Should Germany become a military superpower again?

[John Sansom]

Yes, Germany should become a military power again....but only within the context of alliance needs (NATO) and reasonable capacity.

Although the human memory is notoriously short, the horrific juggernaut of 1939-1945 wouild be less than welcome as a repeat performance even among the best of her friends.

 

[kato]

Yes, Germany should become a military power again....but only within the context of alliance needs (NATO) and reasonable capacity.

What would you call "alliance needs" and "reasonable capacity"?

Because if we take that in a narrow definition, that means Germany can cut all forces not intended or needed for defending its own territory in the then-current political climate. Within the modern Bundeswehr, around 50% easily i'd estimate, as well as about 75% of all procurement projects.

The alliance "needs" exactly what its members "give" it. NATO Article 5 is fluff. WEU Article 5 is far more demanding and important in that regard, and doesn't set "needs" either.

 

[John Sansom]

I get your point, Kato...but the term "alliance needs" is meant to indicate the unit need to effectively demonstrate flexibility of response in the face of pressures on the alliance. That flexibility has to be built in to any national defence plan.

Twenty years ago, who would have thought the presence of German troops in Afghanistan would be required? Is Germany's military capacity today being considered in the context of twenty years hence? Is consideration of that relatively distant time predicated on a continuing commitment to enduring relationships with current allies, and the understanding that realistically significant military strength as a contribution to the alliance is part of that commitment?

In those terms. Germany should and must become a recognized military power.....but not a super power.

 

[John Sansom]

Oh, yeah. Just one more quick one. The "needs" of an alliance are set by circumstance. Sure, paper is important in defining the general parameters of a commitment. True need, however, is the product of the fan and the other stuff coming together....often in unexpected ways.

 

[kato]

20 years ago? No one.
15 years ago - entirely different thing already, since Germany had a couple thousand men in Somalia then.

There is some uncertainty of course over the long term, but it's not like things need to be reconsidered every few years.
The Bundeswehr has been significantly reshaped only three times in the past 60 years - in its formative first 8-9 years until the final shape was decided on, then into a short-term transitionary state with the severe reduction externally forced on it in 1990-1993 by the fading-out occupation powers, and now again between 1996 and 2003 to hammer out the future outfit. We can talk about overall doctrine changes in the shape of the military again in say 2040.

 

[John Sansom]

Thanks, Kato. You and Feanor always offer something I can learn from. 2040? Sure, why not?

 

[kato]

To clarify and expand on it a bit: What was renewed/changed only three times so far is the capability set of the Bundeswehr.

Basically, between 1955 and 1963/64, a plan was drawn up "how to fight the Soviets". This plan would demand certain capabilities - along the lines "we need FACs for the Baltic Sea, we need close-support aircraft, we focus the army on mechanized combined-arms forces, we implement a helicopter-insertable paratrooper force" and so on.
This plan was then, subject to the budget, put in place over the next 10 years, and kept like that until 1990. Of course there were changes in how to implement it - add a division here, cut the FAC plan from 60 to 40 there, change the organization of home defense and give them some extra spare equipment from the field army, build a new MBT to replace older equipment, and so on. Adaption to external restraints. But the overall plan stayed the same.
In 1990, the Bundeswehr suddenly had to first absorb another military, and was - together with that - then cut by 50% until 1993, as demanded by the 2+4 and CFE treaties. By 1993, some capabilities had therefore been cut completely (such as elimination of CAS aircraft, or SRBMs), and a transitionary capability set had been enacted; this included formation of some non-specialized light infantry units already btw, and also of course a shifting of units into East Germany, and giving up the "defense belt"; first attempts at entering into peacekeeping were made.
By 1995/96, the first plans were set up to approach a future capability set for the Bundeswehr; first, dedicated special forces were added on larger scale, then brigade-scale infantry units were implemented. The Kosovo War and subsequent occupation added some experience. A number of capability concepts were played with for a while here and there, until the MoD sat down and had it all compiled and hammered out between 2001 and 2003 into a definitive structure (the "Concept of the Bundeswehr").

Which is now being implemented. Unit-wise, the change will be complete by next year, for the next ten years after that, proper equipment for that new structure will keep flowing in (much like was done in the first ten years after 1963/64 - set up the units first, keep using old or transitionary equipment until the ordered proper gear is there).

 

[CDN87]

I dont think that Germany should have any power at all, considering they started both world wars.

 

[yasin_khan]

I dont think that Germany should have any power at all, considering they started both world wars.

At that time Germany Facsit country and have done lots of thing.I n 20th century power war shown by power military and technology but today the senererio is change and power is shown by strong economy.

 

[F-15 Eagle]

At that time Germany Facsit country and have done lots of thing.I n 20th century power war shown by power military and technology but today the senererio is change and power is shown by strong economy.

Change? What is this change that you are talking about?nfloorl:nfloorl:

Power is still shown by military power and technology but you still need a strong economy. That was the same in the 1940s as it is today nothing has changed.

 

[Durendal]

As i said before I don't think Germany can become a superpower anymore, much as any other single European power.
Germany already is a major military power it has the largest standing army in NATO outside of Turkey and the USA.

 

[John Sansom]

Hi, CDN87, and here's an observation which might help to put things in perspective. WWI was indeed "started" by Germany, but it really had more to do with damn' near ancient systems of "local" de rigeur power struggles all kicked off by an assassination in Sarajevo. WWII was midwifed by the madness of Adolph Hilter, Herman Goering, Joseph Goebbels and the like through a political process they called National Socialism.

They were not unique in their dreadful lunacy. Guys like Joseph Stalin, Pol Pot, and quite possibly Kim Il Sung are examples of others. The Corsican artilleryman, Napoleon Bonaparte also hurled Europe and very nearly the entire world into the flames of war (but we are budddy-buddy with France today).

The Germany of today is not the Germany of 63 years ago. It has a very dark history indeed, but so do many other countries. Think for a moment of Chivington's attack on Black Kettle's encampment and the subsequent massacre of men, women, and children. How about Wounded Knee? In the UK, Henry VIII massacred Catholic priests with a very singular determination and, somewhere around 800 AD, Islam brought blood and the sword ro most of Spain.

I think--and of course this is a personal opinion--that while the sins of the fathers may indeed set the children's teeth on edge--you really do have to look at the children to make a reasonable judgement call, and not at the long-dead fathers

 

[nevidimka]

1 thing for sure, and I believe is a rule for all superpowers. Regardless of whether today's Germany is different that the Nazi's a superpower Germany would not toe the line nor be on cordial relationship with US nor Russia. They will play their own game and their own priorities. Just like the Soviet Union did, and how Russia is playing now. It would be a 3 way cold confrontation.

 

[proletarian]

Germans cannot be a superpower until they [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VSdxqIBfEAw"]learn English[/ame].

 

[Onkel]

A BBC Poll found out that 61 Percent of interviewed persons all over the world favour germany for its positive influence on the world, followed by Canada and GB. In France, Spain and Italy more than 80 Percent found Germanies Influence positive. I dion´t think it´d be better as a military super power.

CDN 87: 1. Germany didn´t start WW I.,
2. Don´t you think yourself that it´s silly to identify the Germany of 1939 with modern Germany?

 

[CDN87]

A BBC Poll found out that 61 Percent of interviewed persons all over the world favour germany for its positive influence on the world, followed by Canada and GB. In France, Spain and Italy more than 80 Percent found Germanies Influence positive. I dion´t think it´d be better as a military super power.

CDN 87: 1. Germany didn´t start WW I.,
2. Don´t you think yourself that it´s silly to identify the Germany of 1939 with modern Germany?

Not really no. I'm sure no one predicted the terror that followed 1939 Germany. Germans were happy that they finally had a leader, and look what happened. Who knows what could happen in their future if they were to rise to super power status again.

 

[Waylander]

So what is your conclusion?
We are an evil race waiting for another Führer to rise again?

I can surely feel the need for a new Reich deep in me...

There are not that many people still alive here who actually were adults during WWII.
The chances of us being more easily to become a new totalitarian and cruel regime anytime soon are as big as France again getting a new emperor who leads them on a rampage through the whole of europe.

And while Germany defenitely had it's share in starting WWI it was defenitely not alone.
And it didn't acted any different than the other european nations did for centuries.
Nobody had expected this to become the great war which ended the life of millions of people.

 

[F-15 Eagle]

Germans cannot be a superpower until they learn English.

LOL that is funny but I don't see how that has to do with anything.nfloorl:

 

[Falstaff]

Not really no. I'm sure no one predicted the terror that followed 1939 Germany. Germans were happy that they finally had a leader, and look what happened. Who knows what could happen in their future if they were to rise to super power status again.

Oh dear. And you're basing your claim on...
See, I guess you haven't dealt with German history apart from what you learned at school, and as in most countries that probably concentrated on the 1939-45 period. Your post clearly indicates that as you completely ignore the very special set of circumstances that were in effect in the post WWI (or Great War) and pre WWII years in Germany.
Now I don't suggest you read about German history (I for myself don't have any knowledge about Canada's history), but doesn't it strike you, for a start, that all German members of this forum answer the question with "no"? Doesn't that ring a bell?
However, I do suggest you don't do postings like that until you have at least some kind of knowledge about the topic.

@proletarian: Great stuff nfloorl:

 

[Tavarisch]

If you think about it, Germany really didn't start WW1. The assassination of Archduke Ferdinand by the Serbians was the kickstart.

Then, there is the issue of alliances. Austria-Hungary wants to invade Serbia because the Black Hand killed the Archduke, and calls in Germany as an ally. Serbia, on the other hand, have the Russians on their side. Russia, on the other hand, invited the GB and France to help them out. It was just an ugly mess of Alliances activating nearly at the same time.

The Arms race and political distrust amongst these nations could also be a catalyst. But, the same distrust did not turn the Cold War "hot".

The issue of racial disagreements and what-not will always plague this world and it is proven that it will always cause battles and wars. (Shiites and Sunnis anyone? Let's not forget the NSDAP either......)

Anyway, Germany can decide amongst it's people whether they want to be a superpower. They just need to know the responsibilities and the costs that are attributed to the superpower status. Personally, so long as Germany doesn't cause any trouble, it can be whatever it wants. (Hell, this applies to every other country out there.)