Should Germany become a military superpower again?

[Falstaff]

First of all: Does the term "rhetorical question" sound familiar to you?

Goes to show what little you know, a bit stereotypical. I guess im am so Naive as to think that a nation like Germany should have another chance to obliderate an entire people.

I am truely interested to know what makes you think that present day Germany would start another WW. Please care to explain.
See, I have the feeling the only German you know is Hitler and the only thing you know about Germanies history is 6 dark years out of 1000.
And btw, in almost all countries in Europe the president (if they have one) isn't head of the government and doesn't decide whom to go to war with. This is a parliamentary decision in most countries, the concept is called separation of powers. That's how much you know about Europe.

I am a Texan i love my guns and my right to use them to protect my domain.I do not support Bush by any means and i am of Mexican disent. Any more questions? :duel

No more questions.

Didn't they have a military embargo in place before hitler, and they broke it to build their massive ships that they took to Poland and began Hitler's Campaign?If i am mistaken, then tell me how many WW's the Germans were part of? Let have them become superpowers to see them start a new WW.

However, let's count how many wars Germany was involved in during the last 60 years...hmmm. And how many wars have the US taken part in or started during that time. Now don't get me wrong, I'm a friend of the US. But if this is your line of reasoning, well, here we go.

 

[indiana46767]

First of all: Does the term "rhetorical question" sound familiar to you?



I am truely interested to know what makes you think that present day Germany would start another WW. Please care to explain.
See, I have the feeling the only German you know is Hitler and the only thing you know about Germanies history is 6 dark years out of 1000.
And btw, in almost all countries in Europe the president (if they have one) isn't head of the government and doesn't decide whom to go to war with. This is a parliamentary decision in most countries, the concept is called separation of powers. That's how much you know about Europe.


No more questions.

However, let's count how many wars Germany was involved in during the last 60 years...hmmm. And how many wars have the US taken part in or started during that time. Now don't get me wrong, I'm a friend of the US. But if this is your line of reasoning, well, here we go.

Can you kindly explain Germany's role in WWI.

 

[Falstaff]

Can you kindly explain Germany's role in WWI.

You're answering a question with a counterquestion? How convincing. There already are quite a few knowledgeable posts about that in this thread. And wikipedia happens to be relatively accurate concerning this matter. Enjoy!

 

[indiana46767]

You're answering a question with a counterquestion? How convincing. There already are quite a few knowledgeable posts about that in this thread. And wikipedia happens to be relatively accurate concerning this matter. Enjoy!

Here is what some historian say

WWI:

"Article 231 of the Treaty of Versailles that ended the Great War put the sole responsibility for its outbreak firmly with Germany and its allies, largely due to decisions made during the so-called July Crisis of 1914. On July 5 of that year, German Kaiser Wilhelm II gave his blessing when an Austro-Hungarian envoy asked him to back reprisals against Serbia after the heir to the Hapsburg throne, Franz Ferdinand, was assassinated in Sarajevo the week before."

http://www.dw-world.de/dw/article/0,2144,1279269,00.html


WWII

Well we all know what heppen there.

WWIII??

I hope not.

 

[Falstaff]

Here is what some historian say

WWI:

"Article 231 of the Treaty of Versailles that ended the Great War put the sole responsibility for its outbreak firmly with Germany and its allies, largely due to decisions made during the so-called July Crisis of 1914. On July 5 of that year, German Kaiser Wilhelm II gave his blessing when an Austro-Hungarian envoy asked him to back reprisals against Serbia after the heir to the Hapsburg throne, Franz Ferdinand, was assassinated in Sarajevo the week before."

Now you're scoring yourself off. You're quoting an article about what the Treaty of Versailles says and call it "Here is what some historian say". Very funny. Please care to really read what present historians think about the treaty, and please try to consider the circumstances in which this treaty was drafted.


And the question remains: Please explain what makes you think that present day Germany would start another WW. Is the only reason you can provide: They did it 70 (!) years ago, they will do it again. Is that it?

 

[indiana46767]

Now you're scoring yourself off. You're quoting what the Treaty of Versailles says and call it "Here is what some historian say". Very funny. Please care to really read what present historians think about the treaty, and please try to consider the circumstances in which this treaty was drafted.


And the question remains: Please explain what makes you think that present day Germany would start another WW. Is the only reason you can provide: They did it 70 (!) years ago, they will do it again. Is that it?

My point is that history tends to repeat itself.

 

[Falstaff]

My point is that history tends to repeat itself.

And that's your personal opinion or is there anything that backs your claim, esp. regarding the evil German warmongers?

 

[indiana46767]

And that's your personal opinion or is there anything that backs your claim, esp. regarding the evil German warmongers?

Well obviously you are getting upset, and well that was not my intention. Yes, it is my personal opinion, and its just that, an opinion.I do not have anything personal against German's and their people. You have excellent women though i will tell you that. For our sake, i really do hope i am wrong. Have an excellent Tuesday.

Regards - Indiana.

 

[Yeti]

Didn't they have a military embargo in place before hitler, and they broke it to build their massive ships that they took to Poland and began Hitler's Campaign?If i am mistaken, then tell me how many WW's the Germans were part of? Let have them become superpowers to see them start a new WW.

This was over 60 years ago! the German attitude to this has totally changed. Have you ever lived in Germany? Have you any idea of their current politics? I suspect the answer to both these questions is no, your level of ignorance is astounding as is the probable insular nature of your politics. Speaking as an ex member of the armed forces who served in Iraq and who's father served in WW2, your attitude does re enforce the rest of the worlds view of America and its significant uninformed minority.

 

[Falstaff]

Well obviously you are getting upset, and well that was not my intention. Yes, it is my personal opinion, and its just that, an opinion.I do not have anything personal against German's and their people. You have excellent women though i will tell you that. For our sake, i really do hope i am wrong. Have an excellent Tuesday.

Regards - Indiana.

You are wrong, but if that's your personal opinion, I'm fine with that. Perhaps one day you'll think it over, esp. now that you know about our indeed excellent women.

 

[kato]

Didn't they have a military embargo in place before hitler, and they broke it to build their massive ships that they took to Poland and began Hitler's Campaign?

... no, there was no embargo. There were stipulations in place due to treaties regarding tonnage and numbers, both during the Weimar Republic and after Hitler unified his posts in 1935. Some 60-70% of the WW2 German Navy was built long before Hitler came to power.

Also, the Navy wasn't really all that much involved with Poland, except in a symbolic manner. The ship that fired the first shot of WW2 was built pre-WW1 in 1905. Land borders and all that, you know?

 

[Onkel]

My point is that history tends to repeat itself.

And I guess you´re right. But not with always exactly the same counterparts. Let us not talk about WW I. I´m not saying germany was not responsible for the war, but it was not only in it´s responsibility- Europe awaited this war.

But back to your theory: The Germany of 1930 was a state with weak economic conditions, high rate of unemployment and unstable politcal conditions. After WW I some dozend small revolutions and the big financial Crisis had been seen. A lot of people felt humilated by the contracts of Versaille. That were in short terms the conditions that made Hitler rise.

Germany today is in contrast economically strong, politically stable, the unemployment rate is acceptable. In Difference to 1930 modern germans learned at school about the cruelties of Nazi-Germany and were socialized to not glorify war and to respect their neighbours. A last point: Germany is not even interested in becoming a military superpower. We got some nuclear weapons in our arsenals (american bombs to be used by german bombers), but we will give them back.

So yes, history will repeat itself, but conditions of the 30s Germany will today be found in other countries, perhaps somewhere in south eastern europe or in the far east. Or in Venezuela? Think about it.

 

[Firn]

I think sometimes it is a bit futile to discuss such a topic, but the German members are trying here hard to enlighten others. It is certainly most rediciolous to extrapolate a "German aggressivness", even from the narrow history of WWI and WWII. It is most easy to demonstrate the general terrible "aggressive spirit" of the "American", "French" and "British" with the very same arguments.

 

[Misguided Fool]

So you think that the German population should have been exterminated to make place for a Israel like state after they surrendered in WWII?
Interesting opinion...

What like a White Holocaust?

No, but 6.5 million jews were killed for no good reason by the Germans. If there was justice, the minimal restriction that could've been applied was the movement of Germans to other areas of Germany as there had been after WW1. One could say it would foster resentment and another world war? Probably not, because a German state cut in half with a jewish state next to it and a massive leviathan to the east would more likely be a puppet of someone.

While i don't doubt that it is ridiculous and callous to blame Germans today for what happened back then, i don't think it could have been ridiculous OR callous to do it when it actually happened. It just didn't make much geopolitical sense :

 

[swerve]

...If there was justice, the minimal restriction that could've been applied was the movement of Germans to other areas of Germany as there had been after WW1. ..

They were moved. Several million of them.

 

[kato]

And they continued to move westwards...

10 million 1944-1945 (PL, CZ, SU -> GDR, FRG, AT)
3.5 million 1945-1989 (GDR -> FRG)
1.5 million 1990-1991 (GDR -> FRG)
2 million 1992-2003 (CIS -> FRG)

 

[backlash92]

What like a White Holocaust?

No, but 6.5 million jews were killed for no good reason by the Germans. If there was justice, the minimal restriction that could've been applied was the movement of Germans to other areas of Germany as there had been after WW1. One could say it would foster resentment and another world war? Probably not, because a German state cut in half with a jewish state next to it and a massive leviathan to the east would more likely be a puppet of someone.

While i don't doubt that it is ridiculous and callous to blame Germans today for what happened back then, i don't think it could have been ridiculous OR callous to do it when it actually happened. It just didn't make much geopolitical sense :

You have to remember that it was the NAZI's not the Germans who did this to the jews. yes the nazis were german but not all germans submitted to the nazis and many did not agree or like the persecution of jews much less Hitler himself

 

[Falstaff]

You have to remember that it was the NAZI's not the Germans who did this to the jews. yes the nazis were german but not all germans submitted to the nazis and many did not agree or like the persecution of jews much less Hitler himself

IMHO that's not an excuse for what happened. Although not all Germans were Nazis and although the NSDAP never were elected by more than appr. 44% of the German population, there were too many that were freeriders, too many that watched the Nazis with tacit approval and too many that didn't stand up when it became apparent what would happen. So I think- as a German- that the German people is to bear the blame, at least to a certain extent. Let's not just shift it to the Nazis, which were, as you mentioned, Germans. But I'll leave that to the historians now, as there are thousands working on exactly this topic. It's still an ongoing process here and it'll take some time to make clear what had happened.
Both of my grandfathers served in the Wehrmacht during WW2 and they never forgave themselves for however uninformed or ignorant they were not having seen what was happening (does this sentence make any sense?).

 

[Onkel]

You have to remember that it was the NAZI's not the Germans who did this to the jews. yes the nazis were german but not all germans submitted to the nazis and many did not agree or like the persecution of jews much less Hitler himself

O.K. that´s nice, but to easy. Most of those who didn´t agree didn´t oppose - Apart from the question if I had opposed - you know what happened to opposition in Hitlers Reich. They found themselfes easily on the scaffold or in a concentration camp -it needs a lot of heroism to face that threat.

But Kato and Swerve are right. Millions of germans had to move and leave their homes. Because of that, there is still some distrust between Poland and Germany- some polish people fear that Germany wants it´s eastern parts back. But I can proudly say this fear is causeless. Apart from some (sorry, mate) misguided fools nobody even thinks about this.

 

[Misguided Fool]

O.K. that´s nice, but to easy. Most of those who didn´t agree didn´t oppose - Apart from the question if I had opposed - you know what happened to opposition in Hitlers Reich. They found themselfes easily on the scaffold or in a concentration camp -it needs a lot of heroism to face that threat.

But Kato and Swerve are right. Millions of germans had to move and leave their homes. Because of that, there is still some distrust between Poland and Germany- some polish people fear that Germany wants it´s eastern parts back. But I can proudly say this fear is causeless. Apart from some (sorry, mate) misguided fools nobody even thinks about this.

Yes, but not for the creation of a Jewish state, but for the enlargement of Poland and for Russia to get the Kaliningrad Oblast.