Republic of Singapore Air Force Discussions

Red

New Member
Thanks for your comments and the update. Please PM me on how you get the number of F-16s. It does not tally with the numbers I've see elsewhere (I'm not saying that this link is correct).

62 F16 blk 52 plus C/Ds jets (and excludes the 8 F16 A/Bs given to Thailand as a gift.) purchased plus 12 more leased F16s Blk 52s. So, that makes 74 F16 Blk 52s/52 plus currently.

The 12 are the leased jets based in the US for training. However, I have no information if the RSAF has exercised the option to buy. They are still under RSAF`s control at any rate and it is likely the option has already been exercised.

http://www.faqs.org/docs/air/avf163.html
 
A

Aussie Digger

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You mean in capability? Dont they use the same generation systems?
RAFAEL-Northrop Grumman vs. Lockheed Martin

Yep. The Sniper-XR has a greater capability than current editions of the Litening pod, with a better FLIR sensor, longer range and reportedly better auto-tracking capability.

Of course it comes at a premium price too. RAAF chose the latest Litening AT pod over the Sniper XR AND ATFLIR pods, for it's Hornet Upgrade Project Phase 2.4 on the basis of price (being able to acquire 37x Litening pods, for the price of 24x Sniper XR pods)...
 

Red

New Member
Pictures of RSAF`s F15SG. I would like to draw your attention to the little bumps all over the plane. They are almost the same kind of bumps you see on Israel`s F16I and Singapore`s F16s. In particular, note the tail section. There are minute but significant differences from the F15E/K. Apparently, no photos are allowed for the rear section of the F15SG.

http://www.mindef.gov.sg/etc/medialib/imindef_media_library/photos/news_release/2008/nov.Par.0001.Image.gif?direct=1

http://www.mindef.gov.sg/etc/medialib/imindef_media_library/photos/news_release/2008/nov.Par.0003.Image.gif?direct=1

http://www.mindef.gov.sg/etc/medialib/imindef_media_library/photos/news_release/2008/nov.Par.0004.Image.gif?direct=1

http://www.boeingmedia.com/imageView.cfm?id=15323&ResID=5

Video of the roll-out( you will need to copy the link and paste it onto your browser to watch the video)

mms://media.mindef.gov.sg/04nov08_f15_rollout_hi.asf
 

Zaphael

New Member
From what I understand, information from the SniperXR can be relayed to ground forces in order to coordinate Close Air Support missions.
 

Red

New Member
It is interesting to note that Russia offered Singapore the Su-35 then; during the competition for new combat jets. However, Singapore went for the F15SGs;

http://img73.imageshack.us/img73/7678/eagleeyedstrikeplaneag4.jpg

Some interesting F15 captions from the local newspaper;

http://img73.imageshack.us/img73/5378/zuluhk0.jpg

You-tube`s RSAF latest recruitment video featuring the F15SG(last part);

[ame="http://http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=6JguuSoSw60&feature=related"]http://http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=6JguuSoSw60&feature=related[/ame]
 

OPSSG

Super Moderator
Staff member
Zaphael said:
From what I understand, information from the SniperXR can be relayed to ground forces in order to coordinate Close Air Support missions.
Yes, you are correct. The Sniper ATP includes:

(i) a modernized laser system, with greater reliability and the ability to operate at high altitudes;
(ii) an improved FLIR imager with greater resolution, reliability, and sensitivity, plus a CCD TV imager;
(iii) improved stabilization systems, for high-altitude release;
(iv)an up-to-date computer system, and automatic target recognition system; and
(v) a laser spot tracker and a night vision goggle (NVG) compatible laser marker.

The Sniper ATP can acquire targets at altitudes of up to 50,000 feet, for instance. These superior detection ranges are vital to pilots, helping keep them out of range of threat air defenses during their defining moments. Likewise, the supersonic, low-observable design results in a substantial reduction in drag and weight.

Sniper ATP - General Characteristics
Length: 94 inches (239 centimeters)
Diameter: 11.9 inches (30 centimeters)
Weight: 440 pounds (199 kilograms)
Aircraft: F-15E, F-16 Block 30/40/50, A-10, B-1

As the 20 RSAF block 52+ F-16Ds of the 145 Squadron (since the Vietnam war, the USAF calls planes used in SEAD roles as wild weasels) is rumoured to be used for SEAD missions, the RSAF need to give the "swift & valiant" hornets (pilots and WSOs) on these 2 seater F-16Ds a better chance of survival against SAMs. A better targeting pod will help.

Red said:
Singapore purchased sniper pods for her fleet of F16s as well.
For the sake of clarity, the RSAF is currently a user of the Litening pod. The total number of Litening pods purchased in the past, for our F-16s, were not disclosed.

Litening - General Characteristics
Length: 87 in (2.20 m)
Diameter: 16 in (0.406 m)
Weight: 440 lb (200 kg)
Aircraft: A-10, B-52H, F-14A/B/D, F-15E/D, AV-8B, F-18, F-16 Block 25/30/40/50, F-4E AUP
Unit Cost: $1.4 million

The LM press release states that we are upgrading to the Sniper ATP for the F-16s from 2010 onwards.

I wonder what will happen to the older Litening pods in 2010, given that their cost. I wonder if DSTA can do some work on then so that they be used in the F-5?

Post Script: Radar is often the primary means of anti-aircraft target detection and weapon guidance. Anti-aircraft weapon guidance now spans all sensor technologies. Therefore, terminal defenses in modern aircraft must include anti-radar, anti-infrared and anti-laser capabilities to defeat SAMs.

The increased resolution provided by the targeting pods and stand off strike bombs increase aircraft survivability. Part of this concern arose from the Kosovo air war in 1999. Much of the early unsuccessful forays against Serbia’s integrated air defense system (IADS) in Operation Allied Force may have stemmed from an overconfidence in NATO’s SEAD capability.

The survival tactics used by Serb IADS operators were first developed and tested in the no-fly zones of Iraq. It is reasonable to expect more of the same as potential future opponents continue to monitor western SEAD capabilities and adapting their tactics to counter SEAD efforts accordingly.
 
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Red

New Member
As the 20 RSAF block 52+ F-16Ds of the 145 Squadron (since the Vietnam war, the USAF calls planes used in SEAD roles as wild weasels) is rumoured to be used for SEAD missions, the RSAF need to give the "swift & valiant" hornets (pilots and WSOs) on these 2 seater F-16Ds a better chance of survival against SAMs. A better targeting pod will help.
What about the original 20 F16D Blk 52 "spines"? Are`nt they the original "wild weasels" in the RSAF? RSAF has at least 40 F16Ds.
 

OPSSG

Super Moderator
Staff member
In 1998, Flight International reported that certain RSAF F-16s were rumored to be configured like the F-16I.
Defence News, an online military and defence news portal, said if Lockheed offered the F-16I to India, it would be the first time an extensively modified US fighter containing non-US-made avionics, weaponry and major sub-systems... Lockheed has sold to Chile and Singapore F-16s that contained significant Israeli content, but those items were demanded by the customers from the start.
I'm not going to discuss the number of block 52s that are configured like the F-16I - as the RSAF has not declassified its SEAD capability. Rather, I'm going to talk about SEAD capabilities of other countries - from there you can have a good idea of how air forces deal with SEAD.

Conceptually, each SEAD F-16 must carry 3 pods: (i) a navigation pod, (ii) a targeting pod; and (iii) a radar targeting pod. IMHO, the bumps behind the F-16s and F-15SG are sensors and transmitters mainly for EW (for simplicity, the EL/L-8222, Jamming Pod and the EL/M-2160 MAWS, Missile Approach Warning System are not discussed).

The Weasels’ primary mission was negating surface-to-air-missile sites. This role eventually evolved into SEAD. The SEAD mission — with a motto of “first in, last out” — means F-16 pilots soar into enemy territory hoping SAMs turn on their radars and find them. When the enemy turns on its radar, the Wild Weasels find it. Then it’s a race. Who can fire first? Then, who can avoid the oncoming missiles?

IAF
The F-16Is of the IAF carry the EL/M-20600 RTP. RT Pod stands for Radar Targeting Pod. The RT Pod integrates a Synthetic Aperture Radar, Ground Moving Target Indication and precision target tracking.

The RT Pod provides high quality radar images of ground targets and terrain even through clouds, rain, fog, battlefield smoke and man-made camouflage

The IAF's RT Pod enables the F-16I to do the following:
(i) long range, wide area surveillance and reconnaissance;
(ii) detection, classification, precision tracking and targeting of ground targets;
(iii) optimized Time-Sensitive Targets engagement;
(iv) Network-Centric Warfare support: target data sharing and "kill sequence" execution;
(v) accurate geo-location data targets; and
(vi) is capable of installation on board trainers, helicopters and various aircraft.

Israel pulled out all the stops technologically in its raid on the nuclear facility in Syria called Operation Orchard, employing several new intelligence-gathering and strike systems in a chain of events stretching from satellite observations to precision bombing.

Israel's launch of a reconnaissance satellite in 2007 allowed the integration of electro-optical imaging from space, image enhancing algorithms, scene-matching guidance for precision weapons, and the use of advanced targeting pods carried by the IAF's two-man F-16Is. The backseater is a weapon systems officer who can focus on targeting and electronic warfare while the pilot focuses on flying and evading air defenses.

Sensors on the $45-million F-16I includes an APG-68(V)9 radar with high-resolution synthetic aperture radar mapping capability. The Litening targeting pod provided scene matching for images sent by the Spice-2000 missile.

In planned scenarios, the military would draw on enhanced satellite imagery for the weapon. The satellite pictures also can be provided in flight and, after a few minutes of manipulation, be uploaded into the weapon; but in the Syria scenario, that capability was apparently not required. The Spice-2000 has a standoff range exceeding 60 km, longer than the standard U.S.-build Joint Direct Attack Munition.

USAF
The US F-16CJ (a block 50 F-16) carries a AN/ASQ-213 HARM Targeting Systems (HTS) Pod. The R7 of the HTS Pod was deployed by the USAF in Sep 2006.

F-16CJ equipped with the HTS have independent targeting capability similar to that of the F-4G, but with less coverage in both frequency and location (The original concept called for teaming the F-15 Precision Direction Finding and the F-16 HTS). The current approach calls for the improvement of the HTS capability. The improvement will come from the Joint Emitter Targeting System (JETS), which facilitates the use of HARM's most effective mode when launched from any JETS capable aircraft.

The F-16CJ uses -- the Link-16 datalink, JHMCS, GPS and HTS. The F-16CJs to share a bewildering variety of data with a wide range of platforms including other fighters, AWACS, J-STARS, Rivet Joint recce planes, and Aegis cruisers, to name a few.

There are however limitations to the HTS Pod and the RT Pod. They have limited power. The USAF has worked around this limitation by deploying the RC-135V/W Rivet Joint electronic recce aircraft.

The Rivet Joint will orbit out of the range of hostile air defences, and perform as an electronic vacuum cleaner, receiving, identifying and locating any radar or radio emissions in the area of interest. Should an emitter be considered a threat to US aircraft, SEAD fighters are sent to engage the emitter.

Therefore, the Rivet Joint provides the big picture situational awareness. The Rivet Joint may also broadcast general advisories to combat aircraft operating in the area, as well as coordinate standoff jamming operations by the EF-18. Emitter details may also be passed to AWACS via datalink.

Conclusion - Look out for the RT Pod Carried
The invention of these USAF and IAF pods has has resulted in semi-dedicated SEAD F-16s, which are essentially fighters fitted with such a rangefinding receiver and supporting software as an adjunct to the aircraft's existing EW suite, but are otherwise available and fully capable of performing the standard strike mission.

Remember, the RSAF has a customised engineering road map to deal with the Rapier missiles and other shorads (like the Starburst, the Anza Mark II and the Igla missiles). IMHO, we should not assume that RSAF capability = IAF capability.
 
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OPSSG

Super Moderator
Staff member
funtz said:
The data transfer rate on the link 16 has to be more than the vintage one on Su-30 it is designed to do much more (including being compatible with the AWACs that were around), i doubt that has to be demonstrated to the IAF.

Just out of curiosity how much data transfer rate is utilized between a fighter and a AEWC&C platform?
If I'm not wrong, the data communication rate between a fighter and an AWAC is determined by the type of data link found in a fighter. A common link-16 datalink is the MIDS LVT, see below:

Data Link - Link 16, IJMS
Secure voice - 2.4 kbps LPC - 10
capability - 16 kbps CVSD
Navigation - TACAN
Identification - direct and indirect
Data throughput 238 kbps (107 for L 16)
Expandable to 2 Mbps
 

funtz

New Member
If I'm not wrong, the data communication rate between a fighter and an AWAC is determined by the type of data link found in a fighter. A common link-16 datalink is the MIDS LVT, see below:

Data Link - Link 16, IJMS
Secure voice - 2.4 kbps LPC - 10
capability - 16 kbps CVSD
Navigation - TACAN
Identification - direct and indirect
Data throughput 238 kbps (107 for L 16)
Expandable to 2 Mbps
And how much of that is utilized got A-A missions/ painting the whole situational awareness picture on a plane connected with a AWAC?
 

gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
And how much of that is utilized got A-A missions/ painting the whole situational awareness picture on a plane connected with a AWAC?

you can get meaningful tac data over 4k.

the comms traffic volume numbers to an AWACs is not public domain.

but, the US mudmap is to cater for 25gb links by 2015.


we're already seeing improved discretion over existing links due to advances in the tech. eg a year ago single feeds were possible, tech using the same "collector" is achieving 65 times that - and thats without looking at what Link22 is delivering.
 

cobzz

New Member
I understand this is off topic, but maybe an experianced member could just shoot me a single reply... how many USAF F-15s are getting AESA?
 

Red

New Member
How many F16's does Singapore have in total and how many are based in Country ?
RSAF does not reveal the number of planes in the country nor the actual orbat. Official available figures put it at 70(62 C/D Blk 52s plus and 8 A/Bs) purchased with a couple more Blk 52s in the US leased for training and possibly combat attrition reserves. Around 12 Blk 52s are leased according to this site;

http://www.faqs.org/docs/air/avf163.html

The latter purchase option could have already been exercised when Singapore gave the A/Bs to Thailand as a gift. At any rate, that would put the current F16 holdings at 74 Blk 52/Blk 52 plus frames minus the F16 A/Bs given to Thailand.
 
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A

Aussie Digger

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OPSSG

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AESA radar technology

The AN/APG-63(V)3 AESA radar on the F-15SG is limited to a 120 degree field of view in the forward direction. When operating as a radar, the AESA radar transmits waveforms that change from burst to burst, and are sent at random frequencies. This means that the changing signal is very difficult for an enemy to detect. The AESA radar can also simultaneously emit several tight beams to perform different functions, including locating electronic systems, classifying them, and alerting the pilot to possible threats or high-priority targets.

If another aircraft does manage to detect the signal, it must then try to get a radar lock on. The AESA radar analyzes the enemy's radar and sends out a jamming burst to disrupt the lock. The radar then goes on to other tasks until the enemy radar begins its lock cycle again. But the AESA radar is not intended to give the F-15SG a "standoff jamming" capability by itself.
"First-generation APG-77s [used on the F-22] reached their temperature limits already in radar mode. This problem seems to have been resolved on more recent versions, but in jamming mode the APG-77 cannot transmit for more than one second without damaging the radar. Also, experts have commented that jamming is effective over a frequency band that is too narrow to effectively counter all airborne threats."

...

"Half of the 400 million [euro] in funding for the Rafale "Roadmap"... has been earmarked for the introduction of an active array antenna on the RBE2. This will involve an array of around 1,000 GaAs transmit/receive modules... The goal is to have the resulting AA version of the RBE2 ready for series production to equip Rafales delivered from 2012..."

[a hat tip to Grand Danois for highlighting these articles]
The AESA radar also collects information on the electronic order of battle in the operational area, locating electronic systems, classifying them, and alerting the pilot to possible threats or high-priority targets.

With future developments of the AESA radar, the F-15SG can become an extension of the RSAF's AWACS radar coverage. Coupled with its ability to operate in both air-to-air and air-to-ground mode at the same time, the AN/APG-63(V)3 enhances the SAF's situational awareness.

I also wonder if Israel has plans for further upgrades to the F-15I.
 
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OPSSG

Super Moderator
Staff member
Synthetic Aperture Radar and Scud Hunting

12 Nov 2008 ELTA Systems Ltd., was recently awarded two contracts from a customer in the Far East...

(i) One $20 million contract is for EL/M-2055 Synthetic Aperture Radar (SAR) UAV payloads. These are airborne, all-weather surface Image Intelligence (IMINT) systems, based on Synthetic Aperture Radar technology.

(ii) The second contract is valued at $19.5 million and is for Airborne Maritime Surveillance Radars for Maritime Patrol Aircraft.

[NB. A hat tip to weasel1962 for posting this first elsewhere]
No prizes for guessing which country in the Far East (with Brunei and Korea being the other likely candidates) that is acquiring synthetic aperture radar technology, especially since the RSAF has a UAV command (that operates the Hermes 450 and equipped with the compass 4 sensor) and also operates 4 x Fokker 50, Maritime Patrol Aircraft.

I note that the EL/M-2055M mounted on a Hermes 450 will have a range of less than 100 km (and is capable of 10,000 km2 / hr wide area search). It is clear that synthetic aperture radar technology will be important for any modern air force.

Given Singapore's purchase of 50 Link-16 MIDS-LVTs (and that the RSAF is in the process of acquiring 24 F-15SG), we can make an educated guess where these additional Link-16 systems are going.

IMHO, looking at these technological developments (in targeting pods and synthetic aperture radar mounted in UAVs), the air force's ability to influence the ground battle has taken a great leap forward since the Scud hunting days of Gulf War I.
DSO Creating the Technology Edge : 30th Anniversary Commemorative Book
DSO’s work in radar led naturally to... Synthetic Aperture Radar or SAR. This technology goes well beyond the capabilities of normal radar systems, enabling the high resolution mapping of terrain, the detection and tracking of surface targets in a cluttered background, and high accuracy target recognition...

In SAR research, the DSO team has had the opportunity to collaborate with Singapore universities and overseas research organisations. They soon learned that engineers had to work alongside mathematicians and physicists... The deeper understanding of the problems and the much-improved solutions which resulted were well-worth the effort, and opened a new chapter in DSO’s radar R&D.
 
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OPSSG

Super Moderator
Staff member
Mysia gets Flankers, Sing gets F 15's...

RMAF thread said:
See Link for original discussion
nevidimka said:
I dont know why you were giving some info on AESA and say its the doctrine of RSAF... it [is] more than a coincidence when Sing decides to make a big or upgrades to fit doctrines as u say purchases.

Is it operational doctrine then that:
(i) Mysia gets the R 77, Sing gets the AMRAAM
(ii) Mysia buys T 91's, Sing gets Apaches and german Leapord A4's
(iii) Mysia gets Astros, Sing gets US MLRS
(iv) Mysia gets Flankers, Sing gets F 15's...

Why is the timing for each types seem to correlate to each other?
...why is it that suddenly it was necessary to get F 15's? for AESA? you can do that by upgrading the f 16's with AESA easily... But I dont want or think there will be war between us, as its damaging economically.
[Let's discuss this in good spirit.]
1. In light of the AESA and the other new radar technology discussion above, it is appropriate for me to respond to nevidimka's post here:

(i) Both Singapore and Malaysia were offered the AMRAAM at the same time. The US condition (at that time) was that they were to be stored in Guam. Singapore agreed to the US conditions - Malaysia went to purchase the Su-30MKM (along with the R-27, R-73 and R-77 missiles). Which then resulted in the US giving Thailand and Singapore access to AMRAAM. It is important to note that Malaysia's F-18Ds are armed with AMRAAMs too.

(ii) For example, Malaysia's purchase of MBTs gave Singapore the excuse not to hide our upgraded MBT capability. According to Tim Huxley, our 1st gen MBTs are over 30 years old, isn't it reasonable for us to upgrade to the Leopard 2A4?
Defending the Lion City: The Armed Forces of Singapore, page 131
"In 1975, the SAF purchased 63 Centurion MBTs from India and a second batch from Israel in 1993-94 bringing the total to at least 80... Singapore's Centurions have all been modernised... featuring new main guns... [and] are known as Tempests...

Apparently for fear of provoking controversy with Singapore's neigbours, Mindef has never admitted that the SAF operates MBTs."
Tim Huxley​
(iii) Singapore's solution to Malaysia's acquisition of the [ame]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Astros_II[/ame] is not [ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HIMARS"]High Mobility Artillery Rocket System - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia@@AMEPARAM@@/wiki/File:Question_book-new.svg" class="image"><img alt="Question book-new.svg" src="http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/9/99/Question_book-new.svg/50px-Question_book-new.svg.png"@@AMEPARAM@@en/thumb/9/99/Question_book-new.svg/50px-Question_book-new.svg.png[/ame] (because it would be too late once the MLRS is fired:rolleyes:). The solution to unconventional warfare (be it IEDs or Scuds or MLRS) is setting up a system to enable the SAF to gather better intelligence as follows:
(a) the creation of a military intelligence battalion in 2005, having learnt from the US the importance of intelligence in Iraq in fighting an unconventional war (in addition to Singapore's existing LRRPs, MRRPs and scouts); and

(b) the use of synthetic aperture radar technology in UAVs to gather better intelligence.
(iv) I believe that the RSAF achieved technological superiority viz a viz Singapore's neighbours since the acquisition of AWACS. That is why the focus is on buying more bomb trucks (rather than single seater planes).

2. From my post above, would you agree that you need to gather your facts first?

3. Obviously you do not understand the meaning of military doctrine (AESA ≠ doctrine).

(i) The technology used in 3G SAF means that advances in technology MAY result in the need to adapt or change our existing doctrine.

(ii) Please read before commenting - changes in technology can result in changes in tactics and doctrines. A technology change is not a change in doctrine.

(iii) But that's OK, you don't have a prior military background. We'll leave that to another discussion.

4. Since [ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Progress_of_the_SARS_outbreak"]Progress of the SARS outbreak - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame], the Singapore government is more worried about biological (like the bird flu), chemical threats (sarin gas attack) and terrorist bombings. Hence the billions spent in preparing against biological and chemical threats. In fact, I can cite examples of Singapore's technology benefiting Malaysia during the SARs outbreak and in fighting piracy.
The 1995 Tokyo sarin attack triggered the requirement for the rapid identification of agents... It was also the year when... the Applied Chemistry Lab (ACL), had a breakthrough in developing new technology for the rapid sampling and analysis of chemical agents. This involvement paved the way for ACL to be the de facto national agency for chemical defence research...
5. Our demographics ensure that the SAF will be much smaller in future - our "total fertility rate" is less than 1.3 (ie. for every 2 serving NSFs/soldiers - only 1.3 will available to replace them in future). The replacement fertility rate is 2.1. This demographic trend means a long term decline in the number of Singapore men available to serve in the SAF (at least - 35% force reduction).

6. We can't even catch 1 [ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mas_Selamat_bin_Kastari"]Mas Selamat bin Kastari - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia@@AMEPARAM@@/wiki/File:Mas_Selamat_bin_Kastari.jpg" class="image"><img alt="" src="http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/f/f9/Mas_Selamat_bin_Kastari.jpg/180px-Mas_Selamat_bin_Kastari.jpg"@@AMEPARAM@@en/thumb/f/f9/Mas_Selamat_bin_Kastari.jpg/180px-Mas_Selamat_bin_Kastari.jpg[/ame] :D - so be like the Indonesians and Thais who don't worry about Singapore's force modernization.
The... shocking discovery of the Jemaah Islamiah group in Singapore, have brought home... the threats of global terrorism. It has brought greater urgency to efforts DSO initiated... can also be applied to other facets of our national security to counter asymmetric threats.
7. IMHO, we can both agree that Singapore is not interested in picking a fight with Malaysia. Singapore merely has the capability to respond to a potential threat (which may not even be military in nature).
 
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