong. Those medium sized countries are military powers, and economic powers, and will remain that way for the forseeable future (5-10 years). After that neither you nor me have enough information, education, or intelligence to predict accurately.

An economist on the BBC world service this morning called Russia a 'third world country with nuclear teeth.' Russian domestic productivity remains one of the lowest in Europe. Revenue is almost wholly dependent on oil and gas sales, other than that what else do we buy from Russia (vodka, tanks and caviar)?

A handful of our industries are productive, but in general yes.

The military by their own admission is antiquated. Something like 90% of the equipment in service is obsolete by Western standards (Quote: Janes Defence 1 April 09). Even with the planned upgrades the military will still be using 70% outdated equipment by 2015 (Janes again) . The Russian General staff have admitted openly (post Georgia campaign) that they would have suffered badly against a modern force - they currently have zero credible networked surveillance assets (UAV's) linked to fully integrated fighting units (radio systems are antiquated, no digital interfaces linked to senior commanders at the tactical level giving real-time intelligence).

Contextualize. The antiquated equipment is of secondary importance compared to the antiquated structure. The neighbors and potential threats hardly posses anything more impressive. However the force structure and doctrine are in need of major revising ASAP. And it's being done. It remains to be seen if something worthwhile is produced.

The Russian defence industry still relies on foreign buyers, but according to credible in-country industry reports, it's dying a slow death. India is turning west and increasing it's military relationship with Israel. Without external buyers Russia can't afford expensive R&D time to keep up with US/European spending levels. The Chinese over the next 10-20 years will produce more sophisticated weapons systems for the international market, they already have a limited number of partially digitised brigades to test domestic technology on.

Our military export has soared over the last few years, in particular in different markets such as Latin America, and Africa. In general the defense industry is in extremely poor state. Some parts of it are virtually dead. The two hopes remaining are that large orders being placed right now will help keep at least some of it alive, and greater cooperation and integration with international weapons development and joint projects (especially with European partners) will give it a second life.

The Russian military remains top-heavy, far too many Generals and middle ranking officers. They need to reduce their officer Corps by as many as 200,000 (200 generals, 15,000 colonels, and 70,000 majors). Until this happens the Russian military remains a cold-war dinosaur. Take away nuclear weapons and they remind me of Iraq's army just prior to GW1

With the important exception that Iraq could not hope to improve it's situation even if it wanted to.

Any resurgence will require a vast culture change, which I'm simply not seeing.

More then culture. It will require flipping the country upside down. Interesting times are ahead.

 

[Palnatoke]

Any resurgence will require a vast culture change, which I'm simply not seeing.

Russia is an old culture land, though brutalised and almost destroyed by men like Lenin and Stalin. I have no doubt that the old Russia will have a renaissence, though there will continually be a periode of turmoil and instabillity as the lingering essence of the USSR is dispelled.

 

[Chrom]

Chrom


Yes, the nominal size of Russia's economy is the size of the Scandinavien countries summmed up and Russia sure has more millitary than the scandinaviens.


France uses 2.6% of GDP, Russia officially spends 3.9%.

.
1998 - 2.2% GDP
2002 - 2.6% GDP
2003 - 2.6% GDP
2004 - GDP 16,778.8 rub, Defence budget - 411 billions. 2.6% GDP
2005 - GDP , Defence Budget - 528 rub, 2.7% GDP
2007 - GDP 33 b, Defence Budget - 775 - 2.4 %

Last year it was 1018 billion rubbles vs ~35 billions GDP - 2.9%. A clear increase, attributed to sharp rise of oil prices leading to big surplus of "free" money.

As you see, for the most part russian expendures (to GDP ratio) were very comparable to France and GB. Sometimes lower, sometimes slightly higher.

Excuse me, name one thing, besides oil and the like, that Russia produces that France can't. Infact name me one strategical commodity that France can't produce (I am very close at claiming; can't produce to world cutting edge standard, but I will hold that one).

strategic bombers, tactical missiles, SAM's is one example. GPS guided ammunition - another. Remember, GPS belongs to USA. Plus, many things can be produced - but at much higher cost, meaning inablity to field nessesary equipment in sufficient numbers. SSBN/SSN's, airforce, ground forces equipment. With sharply increased defence spending France can match Russia in any single of these areas (ofc, given 5-10 years buildup) - but it cant match Russia in all these areas in very same time. Not in foreseeable future.

I don't think that Russia's conventional forces are scaring for the moment, and the incident in Georgia don't count for much. The performance in Cetchnia 1st and 2nd does on the otherhand speak volumes about an army that resorts to cruelty inorder to quell a rag tag insurgency, which obviously gave them a run for their money.

Yes, yes. And what we should think about USA or Israel forces then? What they are even weaker than russian ones? Becouse, even after 5 years of occupation, they still bomb civilians and kill them in hundreds in single bombing run?

 

[Chrom]

Russia is an old culture land, though brutalised and almost destroyed by men like Lenin and Stalin. I have no doubt that the old Russia will have a renaissence, though there will continually be a periode of turmoil and instabillity as the lingering essence of the USSR is dispelled.

Believe me, Lenin and even Stalin werent something exceptional in the line of previous russia leaders. They even werent something exceptional compared to many other world or european leaders in the same time. For example Finland, after they civil war, purged "left part" of they population to even greater extent than Stalin during famous 1937 terror.
That is even no speaking about Hitler himself, who, keep in mind, come to power in one of the most civilized country ever.

 

[riksavage]

Russia is an old culture land, though brutalised and almost destroyed by men like Lenin and Stalin. I have no doubt that the old Russia will have a renaissence, though there will continually be a periode of turmoil and instabillity as the lingering essence of the USSR is dispelled.

Returning to the Janes article 4/09, it was interesting to read about the current culture amongst senior officers, which sounds like a direct throwback to the Tsar / Stalin era. Ones prestige (perception amongst the old guard) as a commander is not judged by what unit you command, but rather the size of your command (brigades, divisions etc.). Generals are reluctant to downsize and switch to smaller but better equipped and trained units, they feel a drop in number will have an impact upon ones personal standing within the military hierarchy and amongst ones peers.

This harks back to the belief of quantity over quality - fine during cold war stand offs, but not against asymmetrical foes who require a more surgical approach using highly trained assets supported by real-time intelligence.

 

[Palnatoke]

Chrom

Look for alternative figures on millitary spendings at

Russian Military Spending

And the CIA fact book.

strategic bombers, tactical missiles, SAM's is one example. GPS guided ammunition - another.

Well, I don't know about the will to build strategical bombers....
Storm shadow/Scalp (and gps guided)
ASTER
The french navy operates and have in production some of the world's most advanced subs.
Gallileo (which has obvious millitary applications)
ground forces equipment; I think the french has a full compliment there, including one of the most modern MBTs in the world.
I think the Rafale and mirage is up to world standard.
Modern sensor systems.
And then ofcourse you have the advanced missile suite that france is a world leader at.


I think the question is, can russia match france and not the other way around.

I hate these comparisons since I come off as anti-russian, but I feel that it's pretty cracy to pretend that a country that can hardly feed itself should be in comparison to one of the world's major economies with a technology and science headstart that's a light year long. In due time, as I said above Russia will arise to claim it's natural position, but that day is still long away. For the moment she is a 2nd-3rd world economy with some of the attributes of a superpower still intact.