Royal New Zealand Air Force

A

Aussie Digger

Guest
Gibbo said:
After not expecting to be at the Whenuapai airshow I did in act make it. At least 3 of the P-3Ks had these 'objects' fitted - including one that was up on stilts with wheels up in 5 sqn hangar. I asked one of the guys behind the rope and he reckons it's a 'supplemental radar' - I quizzed him on the need for additional radar as I wasn't convinced he was giving me the full story - but he stuck to that! So I at least am none the wiser! AD - how 'educated' is your 'guess'? Can't be 100% but it seemed to be the P-3Ks without the more recent MX20 'turret' fitted that had these - don't know if that's relevant!?!
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The dark glass on the fairing should be a giveaway. Having seen more than a couple of electronic systems, up close, it seems to me, that only EO/IR and sometimes ESM systems seem to use the "dark glass" coverings. Radar (excepting of course FLIR) is usually encased in non-opaque fibreglass.

Transmitted microwave energy has no need to "see" through glass...

Anyway good airshow, fantastic weather & nice to see C17 for first time & Hornets again! Nice friendly C17 crew - particularly the female co-pilot ;)

A couple maintenance hitches (B757 in morning & C-130 in afternoon) but the techies worled wonders & rectified these for later displays. Only thing missing was 6Sqn sasprites - they've apparently got a big few weeks ahead & they've already got a/c out on RNZN deployments. They had a static SH-2G on show though. Other 'statics' were: FANC Casa 235; Aussie Customs Q300; Air-Affairs Lear Jet with towed targets onboard; Aussie C130J.

All hail the Hornet!:nutkick
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Yep, the RAAF Hornets seem to be getting better with age (in their airshow routines).

2011 might be interesting. You might even see a RAAF Super Hornet there... :)
 
S

stryker NZ

New Member
found out something interesting at the airshow while talking to one of our airforce officers. He said that although numbers of the NH90 are all but certain not to increase they are going to look into getting more a109s as in his view those were the choppers that were going to be getting the most use.
 
G

Gibbo

Well-Known Member
stryker NZ said:
found out something interesting at the airshow while talking to one of our airforce officers. He said that although numbers of the NH90 are all but certain not to increase they are going to look into getting more a109s as in his view those were the choppers that were going to be getting the most use.
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When I spoke to Wayne Mapp (now Minister of Defence) a couple of years back it was quite clear one of his 'pet ideas' was there should be a substantial T/LUH fleet for this very reason.

There's also the fact that the AW109will be heaps cheaper to operate than the NH-90. I guess we'll have to see what his white-paper coes out with.

Mind you at the time of our chat the T/LUH type had been spec'd but not decided - and he hadn't even heard of an AW109!:unknown Fortunately I had come prepared so was able to provide him with literature, as even at that point it was the fore-runner.:)
 
G

Gibbo

Well-Known Member
recce.k1

recce.k1

Well-Known Member
The book Kiwi Orions (available from here) simply notes that the underwing pod is an AN/ALQ-78, which is a passive ESM set. Further reading elsewhere (which also notes that this has been replaced by the AN/ALR-66) notes that it "detects and analyses low and high band radar signals" etc ... and "based on the parameters of the intercepted radar signal", the operator "can identify the category of radar (search, fire control, navigation, etc) and in many instances, the specific type of radar" etc. Some more details here under ASW section. Interesting, in that I wonder if we picked 'em up cheap off our cuzzies?
 
recce.k1

recce.k1

Well-Known Member
stryker NZ said:
found out something interesting at the airshow while talking to one of our airforce officers. He said that although numbers of the NH90 are all but certain not to increase they are going to look into getting more a109s as in his view those were the choppers that were going to be getting the most use.
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Maybe some new generation Blackhawk types would be the perfect "in-between" of the two types! ;)

Anyway good thing then we may get some more A109's?

Was speaking to an air force officer last year and he mentioned that the RNZAF Hueys were something like 93 or 96% operational in Timor Leste, which impressed the Aussies as their Blackhawks weren't near that figure, he simply stated the Blackhawk's on board computers wouldn't let them fly at times (eg until problems were rectified). I dunno mutch about that topic but if so, I suppose the much more complex NH90's will be telling the RNZAF aircrews the same things at times, which doesn't bode well if we only have 8 airframes.

(Perhaps we might have to send 4-5 to Timor next time to ensure we always have 2 available)! :confused:

Roll on more A109's then etc to ensure we have enough airframes to take to the air!
 
K

KH-12

Member
Something like the AW139 would be a good intermediate type similar capacity to the UH-1H and alot cheaper to operate than the NH90, the A109 has a pretty limited load when it comes to ferrying around fully kitted out troops and apart from special forces (SAS) work the NH90 would be the prefered platform. Not sure however that there would be a willingness to take on another helicopter type.
 
E

exported_kiwi

New Member
The RNZAF isn't an Air Force, it's an air farce. Any thoughts to the contrary are wrong! It's high damn time my country took ownership of her own defense and stopped relying on the goodwill of other nations to do our job for us. I, for one, am absolutely disgusted with what's going on in NZ these days, and refuse to live there again until they "rein in" their idiocy and start providing for the defense of the nation. This is the least they should do, as an electorate and as a government. Absolutely abysmal is my opinion of every damned government we've had since a can remember
and I think the first one was Holyoake.:lul
 
K

KH-12

Member
exported_kiwi said:
The RNZAF isn't an Air Force, it's an air farce. Any thoughts to the contrary are wrong! It's high damn time my country took ownership of her own defense and stopped relying on the goodwill of other nations to do our job for us. I, for one, am absolutely disgusted with what's going on in NZ these days, and refuse to live there again until they "rein in" their idiocy and start providing for the defense of the nation. This is the least they should do, as an electorate and as a government. Absolutely abysmal is my opinion of every damned government we've had since a can remember
and I think the first one was Holyoake.:lul
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Your country being China :roll2
 
S

Sea Toby

New Member
The A109 is a bit small, why not buy the larger A139 or A149 if the NH-90s are so undependable. Another wrong procurement choice?
 
D

dave_kiwi

New Member
Verified Defense Pro
recce.k1 said:
The book Kiwi Orions (available from here) simply notes that the underwing pod is an AN/ALQ-78, which is a passive ESM set. Further reading elsewhere (which also notes that this has been replaced by the AN/ALR-66) notes that it "detects and analyses low and high band radar signals" etc ... and "based on the parameters of the intercepted radar signal", the operator "can identify the category of radar (search, fire control, navigation, etc) and in many instances, the specific type of radar" etc. Some more details here under ASW section. Interesting, in that I wonder if we picked 'em up cheap off our cuzzies?
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recce.k1 - thanks alot for the information. Certainly being bugging me since I saw the photo.

Have no doubt that it was indeed picked up from our Aussie cousins (with the "quiet approval" of the US), as they have replaced the AN/ALQ-78 with "wing tipped" mounted AN/ALR-66s on their AP3-C. (The other remote possibility being the Netherlands, as they "retired" their P3-Cs and passed them onto the Germans somewhere around 2006 / 2007 ). Any mention in the book when the RNZAF first acquired these ?

Although they of an "older" generation than the ALR-66, they certainly add to the P3-Ks capability -- some quick "googling" indicates that the ALQ-78 was "upgraded" so it could provide "targeting" information for harpoons :)s. Also, I am sure, some quiet discrete "recording" of all / any available "signals" is being carried out, so that the RNZAF can build up a "nice little library" ;)
 
recce.k1

recce.k1

Well-Known Member
Hi Dave-Kiwi

Alas all there was in the book was a "walk around" photo of said object and no other written details in the main text etc. I could be wrong but I presume they were acquired when some of the P-3's were quietly upgraded some 5 years ago or so now (eg either for or after Op. Troy in the middle-east)including the Wescam MX20 etc?

Try and track down some Op. Troy RNZAF photos, that might be an indicator (although said photos never really appeared on the NZDF websites - paranoid previous govt perhaps)?

Be interesting to see what the first of the current P-3K2 upgrades entails (maybe the alq-78 was an interim measure, to allow better inter-operability with coalition type forces), but then again I won't be holding my breath, the amount of secrecy involving NZ defence equipment upgrades is astounding!
 
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exported_kiwi

New Member
Nope, as my ID infers, I'm a Kiwi, but I live in China, hehehe! Doesn't stop me being a Kiwi and I, having served, voted and paid taxes for considerable years, have the right to comment on my countrys faults. Good observation on your part but sadly, incorrect. Have a great day!
Any hoooo, back on topic...........sorry folks!
 
A

Aussie Digger

Guest
recce.k1 said:
The book Kiwi Orions (available from here) simply notes that the underwing pod is an AN/ALQ-78, which is a passive ESM set. Further reading elsewhere (which also notes that this has been replaced by the AN/ALR-66) notes that it "detects and analyses low and high band radar signals" etc ... and "based on the parameters of the intercepted radar signal", the operator "can identify the category of radar (search, fire control, navigation, etc) and in many instances, the specific type of radar" etc. Some more details here under ASW section. Interesting, in that I wonder if we picked 'em up cheap off our cuzzies?
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Possibly, though RNZAF could also have acquired them direct from the USN.

This link:

http://www.forecastinternational.com/Archive/ab/ba0040.doc

Outlines that Australia did indeed acquire this capability for it's Orions. I suspect however the AN/ALQ-78 was replaced when they went through the "A" P-3C upgrade program and perhaps RNZAF acquired them then.

"Supplemental radar" indeed...
 
G

greenie

New Member
Sea Toby said:
The A109 is a bit small, why not buy the larger A139 or A149 if the NH-90s are so undependable. Another wrong procurement choice?
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Why not just keep the huey, we have 14 airframes , keep 7-8 and reduce the rest for spares , they are simple and dirt cheep to operate and we know everything about them.Why spend more money.
When it comes to the modern RNZAF I cant understand this fasination to get bigger and bigger, Huey to NH90, C130 to A400 . Why dont we get assets that our Allies dont have eg, ADF is getting NH90s so we get B414s to fill that smaller market, same could be said for the C130s, ADF will get Js or A400s , they lost their Caribos so we fill that market with C27s . We do this already at the Strat level , we carry pax and ADF does the big stuff.
I know this idea only works in la-la land but bigger is not better, (in relation to aircraft :) )
 
MrConservative

MrConservative

Super Moderator
Staff member
It is not unexpected that no more NH-90s will be bought (Other than potential Seasprite replacement circa 2015). With only 5 A-109’s and the fact that those five are likely to be worked harder than usual, it makes sense to purchase more. Any second tranche of A-109s will probably be cheaper than the initial contract. Another five airframes would make sense and be sustainable operationally.

However a cheaper option in these times of budgetary restraint is to retain around 6-8 of 3Sqd’s Huey’s and put them through a local Huey II programme to life extend them past 2020.

Of course Greenie is right about retaining some ‘as is’ for the time being. Thinking caps on here, but around six Huey’s could be flown and maintained by RNZAF Reservist crew which would give the CAF’s enhanced Reserve idea ‘wings’. But if the money is there I would plum for the A-109 over the Huey in terms of regular AF ops.

Introducing the A-139 into the rotary fleet has manpower issues. It immediately stretches ground and aviation trade training by 33%. Where as the Huey has the institutional knowledge of 40 years right in the RNZAF. With the A-109 LUH, NH-90 and some Huey’s kept operational by a Reserve element, I think that all options are basically covered. I would rather see the $100m (at least) saved by not buying around six or so A139’s spent elsewhere in the RNZAF. Question is how often would we really need them and for the occasional situation wouldn’t the existing options suffice. That’s why the A-139 wont happen.
 
M

Marc 1

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
greenie said:
Why not just keep the huey, we have 14 airframes , keep 7-8 and reduce the rest for spares , they are simple and dirt cheep to operate and we know everything about them.Why spend more money.
When it comes to the modern RNZAF I cant understand this fasination to get bigger and bigger
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Because the huey's are next to useless on a modern hot and high battlefield. Blackhawks when loaded with guns ammo and all the other gumpf in an environment like that found in Afghanistan is either payload and or range restricted. There's a reason why the Chinook is so highly valued in theatre. A huey would basically be a liability.
 
MrConservative

MrConservative

Super Moderator
Staff member
Marc 1 said:
Because the huey's are next to useless on a modern hot and high battlefield. Blackhawks when loaded with guns ammo and all the other gumpf in an environment like that found in Afghanistan is either payload and or range restricted. There's a reason why the Chinook is so highly valued in theatre. A huey would basically be a liability.
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True. But the Huey has its place with the NZDF policy context of PSM's and post hurricane H/Aid in the Sth Pac. Its not all about battlefields.
 
recce.k1

recce.k1

Well-Known Member
Presumably when the new NH-90's enter service, they will the helo type to be sent to hot and high "warzones" like Afghanistan as they will carry all the latest countermeasures and be capable of operating in such harsh conditions etc.

(Pitty NZ doesn't have a 3-4 Chinook's for special forces work overseas - they would make a very useful contribution).

The A109's (and any upgraded Huey's) would be handy for peace-keeping in the Pacific and counter terrorism etc.

But I'd still like to see something more medium sized (bigger than an A109 for Army, counter terrorism and peace enforcement). More NH90's would be great but their costs might rule them out - although I wonder whether another 4 wouldn't be quite as expensive due to the fact we've already ordered the spares, support and training in the initial package of 8 + 1 spare?

However also still interested in a US sourced helo due to the reduced logistics support and costs, maybe the factor there will be what the Aussies do with their future Naval helicopter project as that might have implications for replacing the RNZN Seasprites at their mid-life upgrade point - be that NFH-90's or the new MH-60R/S etc. Hopefully NZDF are keeping all options open here, as there could be a tie in for Army/Air Force troop transporters etc.
 
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