Royal New Zealand Air Force

Lucasnz

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  • #661
I have to say that Im a little worried about the reducing level of ASW in the NZDF , wasnt that long ago we had 4 asw frigates , 6 asw aircraft all not that far behind in the techno stakes but now we are down to just two frigates with sonars that could barely hear a diver banging at 50mtrs and aircraft that havent been updated in decades (ASW) , I feel that subs are the single biggest threat to NZ and now we are almost blind:( Every substantional (no pun intended) nation around us either have subs or are upskilling for them .
100% spot on, but the issue is that Labour (and possibly National) see ASW as support for a US led military force. Until you can convince people that state sponsored asymmetric warfare for NZ is likley to involve sub's laying mines, carrying out cruise missile strikes in order to influence or force NZ do follow a certain line of thinking the chances of improving ASW capability is going to be limited to what defence can acheive within single service capital budgets. As for the the ANZAC's I thought they had a reasonable range, ignoring environmental variables.

On a side issue I found this on Hansards about the M-339

19736 (2007). Heather Roy to the Minister of Defence (29 Nov 2007): What are the names, dates and references of all reports, minutes and memoranda relating to the decision to reject the Aermacchis as Advanced Pilot Training Aircraft?
Hon Phil Goff (Minister of Defence) replied: As stated in the reply to question for written answer No. 16960 (2007), informal RNZAF work considered the theoretical possibility of using the MB339 Aermacchi for flying training. Their use in this role was hypothetical as the sale of the ex-Air Combat Force aircraft is expected to proceed. To allow the theoretical work to be carried out, two planning documents were generated, namely, MB339 Planning Assumptions, AIR 3185/21, dated 25 July 2007, and an Update to MB339 Planning Assumptions, AIR 3185/21 dated 27 August 2007. During a meeting of Royal New Zealand Air Force (RNZAF) officers in mid-September, it was apparent that with the current operational fleet of aircraft that the Aermacchi could not replace the B200 aircraft and deliver all of the advanced training capability required by the Royal New Zealand Air Force. Furthermore, the operating cost of a training capability package that included the Aermacchi aircraft would be three times that of an advanced pilot training capability delivered by a purpose-specific multi-engined aircraft.
 

greenie

New Member
Yes the sonar does have a capability of sorts, its just not grunty enough to work past the surface clutter and range is all enviromental.
As for the Macchis is there any mention of the amount of money the civilian air contractor gets paid from the navy and what about the FAC guys from the Army that havent had any training . Theres more to the aircraft than just finishing the wings course.:mad:

boring day sorry.
 

Lucasnz

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  • #663
Yes the sonar does have a capability of sorts, its just not grunty enough to work past the surface clutter and range is all enviromental.
I'm somewhat surprised - I hope its replacement is included in an ANZAC upgrade.

As for the Macchis is there any mention of the amount of money the civilian air contractor gets paid from the navy and what about the FAC guys from the Army that havent had any training . Theres more to the aircraft than just finishing the wings course.:mad:
None what so ever. I reckon FAC alone justifies brining the Macchis back - it might just happen after a freindly fire incident.

boring day sorry.
In your case the Doc recommends a 3 month workup followed by 3 months of exercises at sea.:D
 

greenie

New Member
Please ...please take me away !!! Ive been sailing a desk far to long !:D
Anyone herd whats happening with the other B757 ??? and the herks for that matter . They seam to have dropped off the radar.
 

moahunter

Banned Member
I think the RNZAF should closley at something like the Mantis system:

http://www.defencetalk.com/news/pub...ational_Debut_At_Aero_India_2009100017080.php

The days of manned aerial close air strike support (as opposed to transport) may be coming to an end (although there will be high altitute precision bombing for a while, with the F35 and similar). Air superiority is also going to involve drones more heavily in the near future (not that air superiority was ever a goal of the RNZAF's air combat force in the last couple of decades).

This Mantis system could be transported by the Herc's to be rolled out where needed. Something like this would offer the opportunity not only to add capability to the RNZAF (intelligence gathering, limited air strike), but the potential for local business / universities to be involved in development as well (particularly if a naval variant could be developed).
 
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recce.k1

Well-Known Member
I'm posting this "historical" news item, hopefully there may be some ex-WW2 RNZAF personnel (or relatives/descendants of) living overseas who served in the General Reconnaisance Squadrons in the Pacific Theatre and may wish to contact the researcher, contact details listed below. Alas not a great deal has been written in the last 50 years (apart from the official war histories, post war etc) about the RNZAF and allied air forces operating in the Pacific. In NZ's case the Pacific theatre was the only region where the navy, army and air force were deployed together (unlike eg air crews serving in the RAF in Europe or Army deployed to North Africa, Greece and Italy etc). For the majority of Pacific Islanders, it must have been like something from another world seeing the USAF, USN and NZ aircraft and units etc being deployed there at the time.

Wanted: War stories from veterans who flew in Pacific
4:00AM Saturday Feb 28, 2009
By James Ihaka

With his mates' shredded bodies floating lifeless around him, all flight sergeant Trevor Ganley of Kaipaki could do was hide under his punctured liferaft as Japanese fighters circled overhead.

It was July 24, 1943 and Mr Ganley's bomber crew, on a routine reconnaissance mission over the Solomon Islands, ran into trouble when they were intercepted by a patrol of Zeros.

Under heavy fire, the Lockheed Hudson Mark III was in flames and three of Mr Ganley's crew were wounded.

The crew made a forced landing in the sea off the coast of Vella Lavella where they abandoned the plane and inflated their life raft.

But the Japanese pilots were relentless and strafed the helpless men in the water.

All of Mr Ganley's crewmates - the oldest of whom was just 36 - were killed.

A wounded Mr Ganley, who had shrapnel and bullet injuries, hid from the planes under the punctured life raft before the Zeros eventually left.

He swam 3km to a nearby uninhabited island where he lived for eight days on coconuts and chocolate he found on a deserted liferaft.

He was eventually found by US Forces and returned to his base 37 days later.

Mr Ganley's story of survival is one of dozens being collected by David Homewood, a Cambridge film maker, who is planning a series of books on the untold history of New Zealand's World War II general reconnaissance squadrons who served in the Pacific.

"I've thought about that story several times and I wouldn't mind turning it into a movie," said Mr Homewood.

The 38-year-old, whose interest in the subject was piqued during a brief stint in the air force in the early 1990s, feared many "recon" stories, like Mr Ganley's, would never be told.

He said reconnaissance missions involving New Zealanders played an important part in shaping the war but little had been written about them.

One involved Lockheed Hudson crews of No4 Squadron flying from Fiji and spotting a Japanese fleet which lead to the Battle of the Coral Sea.

"The Americans ambushed the Japanese invasion fleet simply because they were warned by the reconnaissance provided by our aircraft," said Mr Homewood.

"That battle is credited as the one that saved New Zealand. Had that invasion fleet won its objectives we'd have been in the firing line and next on the list for invasion."

Mr Homewood began his research in 2005 but has found official records of the thousands of servicemen and women who served in the squadrons in NZ, Fiji, the Guadalcanal and other parts of the Pacific were scarce.

With no idea of how many surviving squadron members remain, he is appealing to those who are still alive or their family members to contact him. "I've probably spoken to about 60 people already and collected about 10 personal memoirs and at least 80 photographs from people living in places all over the country," he said.

"That's with a lot of searching, trying to match names from war records and phone books ... there are a lot of dead ends."

To contact David Homewood email [email protected] or phone (07) 823-0130.
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10559152
And for anyone interested ....

From http://www.nzetc.org/tm/scholarly/tei-WH2AirF-c10.html

Establishment of the RNZAF in the South Pacific

To stem the tide of Japanese aggression in the South and South-West Pacific, the Allies in 1942 developed a chain of island bases, stretching from Northern Australia through New Caledonia, the New Hebrides, Fiji and Tonga to Samoa. These were intended to serve as a protection for major bases in Australia and New Zealand from which an offensive could eventually be launched. At the same time they were destined to become important supply and repair bases as the Allied forces moved northward through the Solomons.

An American fighter squadron disembarked at Fiji at the end of January 1942, and a flight of Flying Fortresses arrived a few days later. American troops landed in the New Hebrides in March and in New Caledonia in April. By June all these bases were occupied by large United States forces, although they were by no means secure from major attack, and behind this outer defensive line major forces were being built up in Australia and New Zealand.

The most vital link in the defensive chain was Fiji. If the enemy established himself there he could dominate the whole of the South Pacific and would be in a position to launch an attack against New Zealand. New Zealand had done what it could to reinforce the colony by sending all its anti-aircraft artillery and a fair proportion of the available Hudsons, but the defences in the first few weeks of 1942 were much too weak to withstand a major attack.

Early in February a detachment of six Hudsons from No. 2 Squadron was sent to Fiji temporarily to strengthen the air defences in the face of what appeared to be an imminent threat of attack. They arrived on 11 February and were attached to No. 4 Squadron at Nandi.

On 13 February aircrew were briefed for an attack on a Japanese task force which was reported to be approaching. Coastwatchers further north had reported a force including three aircraft carriers apparently heading for Fiji. It was estimated that it would arrive late on 13 February or at dawn on the 14th. An Allied force, including the aircraft carriers Lexington and Saratoga, was also heading for Fiji, but it was doubtful whether it would arrive in time to intercept the Japanese. Furthermore, the Allied fleet included no battleships.

The Hudsons were briefed to bomb from 9000 feet and the Fortresses from 16,000 feet, and pilots were told that unless the Allied force arrived in time they would stand very little chance of coming out of the action alive as the sky would be thick with Japanese fighters....
 
Sorry Reece not much to add.

Those guys deserve alot more recommendation that they have received.
Some of the stories you hear about those sqd's in the early pacific war makes you wonder how any survived any encounters with the IJN.

Just wondering if anybody knows much about this?

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/1999/12/08/59433/clinton-and-sukhoi-in-rnzaf-f-16-debate.html

Not sure if I have added this correctly.
Anyway sorry for dredging up bad memories of the F-16 cancellation but it mentions Sukhoi made a pitch for SU-30's.

I know it would be a non-starter even if labour had been in interested because of the supply chain, after sale service and non-compatibility with allied equipment but still tickles me curious.

Could I be wrong and the Su30 have worked for NZ? And say that in this alternate universe where our defence forces are allowed proper wary kit would this have been too great a cost for other meaningful equipment upgrades?

Just wondering....

Cheers
Shane
 

recce.k1

Well-Known Member
A quick reply Shane, I hadn't heard of that Su-30 v F-16 deal before either until I saw someone mention it on the Wings Over NZ Aviation Forum recently (see Postwar RNZAF/RNZAF F-16 images - page 2) and it got a bit of stick for being impractical!

I'm pretty sure I read something similar on one of the Aussie threads here at DT recently too (Sukhoi trying to interest the Aussies = again more stick)!

Anyway hopefully someone more enlightened than me can shed more light on this.

But all I would say is that after the then incoming Govt scrapping the F-16 deal to the annoyance of the US and Australia, the last thing said Govt would have done was buy Sukhoi instead, not even if they were offered for free! (The then PM wasn't known as "Red Helen" by the US for nothing during the 1980's anti-nuke debarcle)!

Back in WW2 the RNZAF P-40's shot down 99 Japanese aircraft and undertook a lot of bombing/mopping up operations after the advancing US forces, so they did pretty well in my opinion, but for sure those early days of 1942 would have been pretty scary and testing times.
 

MrConservative

Super Moderator
Staff member
For those in the Auckland area the RNZAF will host an Air Show at Whenuapei AFB on Saturday 21st March from 9.am. Only $5 entry and the kids free. Of note will be a C-17 Globemaster from the USAF. This will be the first time in many years that a USAF aircraft has featured at an official RNZAF event. Clearly a sign that we have a new crowd in charge in Wellington as the last lot would not have sanctioned that. RAAF will also be there with a couple of Hornets. Will be nice to hear again the sound of freedom over the skies of our fair city.:)
 
Dreams of what could have been

Hmmm, C-17 would be great to see. Auckland getting quite a treat.
Any complaints from the tree huggers?.....release the hounds.
Be even greater if we could afford to (...C17...sigh...) buy and run five of them but oh well....
Looking at trends with aerial logistical movement in emergencies be it war or civil disaster, the requirement for movement ability always grows above estimates, sometimes exponentially. Having said that while we might be able to justify something getting up to the C17 after say a catastrophic earthquake or crippling volcanic eruption with the benefit of hindsight that tragic losses gives to powers of reasoning, we can't now and thats the end of it really.
The thing I hope the Beehive remembers come decision about airframes (be it A400M or new C130's - Euro collaboration has a spotty record at best. WW1 and 2 spring to mind - as 5 C-130's has long been unfunny) is that the"credible minimum" in a pinch turns in "severly inadequate".
But hey it'll probably be fine.

Just a curious question for everyone about the much lamented F-16's
Does anyone know what they are doing now? If they are still sitting around how many of them and has anybody got plans for them? I feel my euro millions numbers might roll in.....yeah right.
and what upgrades where needed to bring them up to a competitive standard had we actually recieved them?
This in no way endorses the aircraft type, I simply am not wise enough to debate that or having a ACF even(however I err on having one but thats just me - rather waste money than blood....unless its coming from a few of our esteem leaders....Kidding they have unbelievably hard lives in parliament and I mean that- I have seen a portion of it and I couldn't do it and I don't think alot of people could.)
But since the perfect aircraft for NZ's isolation currently does not exist at a price we can afford, we could do a hell of alot worse than F-16's (with pre-positioned stocks and a beefed up transport fleet with organic a2a refueling)....Any western equivalent of a Tu22M kicking about??? just kidding

Cheers

Shane
 

Sea Toby

New Member
The 28 F-16s, Block 15, New Zealand would have leased over 10 years from the USA for $110 million New Zealand dollars, with the right to lease or purchase at a later date, was cheaper than buying 2 NH-90 helicopters, the 8 NH-90s ran over $800 million New Zealand dollars. The lease of the century! Keep in mind similar aircraft was running at that time for over $40 million in US dollars.

As an American, I want to thank the New Zealand Air Force officer who found them. America got them for nothing.

Of course, operating the aircraft would have cost as much as operating the Skyhawks and Aeromacchis, some $700 million over ten years. Labour killed the air combat force to save the operating expenses, and also killed the Falcons lease to save the lease's expenses. Furthermore, New Zealand still haven't sold the air combat force after 9 years, not many buyers wanted them.

At the same time Labour killed the air combat force it increased the arts budget the same amount. Simply put, filming films in New Zealand was seen as more of a revenue generator than operating combat aircraft. Air defence never entered Labour's mind.

While upgrading the aircraft would have cost much, much more than the lease, the aircraft as is were better than the old upgraded Skyhawks and would have been better than flying nothing.

As for affordabiliity, New Zealand ran significant surpluses during the decade to follow, sometimes as high as several billion dollars.

The Falcons are no longer around, the USAF claimed them unaltered, and are still flying them. Eventually Pakistan got better aircraft for the same price as the Block 15s.
 
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dave_kiwi

New Member
Verified Defense Pro
P3K - What is on the in-board port pylon ?

Been looking at this picture of a P3K down on the ice (from 2006 I think) - and there appears to be something fitted to the in-board port pylon, below the inner engine, mostly masked by the landing gear.

As far as I am aware, the only thing that used to be hung off a pylon when I worked on P3Ks was the searchlight, on the outer most starboard pylon - but that was twenty something years ago.

Any one have any ideas ... maybe its not even on the pylon ...

The whole picture:

http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:p-3K_5Sqn_NZ4203_1.jpg

An even better shot from google showing the "object"

http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:p-3K_5Sqn_NZ4203_2.jpg
 
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Gibbo

Well-Known Member
Been looking at this picture of a P3K down on the ice (from 2006 I think) - and there appears to be something fitted to the in-board port pylon, below the inner engine, mostly masked by the landing gear.

As far as I am aware, the only thing that used to be hung off a pylon when I worked on P3Ks was the searchlight, on the outer most starboard pylon - but that was twenty something years ago.

Any one have any ideas ... maybe its not even on the pylon ...

The whole picture:

http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:p-3K_5Sqn_NZ4203_1.jpg

An even better shot from google showing the "object"

http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:p-3K_5Sqn_NZ4203_2.jpg
Hmmm, if you high-res the 2nd shot you can get a good view. It's definitely on the pylon and is pod shaped. What's really hard to determine if the black triangular object is part of that or part of the background object (which it may be as the top edge of both match-up). But I actually think the black object IS part of whatever is on the pylon. :unknown

Unless we hear from someone this week perhaps someone could do a little 'asking' this Saturday at the Whenuapai airshow - and report back here of course! ;)
 

Gibbo

Well-Known Member
Hmmm, if you high-res the 2nd shot you can get a good view. It's definitely on the pylon and is pod shaped. What's really hard to determine if the black triangular object is part of that or part of the background object (which it may be as the top edge of both match-up). But I actually think the black object IS part of whatever is on the pylon. :unknown

Unless we hear from someone this week perhaps someone could do a little 'asking' this Saturday at the Whenuapai airshow - and report back here of course! ;)
Duh - of course the black triangular object is attached - it shows in the first shot! :nutkick
 
A

Aussie Digger

Guest
Duh - of course the black triangular object is attached - it shows in the first shot! :nutkick
My guess would be ESM or a SIGINT sensor.

And I'm not telling why I think that... ;)
 

Gibbo

Well-Known Member
My guess would be ESM or a SIGINT sensor.

And I'm not telling why I think that... ;)
After not expecting to be at the Whenuapai airshow I did in act make it. At least 3 of the P-3Ks had these 'objects' fitted - including one that was up on stilts with wheels up in 5 sqn hangar. I asked one of the guys behind the rope and he reckons it's a 'supplemental radar' - I quizzed him on the need for additional radar as I wasn't convinced he was giving me the full story - but he stuck to that! So I at least am none the wiser! AD - how 'educated' is your 'guess'? Can't be 100% but it seemed to be the P-3Ks without the more recent MX20 'turret' fitted that had these - don't know if that's relevant!?!

Anyway good airshow, fantastic weather & nice to see C17 for first time & Hornets again! Nice friendly C17 crew - particularly the female co-pilot ;)

A couple maintenance hitches (B757 in morning & C-130 in afternoon) but the techies worled wonders & rectified these for later displays. Only thing missing was 6Sqn sasprites - they've apparently got a big few weeks ahead & they've already got a/c out on RNZN deployments. They had a static SH-2G on show though. Other 'statics' were: FANC Casa 235; Aussie Customs Q300; Air-Affairs Lear Jet with towed targets onboard; Aussie C130J.

All hail the Hornet!:nutkick
 

MrConservative

Super Moderator
Staff member
Yes it was a great day out at Whenuapei. I got held up in traffic so missed the first couple of hours. Arrived in time to see the P51, Corsair, and jet warbirds do their thing. The C-17 was quite the crowd pleaser and great to see the warm reception the crowd gave the USAF crew. I kept on hearing kiwi's say "welcome back" to the USAF, "good to have you here" and comments like that. Also enjoyed seeing Eastie carve up the sky in the RAAF Hornet. He really showed the capability of that aircraft and what the RNZAF has been missing since he went across the ditch after the ACW was stuffed. Must have been louder than I thought as friends heard the F-18 miles away in Northcote Point. I was impressed with the guys from the Aussie Customs who bought over the Q300 (after an invitation from the new government and have given them a full briefing on their current Coastwatch programme which is interesting). Every question answered straight up and with more. The French guys who bought over the CASA-235 were also informative and again good to see them here. I would have loved to have seen the 235 flying. First time to see one up close before and was struck by it really being the modern era's HS Andover. Already looking forward to the next one in 2011.
 
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