Indonesia & South Korea Cooperating in Jet Fighter Projects?

[Ananda]

http://es.quote.com/news/story.action?id=RTT903061047000873

The signing happen to be last week with our President & South Korea President Lee Myung Bak in Jakarta. The agreement was part of broad investment and Economic cooperations agreement.
I only found the related article in english on the above link (from RTT News). Other links was in Bahasa Indonesia.

What I would like to ask (if anybody knows), what kind of jet fighter in questions ? Even with current democratic environment in here, I'm affraid our military still have little bit tight lips attitude on their plan procurement
I'm very certain it's not a new design (we would not have money to contrubite on entirely new design projects). So it's must be development on existing South Korean design

From several local news, it's well known that our Air Force wants to replace our LIFT Fighter (Hawk Mk 53), and the COIN fighter (OV 10). Both projects include korean contenders T-50 Golden Eagle and Armed derivatives of KT-1 Woong Bee. But both of them are not Jet Fighters.

Are South Korea already developing Fighter derivatives from T-50 ? From what I heard it's still a plan and not in production yet. The Fighters derivatives I believe for replacing F-5. Since we also in planning on F-5 Replacement, it's conceivable that we want to join with south korea for F-5 replacement project.

Kind of help from forum members who have more info on South Koreaan Fighter projects or maybe (from South Korean members perhaps ?), any info on this suppose join fighter projects with Indonesia.

Much Oblige for the info.

 

[windscorpion]

One thing i would say is that to certain sections of the media anything with jets and is smaller than an airliner is a "jet fighter" so they could easily be talking about the T-50 replacing Hawks/OV-10s.

 

[Ananda]

Thanks for the repply,

Agree for media notorius exageration, however according to the defence ministry in here, Air Force already submit Super Tucano for OV 10 replacement. Armed KT-1 derivatives was in second posistion, however Super Tucano become first contender since it's already in production and have track record as COIN fighter.
Replacement for Hawk Mk 53 seems going for Checks L-139, although it's not devinetive yet.

Thus, personally i'm supecting this projects is for F-5 or even F-16 A replacement. According local sources in here, both are schedulled to be replaced from 2012 on. Some even suggest that by that time frame, the air force also wants to replace Hawk 200/100, since it's not a secret they're not happy with Hawks little fighter variance, but have to accept them due to US refusal to sell more F-16 on early 90's on East Timor problem.

So that's possible 4 squadron replacement. Since lifting the embargo in 2005, the US already hinted for F-16C Block 52 as possible F-5 & F-16A replacement, however the nerve on decision makers in here are still raw on buying US.

That's why I'm asking what is the progress on developing T-50 as F-5 replacement, and also could T-50 being developed using different engine, since current engine is GE 414 ? (again in here we're still nerveous on using US equipment, even with lifting US embargo). We're not going to be anti US procurement, but seems we're going to minimize US procurement as much as posssible. Below, is the extract of the news, if have difficulty ingetting the link.


Indonesia and South Korea to boost defense ties
Friday March 06, 2009 10:47:00 EST
(RTTNews) - Indonesia and South Korea have signed agreements to enhance cooperation in defense, alternate energy, labor and tourism.


The visiting South Korean President Lee Myung-Bak and his Indonesian counterpart, Susilo Bambang Yudhoyono, signed the documents in Jakarta Friday after discussing the situation in the Korean peninsula, climate-change and the ongoing global economic crisis.


Addressing a joint press conference with Yudhoyono, Lee said they had agreed to strengthen bilateral relations in defense and industry of defense.


The two East Asian countries planned to cooperate in the development of jet-fighter projects.


Yudhoyono said they also agreed to boost investment and trade in oil and gas.


Trade between Indonesia and South Korea, which was $20 billion last year, will be further increased.


Lee will conclude his three-day visit Sunday.


For comments and feedback: contact [email protected]

Copyright(c) 2009 RTTNews.com, Inc. All Rights Reserved

 

[Sandhi Yudha]

Maybe they talk about A-50, a LIFT variant of the T-50. It can be armed with AIM-9 and AGM-65, so its a relatively cheap replacement for the F-5s and F-16s, altough with a less capable engine and radar.

The L-159 does also have a US-made engine.

In my opinion its more logic to replace the OV-10F by the KO-1, the Hawk Mk53 by T-50 and the F-5 and F-16 by the A-50.
Politically more logic, but also more practical/efficient for the Airforce, cause we already have the KT-1B.

 

[OPSSG]

Maybe they talk about A-50, a LIFT variant of the T-50. It can be armed with AIM-9 and AGM-65, so its a relatively cheap replacement for the F-5s and F-16s, although with a less capable engine and radar.

Agreed. The T-50 (or the A-50, the strike variant) has a F-404-GE engine (not the F-414-GE engine found on the Super Hornet) like India's HAL Tejas, which also has a F-404-GE engine. The F-404-GE is a great engine and an early version of this engine, the F404-GE-100D engine was shoved into the A-4SU Super Skyhawk by the RSAF. The A-50 is not intended to compete with new F-16s (as it will not have AESA radar) and is intended to cost less than a late model F-16.

I believe the S. Koreans are also making a big pitch to sell the very high end T-50, as an advanced jet trainer to Singapore.

BTW, over the longer term, realistically, I expect Indonesia-Singapore relations to slowly deteriorate. I do not expect the same great prior relationship between our previous generation of leaders to endure despite all the reassuring noises recently. This will result in Singapore adopting a more overtly pro-US stance over time. Hence, I hope that the Indonesian air force will buy more Russian equipment like the Su-30MKs and not US made F-16s (or the A-50). If Indonesia buys more Su-30MKs, it is likely they will send their pilots to India for training and this will lead to a better relationship with India-Indonesia relationship (strengthening the non-aligned movement).

The two countries bordering Indonesia with the most powerful air forces are Australia and Singapore. Given that the three countries do not have outstanding territorial disputes, we are not an existential threat to Indonesia. As such, anything the Indonesian air force buys is fine, from a Singaporean's perspective of Indonesian defence concerns. As far as I can see, Indonesia's current dispute seems to be with Malaysia.

 

[ROCK45]

L-159

Sandhi Yudha
The L-159 does also have a US-made engine.

Boeing had bought into Aero, partly due to Aero's work on assorted bits of civil Boeing's. Correct me if I'm wrong but because of the American content of the L-159 it still needs US approval to export.

Isn't LM an investor in the A-50 program? Not sure if approval is needed for South Korea to export them I would assume it does because of the equipment and weapons, others may know for sure.

Still trying to find something on why the A-50 lost in the UAE bid wonder if it was an approval issues? UAE already has Bloc-60 Vipers its just that I thought the A-50 was further along as a platform and closer to full production. It may have just been the good ties between Italy and the UAE that seal the deal. Italy and the UAE share naval projects and have billions of dollars in trade between the two.

 

[OPSSG]

Isn't LM an investor in the A-50 program? Not sure if approval is needed for South Korea to export them I would assume it does because of the equipment and weapons, others may know for sure.

Yes, LM's got a finger in it (as it is based on F-16 technology) and hence the A-50 is not intended or allowed to compete with new F-16s sales.

Still trying to find something on why the A-50 lost in the UAE bid wonder if it was an approval issues? UAE already has Bloc-60 Vipers its just that I thought the A-50 was further along as a platform and closer to full production. It may have just been the good ties between Italy and the UAE that seal the deal. Italy and the UAE share naval projects and have billions of dollars in trade between the two.

The T-50 is ready for sale and the Koreans have established a responsive production line. IMHO, I believe that the T-50 is a gold plated advanced jet trainer (as it costs much more $ and has many very advanced features) and Italy must have done a good job with offsets.

 

[swerve]

Agreed. The T-50 (or the A-50, the strike variant) has a F-404-GE engine (not the F-414-GE engine found on the Super Hornet) like India's HAL Tejas, which also has a F-404-GE engine. The F-404-GE is a great engine and an early version of this engine, the F404-GE-100D engine was shoved into the A-4SU Super Skyhawk by the RSAF. The A-50 is not intended to compete with new F-16s (as it will not have AESA radar) and is intended to cost less than a late model F-16. .

There is also an F-50 light fighter version mooted.

S. Korea was refused permission (needed according to the terms of the co-development contract) to fit the Selex Vixen 500E AESA radar (there's a clause about limiting its capabilities to less than an F-16, & limits on non-US involvement) but has been permitted to fit the Israeli EL/M-2032 mechanically scanned radar, although it's been reported integration will have to be done by a US firm. It could be an adequate F-5 replacement, though inferior to what it would be without the US restrictions.

 

[swerve]

The T-50 is ready for sale and the Koreans have established a responsive production line. IMHO, I believe that the T-50 is a gold plated advanced jet trainer (as it costs much more $ and has many very advanced features) and Italy must have done a good job with offsets.

It has been suggested it's too gold plated, providing more features than are needed, or would be used, in a trainer.

 

[anan]

Ananda, cool name "Ananda" means happiness.

Is Indonesia buying AT 29 Super Tucanos? Why would it buy both AT 29s and KO-1s? That doesn't make sense.

The only possibility that makes sense is if an A-50 or F/A-50 plane is being customized for Indonesia. Maybe licensed for partial production or assembly inside Indonesia.

I have asked this question before, but let me ask it again.

What is the difference in life cycle costs between an F 16E Block 60 and and F/A-50?

costs = Acquisition costs + operations costs
Operations costs = cost per mile flown fully loaded measured in fuel and marginal maintenance

Why would a country buy an F/A 50 versus an F 16 (assuming the US congress allows the country in question to get the F 16 radar)?

OPSSG would say that the type of engine also matters in answering this question. (Yes this is true, however the F/A 50 is lighter when empty.) But I would appreciate any attempt to answer the question taking into account that a plane could choose to field multiple engines.

 

[ROCK45]

Opperational cost

anan
What is the difference in life cycle costs between an F 16E Block 60 and and F/A-50?

Not an easy answer only the UAE operates the Block-60 and South Korea only just started operating the T-50, don't think the light combat model is operational. Not sure how open the UAE is about sharing information on their fighters

Why would a country buy an F/A 50 versus an F 16 (assuming the US congress allows the country in question to get the F 16 radar)

Upfront cost's the full size Viper cost more, might not have a threat on ones border so fighters aren't needed, looking to upgrade from older types of fighters but not drive into the $70/110 million per aircraft market, government ties with South Korea, good offset offers, etc

Hope that helps a little

 

[swerve]

...
I have asked this question before, but let me ask it again.

What is the difference in life cycle costs between an F 16E Block 60 and and F/A-50?....

I doubt if anyone could tell you with any degree of precision, except perhaps Lockheed Martin & KAI working together. I would expect the F/A-50 to be significantly cheaper both to buy & operate, though. Published estimates suggest that a T-50 is well under half of the purchase price of an F-16E, and an F/A-50 should be closer in price to a T-50 than an F-16E.

Why would a country buy an F/A 50 versus an F 16 (assuming the US congress allows the country in question to get the F 16 radar)?

Money, probably. If you want a relatively cheap jet, a modern F-5, the F/A-50 is probably the closest you can get. I can imagine an air force able to afford a few fairly high capability fighters wanting to make up the numbers with a cheaper, in every respect, aircraft, to do all the tasks not needing the top fighter. E.g. Su-30 & F/A-50 . . . .

 

[Ananda]

Is Indonesia buying AT 29 Super Tucanos? Why would it buy both AT 29s and KO-1s? That doesn't make sense.

Hi anan
Well, the news in here says that Air Force already submit Super Tucano as prevered replacement for OV 10. However the KO-1 still came as second prevered candidates. The Defence ministry still have the final says though. On supply base logic, we should go with KO-1 since we already used KT-1 as traines replacing T-34 Mentor, however super tucano score higher with 'already in production' aspects as the main issue. So we'll not use both, it is either or

The only possibility that makes sense is if an A-50 or F/A-50 plane is being customized for Indonesia. Maybe licensed for partial production or assembly inside Indonesia.

That's what i'm suspect, and would like to know too. This is a new agreement and the detail still unknown, hopefully someone in the forum can have more info on this.

Why would a country buy an F/A 50 versus an F 16 (assuming the US congress allows the country in question to get the F 16 radar)?

Money..like I said above, there's potential replacement for 2-4 squandrons, if the price of F-50 is half than F-16 Blok 52, we might still can afford to replace the overall 4 sq with a new type of fighters. I believe we already set on geeting Su 27 and su 30 for high performance aircrafts. However with the current price (which is similar in range with F-16 Block 52), we seems only can afford 2 sq at most. Since the airforce currently have 7 sq (1 Coin & 6 Fighters), to replace them on one on one basis, the other 4 sq have to be relatively cheaper but still modern base standard fighters.

But I would appreciate any attempt to answer the question taking into account that a plane could choose to field multiple engines.

That's what I would to know too. In here rellying too much on US will not sell good politically. Although our relations with US have improve much with our current president and also due to Obama factor, but many still fell resenment and betrayal by US on embargo and East Timor issue.
Thus, I also would like to know if the current F-50 in South Korean plan, also open to use non US engines. Since our defence industry now quite close with Franchie and Ruskie, perhaps those two can be alternative engine sources..

How hard it's to alter an aircraft that already designed for US engine on using French or Ruskie engine..personally i'm hoping on french engine though..

BTW, Ananda in here means 'child of'..sort of 'bin' in arabic. still many indon's use sanscript names due to ancient Hindu's influences on our cultures.

 

[OPSSG]

@ Ananda,

Good thread. I hope you are entertained by my silly posts. :rotfl

It has been suggested it's too gold plated, providing more features than are needed, or would be used, in a trainer.

Thanks for the correction. Don't know what happened. I seem to have lost my ability to express myself all of a sudden.

Money..like I said above, there's potential replacement for 2-4 squadrons, if the price of F-50 is half than F-16 Block 52, we might still can afford to replace the overall 4 sq with a new type of fighters.

I think the Indonesian air force has a chronic budget problem that is so severe, it affects your country's ability to keep your planes flying.

In 2005, Indonesia-US reestablished full military-to-military relations. Further, in FY 2009, Indonesia is identified by the US as a country qualified to receive Excess Defense Articles (EDA) under Section 516 of the Foreign Assistance Act. This could potentially fill Indonesian equipment shortfalls in keeping your current F-16 squadron flying and possibly receiving EDA. In that respect, your air force is looking to be given EDA, which may or may not include retired USAF F-16s to top up your F-16 squadron (most of which can no longer fly, due to spare part shortages).

In FY 2009, the US plans to provide US$15.7 million in Foreign Military Financing and US$1.5 million in International Military Education and Training to Indonesia.

I believe we already set on getting Su-27 and Su-30 for high performance aircraft. However with the current price, we seems only can afford 2 sq at most. Since the air force currently have 7 sq (1 Coin & 6 Fighters), to replace them on one on one basis, the other 4 sq have to be relatively cheaper but still modern base standard fighters.

Under a $300 million contract, signed in 2007, Russia has supplied 3x Su-30MK2 planes and will deliver 3x Su-27SKM fighters to Jakarta in addition to the 2x Su-27SK and 2x Su-30MK planes that are already in service with the Indonesian air force.

So it is natural that your air force will want to buy enough Su-30s to complete the 11th Squadron based in the Sultan Hasanuddin airbase on Sulawesi.

That's what I would to know too. In here relying too much on US will not sell good politically. Although our relations with US have improve much with our current president and also due to Obama factor, but many still fell resentment and betrayal by US on embargo and East Timor issue.

The diplomatic road ahead between US and Indonesia is not smooth but I think the relationship could have been much worse, if not for the quiet efforts on both sides.

Thus, I also would like to know if the current F-50 in South Korean plan, also open to use non US engines. Since our defence industry now quite close with Franchie and Ruskie, perhaps those two can be alternative engine sources..

If Indonesia want non-US engines, maybe you really need to consider non-US planes. If you read the RMAF thread, the Malaysians have had contractual disputes over integration issues (see posts #1109 & #1110) in their Su-30 MKM and have paid more for each aircraft (not included in the US$900 million contract was signed with Irkut Corp) to integrate sensors from Saab Avitronics (South Africa). IIRC, this S$20 million Saab Avitronics contract does not include the French avionics and targeting pod (see post #1047).

 

[swerve]

Thus, I also would like to know if the current F-50 in South Korean plan, also open to use non US engines. Since our defence industry now quite close with Franchie and Ruskie, perhaps those two can be alternative engine sources..

How hard it's to alter an aircraft that already designed for US engine on using French or Ruskie engine..personally i'm hoping on french engine though..

I don't think there would be major technical issues, as long as an engine is available that fits in the engine bay without major modifications. But there would probably be great legal & political obstacles. The T-50 and its derivatives were jointly developed with Lockheed Martin, & the contract gives both LM & the US government a great deal of control over it. This is why it does not have the Selex Vixen 500E radar, despite KAI wanting to fit it. LM & the US government could, & did, refuse permission. I am sure they would refuse permission for a Russian engine, & probably for a French or other European engine.

 

[Sandhi Yudha]

Ananda, cool name "Ananda" means happiness.

Is Indonesia buying AT 29 Super Tucanos? Why would it buy both AT 29s and KO-1s? That doesn't make sense.

The only possibility that makes sense is if an A-50 or F/A-50 plane is being customized for Indonesia. Maybe licensed for partial production or assembly inside Indonesia.

I have asked this question before, but let me ask it again.

What is the difference in life cycle costs between an F 16E Block 60 and and F/A-50?

costs = Acquisition costs + operations costs
Operations costs = cost per mile flown fully loaded measured in fuel and marginal maintenance

Why would a country buy an F/A 50 versus an F 16 (assuming the US congress allows the country in question to get the F 16 radar)?

.

Ananda Mikola....

Some years ago i read in a magazine ( Airforces Monthly/ Air International?) that altough the T-50 has more features, its cheaper than a Hawk Mk100 or 200. Oke, the T-50 has a more powerful engine (78.7kN with afterburner), but does anyone know which radar is better: the AN/APG-66H from the Hawk Mk209 or the AN/APG-67(V)4 from the A-50/T-50B?

 

[Ananda]

I think the Indonesian air force has a chronic budget problem that is so severe, it affects your country's ability to keep your planes flying.

In 2005, Indonesia-US reestablished full military-to-military relations. Further, in FY 2009, Indonesia is identified by the US as a country qualified to receive Excess Defense Articles (EDA) under Section 516 of the Foreign Assistance Act. This could potentially fill Indonesian equipment shortfalls in keeping your current F-16 squadron flying and possibly receiving EDA. In that respect, your air force is looking to be given EDA, which may or may not include retired USAF F-16s to top up your F-16 squadron (most of which can no longer fly, due to spare part shortages).

Well, in the last joint exercises, the air force able to provide 6 F-16. I agree the budget always a proble, thus that why I suggest it's probably TNI-AU wants to reduce the number of 'aircraft types' its operates. It's well known until the current administration, the use of numerous types of equipement in our armed forces much do to the 'hanky-panky business' on procurements. Like I said before the US already send signals that they willing to considered providing extra F-16 and getting new spare parts for existing ones. However back to the topics, this agreement with South Korea perhaps signalling that we would not want to get additional F-16, but concentrating more on Sukhoi and secondary type of fighters. Economically it's good if it can be done, to reduce the mumber of types.
Personally I'm hopping for additional F-16 Block 50-52 though It's cool to have 4 sq F-16 Block 52 and 2 or 3 Sq of Su 27/30 MKM..what a wish..

Some years ago i read in a magazine ( Airforces Monthly/ Air International?) that altough the T-50 has more features, its cheaper than a Hawk Mk100 or 200. Oke, the T-50 has a more powerful engine (78.7kN with afterburner), but does anyone know which radar is better: the AN/APG-66H from the Hawk Mk209 or the AN/APG-67(V)4 from the A-50/T-50B?

I honestly do not know, perhaps some members it the forum can provide info, however base on the the numbers supposedly AN/APG-67 is newer generation that AN/APG 66, it should be more cappable though ?
I believe that's also one of the considerations for T/F-50..The south Korean willing to provide better price and financing scheme, also I belive know they're very eager on getting new partners on opening new market for T/A/F-50.

I don't think there would be major technical issues, as long as an engine is available that fits in the engine bay without major modifications. But there would probably be great legal & political obstacles. The T-50 and its derivatives were jointly developed with Lockheed Martin, & the contract gives both LM & the US government a great deal of control over it. This is why it does not have the Selex Vixen 500E radar, despite KAI wanting to fit it. LM & the US government could, & did, refuse permission. I am sure they would refuse permission for a Russian engine, & probably for a French or other European engine.

The engine changes it's more my oppinion, considering some political oposition in here on rellying too much to US equipments. If the deal goes through, and we ending up going to use T/F-50, I believe with this fighters actually a colaboration between KAI and LM, than substantial using on US equipment is unavoidable. However if it's open on using different source of engine, than it's might be more saleable politically in here.
The though came in mind considering Pakistan also pondering using different engine for their FC-1, from what original version developed together with China.

 

[anan]

Why would Indonesia buy the F16 Block 50-52 versus the F16E Block 60?

For that matter, why would Iraq or other countries choose F16 Block 50-52 versus the F16E Block 60?

Since the F/A 50 is an F 16 derivative aircraft, the Indonesians should either buy F/A 50 or F16E Block 60 in my view. Economies of scale in maintenance and operations.

I don't know the difference in life cycle costs between an F16E Block 60 and an F/A 50. Without a model to calculate this, it is hard to define quantitative metrics to evaluate which aircraft the Indonesians should procure.

What is the marginal operations cost per mile to fly an F16E Block 60 versus an F/A 50?

Operations Costs = (gallons of fuel/mile * price of fuel) + (marginal maintenance and probable upgrade/refurbish costs per mile flown)

Is the fuel cost of an F/A 50 divided by the fuel cost of an F16 approximately equal to the weight of an F/A 50 divided by the weight of and F16? In other words are both engines roughly equivalently efficient when measured in terms of the cost to fly one kg per mile?

What are the difference in maintenance costs per mile flown between the two planes (understanding that different engines and configurations are possible for both planes, making answering these questions more complicated)?

My rough estimate is that an F16E Block 60 costs $500 million over 25 years or $20 million per year. By comparison, and F/A 50 might cost $400 million over 25 years or approximately $16 million per year. Are these estimates in the right ball park?

Life cycle costs for the two turboprop light attack fighters Indonesia is considering might be:

AT 29 Super Tucano = $125 million over 25 years or $5 million per year. Acquisition costs might be $500,000 per year over 25 years. $4.5 million would be fuel + maintenance costs per year.

The KO-1 might be $150 million over 25 years. Since the KO-1 is new, I would conservatively estimate $5.5 million would in fuel + maintenance costs per year. We may not have good metrics on maintenance for an KO-1, so I would rather err on the higher side for this estimate.

Ananda, how many turboprop light attack fighters is Indonesia considering acquiring?

I think Indonesia could make do with 2 squadrons of F 16 E Block 60 aircraft for air superiority, strategic air strike, and air defense suppression defense capabilities. Couldn't they use their older F 16s (refurbished) and turboprop light attack fighters for everything else? It isn't like Indonesia has any potential regional military adversaries.

 

[OPSSG]

anan, you are a very strong advocate of the block 60 F-16, which is good but it is not the be-all and end-all solution. Kindly note that there are some forum members (including Mods) here who would also rate the F-16Is very highly. I don't really care to explain why or defend the F-16I. Please do a search of the posts in DT.

Keep in mind that Indonesia, in the past was not adverse to buying Israeli products and services. I'm not sure about the current climate but I'm sure Ananda can provide an indicative current response.

It isn't like Indonesia has any potential regional military adversaries.

Your above statement is not true.

Please also note that Singapore has not been traditionally seen as a threat to Indonesia and often supports Indonesia's position in ASEAN. Kindly ask Ananda for more information about current boundary disputes and other considerations, after East Timor.

I think Indonesia could make do with 2 squadrons of F 16 E Block 60 aircraft for air superiority, strategic air strike, and air defense suppression defense capabilities.

Question 1: Does Indonesia have the intention to develop a capability to organize complex strike packages in the next 5 years?

Ananda has explained that Indonesia managed to get 6x F-16 flying at the last exercise. Is this even 1/2 a F-16 squadron? Please ask yourself:

(i) What are their current problems besides budget operating alone?

(ii) What model is their targeting pod on their F-16 if they are to perform a strike role?​

Why would Indonesia buy the F16 Block 50-52 versus the F16E Block 60?

For that matter, why would Iraq or other countries choose F16 Block 50-52 versus the F16E Block 60?

Please explain why Turkey ordered 30 more block 50+ F-16 in 2007? Especially if the block 60 is the be-all and end-all solution to establishing air superiority.

Question 2: Did Turkey buy a lemon in 2007?

Since the F/A 50 is an F 16 derivative aircraft, the Indonesians should either buy F/A 50 or F16E Block 60 in my view. Economies of scale in maintenance and operations.

I don't know the difference in life cycle costs between an F16E Block 60 and an F/A 50. Without a model to calculate this, it is hard to define quantitative metrics to evaluate which aircraft the Indonesians should procure.

What is the marginal operations cost per mile to fly an F16E Block 60 versus an F/A 50?

Operations Costs = (gallons of fuel/mile * price of fuel) + (marginal maintenance and probable upgrade/refurbish costs per mile flown)

Is the fuel cost of an F/A 50 divided by the fuel cost of an F16 approximately equal to the weight of an F/A 50 divided by the weight of and F16? In other words are both engines roughly equivalently efficient when measured in terms of the cost to fly one kg per mile?

What are the difference in maintenance costs per mile flown between the two planes (understanding that different engines and configurations are possible for both planes, making answering these questions more complicated)?

My rough estimate is that an F16E Block 60 costs $500 million over 25 years or $20 million per year. By comparison, and F/A 50 might cost $400 million over 25 years or approximately $16 million per year. Are these estimates in the right ball park?

As I have said before, you can use a jungle knife to open a tin can but a can opener will do the job better.

Question 3: Who does not have better air-to-air capabilities compared to Indonesia (amongst her immediate neighbours)? Please name them.

Life cycle costs for the two turboprop light attack fighters Indonesia is considering might be:

AT 29 Super Tucano = $125 million over 25 years or $5 million per year. Acquisition costs might be $500,000 per year over 25 years. $4.5 million would be fuel + maintenance costs per year.

The KO-1 might be $150 million over 25 years. Since the KO-1 is new, I would conservatively estimate $5.5 million would in fuel + maintenance costs per year. We may not have good metrics on maintenance for an KO-1, so I would rather err on the higher side for this estimate.

Ananda, how many turboprop light attack fighters is Indonesia considering acquiring?

Question 4: If ground attack is not the only role of an air force, what are the other roles (and which role is the most important to Indonesia)?

Please read up and search for the answers. The answers may surprise you.

 

[Sandhi Yudha]

We never go to buy the F-16C/D Block 50/52 or F-16E/F Block 60:
1: Too expensive
2: The US will never want to sell such high-tech capable aircraft to us.
(Until now, UAE is the only country who have bought the Block 60)

Some of our neighbours dont respect our borders and airspace.
At this moment we have a boundary dispute with Malaysia. On the eastern side of Kalimantan/Borneo there is an area, Ambalat Blok, rich of mineral resources, and Malaysia claims it belongs to them.

Our F-16s are just Block 15OCU, besides the AIM-9P4, its also capable of using the AGM-65D/G. So, we dont have any targeting pods.