Republic of Singapore Air Force Discussions

[weasel1962]

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[SGMilitary]

Greetings.

There is speculation that the RSAF may go for the T-50 or M346.

And according to some rumours, the RSAF may procure up to 24 jets

in phases.

There has been speculation that the RSAF actually operates more than

5 units of EC120 Colibri training helicopters.

I've read an article that mentioned RSAF is going to ink the deal to

procure between 20-24 additional F-15SG from Boeing as this quantity was

opted out by South Korea.

Will the RSAF eventually procured more CH47SD/F or S70B Seahawks?

Any link that the RSAF had procured Spyder SR air defence system and

is inking the deal to procure French/European Aster 30 SAMPT and Crotale

NG air defence system?

Any information to share?

Cheers!

 

[bloodsucker]

Wow SGMilitary I havent even heard of half the news that u posted. About the S-70 seahawks thing, yes I think that Singapore will buy more of them. Would be useful to replace the Super Pumas as a seaborne rescue heli.

 

[weasel1962]

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[weasel1962]

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[SGMilitary]

Dear Weasel,

Thank you for your update.

However, do you think the RSAF will stop at 24 F-15SG?

In Wikipedia, it was mentioned the RSAF has plan to procure bewteen

60-80 F-15SG depending on the progress of JSF.

Cheers!

 

[superhornet]

Dear Weasel,

Thank you for your update.

However, do you think the RSAF will stop at 24 F-15SG?

In Wikipedia, it was mentioned the RSAF has plan to procure bewteen

60-80 F-15SG depending on the progress of JSF.

Cheers!

yeah, it makes some sense. i agree that Singapore will procure about 20 new F-15S, but it will never procure 60-80 F-15S. certainly RSAF will procure JSF as the next generation attacking platform. so 20 will be consider as an transitional fighter to combine with its F-16 to restore air power. because its neighbors has been trying to get russian made 3-generation fighters like Su-27 and Su-30. F-15S will make singapore set up air superiority over its neighbor with the latest high-tech ASEA radar ,advanced missiles and precise bombs. :

 

[weasel1962]

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[just.sentinel]

Just found this thread! Singapore has eliminated the hawk, and it is now between the T-50 and M-346

http://www.flightglobal.com/article...ngapore-eliminates-bae-hawk-from-trainer.html

 

[weasel1962]

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[weasel1962]

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[Ramjetmissile]

WASHINGTON --- On July 9, the Defense Security Cooperation Agency notified Congress of a possible Foreign Military Sale to Singapore of Major Defense Equipment and associated equipment and services.

The total value, if all options are exercised, could be as high as $962 million.

The Government of Singapore has requested a possible sale of the following Major Defense Equipment:

-- 72 AIM-120C-5 Advanced Medium Range Air-to-Air Missiles (AMRAAM)
-- 128 AIM-120C-7 AMRAAM
-- 6 AMRAAM Captive Air Training Missiles (CATMs)
-- 50 MK-82 (GBU-38) Joint Direct Attack Munitions (JDAM) with BLU-111 Warhead
-- 71 AN/AVS-9 (V) Night Vision Goggles
-- 50 Link 16 Multifunctional Information Distribution System-Low Volume Terminals (Fighter Data Link (FDL) Terminals)
-- 30 AGM-154A-1 Joint Standoff Weapons (JSOW) with BLU-111 Warhead
-- 30 AGM-154C JSOW
-- 300,000 20mm Practice Round Cartridges
-- 200 AIM-9X SIDEWINDER Missiles
-- 4 AIM-9X SIDEWINDER Special Air Training Missiles (NATMs)
-- 32 AIM-9X SIDEWINDER Captive Air Training Missiles (CATMs)
-- 8 Tactical-9X WGU-51/B Guidance Units
-- 12 CATM-9X WGU-51/B Guidance Units
-- 72 MK-82 500lb Empty Bombs (Flight Test Only)
-- 4 GBU-12 Bombs w/o Fuse (Flight Test Only)
-- 4 Computer Control Group (Flight Test Only)
-- 100 KMU-556/B JDAM Bomb Tail Kit Assemblies
-- 4 MK-82/MK-84 Bomb Practice trainers

Also included are testing, integration, devices, missile containers, common munitions built-in test reprogramming equipment, aircrew safety equipment, mission data production system, drones, repair and return, electronic warfare systems and support, weapons trainers, software support and test equipment, life support and survival equipment, spares and repair parts, publications and technical documentation, personnel training and training equipment, U.S. Government and contractor technical and logistics personnel services, and other related elements of logistical and program support. The estimated cost is $962 million.

This proposed sale will contribute to the foreign policy and national security of the United States by helping to improve the security of a friendly country that has been, and continues to be, an important force for economic progress in Southeast Asia.

There will be no adverse impact on U.S. defense readiness as a result of this proposed sale.

 

[weasel1962]

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[SGMilitary]

The RSAF is changing.

With the add on weaponry, there is little doubt left that we are procuring

more F-15SG. Possibly similar number to F-16 which stands at 62.

Are there plans to procure Global Hawk or C-17?

Anyone have any info if the replacement for Fokker 50 MPA will materialise?

What about the plan purchase of 100 JSF?

Cheers!

 

[OPSSG]

The Straits Times (ST) at page A8 reported that first of 24 state-of-the-art fighter jets destined for the RSAF has officially rolled off the factory floor in the United States.

The F-15SG Strike Eagles come with conformal fuel tanks and are powered by the F110-GE-129 turbofans - with 29,000 lbs of thrust (like the ROKAF F-15Ks) and fitted with a Link 16 digital data link; radios, IFF, and navigation gear, a passive infrared search and track (IRST) sensor; and the AN/APG-63(V)3 AESA radar.

According to overly simplistic reporting by ST, the F-15SG is equipped with the Joint Helmet Mounted Cueing System. ST also reported the the F-15SG carries an EW suite, but in typical Singapore style, the specific EW suite is not confirmed. Online rumors suggest that the F-15SG incorporates some technology supplied by Israeli, including possibly the Elbit SPS-2100 Integrated Electronic Warfare System.

ST LOUIS (MISSOURI): The first batch of Boeing F-15SGs which are on schedule to be delivered next year, the Defence Ministry said this morning ahead of an unveiling ceremony at Boeing's plant in St Louis, Missouri.

The jets will replace the RSAF's retired fleet of... A4SU Super Skyhawk fighter-bombers... Revealing details on the plane for the first time, Mindef said it is the 'most advanced and technologically sophisticated' F-15 built to date... Mindef said the radar has an 'extended detection range' which allows the F-15SG to pick up and engage targets before it is even spotted by the enemy...

When the first batch are ready for delivery next year, the twin-seater planes will be sent to an RSAF detachment stationed at a US Air Force Base in the state of Idaho, where pilots will sharpen their skills. Singapore pilots have already been training on the US military's F-15Es.

One of them, Lieutenant Colonel Lim Chee Meng, told The Straits Times the chosen aircrew are among the best in the RSAF. The F-15SG detachment commander said the plane has a different feel from the RSAF's incumbent F-16s and F-5s. It takes a 'bit more finesse' to handle, partly because of its larger size. 'As the aircraft is heavier and has a heavier weapons load, we may need to take a bit more time to be accustomed to the characteristics...to handle the plane at maximum performance,' he said.

The acquisition of the F-15SG is managed by the DSTA (as program manager). It includes a US$200 m (Aug 07 SP) and a US$962 m (July 08 SP) support package announced in Aug 2007 and July 2008, respectively. The Aug 07 SP included flight training, software development/integration, modification kits, spares and repair parts and logistics. The July 08 SP included the acquisition of AIM120C-5/7, JDAMs, JSOW and the AIM 9X.

Kindly note that in the July 08 SP included 50 Link-16 MIDS-LVTs. IMHO, these MIDS-LVTs terminals are used not only for the F-15SG but to possibly integrate them with other elements of the SAF, including its existing E-2C AWACs and for Singapore's new G550 CAEW with the EL/W-2085 Phalcon AESA.

This picture enclosed was just posted online by the former ST defence correspondent, who goes by the handle "ChineseJunk" (whose reports are so much more competent than the current ST reporting).

 

[OPSSG]

Originally Posted by guppy
HK_Thoughtful, I agree the F-15SG is a reasonable aircraft. However, is reasonable good enough to last another 20-30 years? Where and what is the F-15 MLU going to look like? The F-15SG is already a MLU of the original F-15 in its own right.

I think the Eagle is a poor choice for 2 reasons:
1. Legacy issues. Although packed with new wepaons/avionics systems, the integrated logistics support concept remains largely unchanged. Mostly, it would probably be maintained like a current generation F-16C. Another issue is training. You flip less than 10 switches to start the Rafale. You take 15 mins and a whole full checklist to start a Strike Eagle with 2 crew (assuming the jet has not been prepared for alert duties). Which is easier to train the pilot? These has long term implications.

2. No real sustainable air superiority edge. While capable, it does not have a real significant air superiority edge against the SU-30 class threat. The SU-30 class threat should not be underestimated. Thrust vectoring enables very efficient/effective launch and leave BVR missile tactics (Think launch high and fast, decelerate, and accelerate very quickly to leave the engagement). That combined with the superior weapon carriage of the SU-30, Israeli/Indian/French avionics makes the SU very formidable. The AESA/Link-16/AMRAAM capability is already available in some F-15Cs today. Although the F-15SG's AESA would be improved, I doubt it would be significant. Also, the US is famous for selling to foreign nations FMS versions, which are usually downgraded from their true capabilities. The RSAF can only hope that the US will eventually develop a newer and more capable AMRAAM...

Like Aussie Digger, I disagree with what guppy said above. I would like to explain why.

Post Script: Given DSO's attitude cited below, I believe that guppy's statement that the F-15SG offers "no real sustainable air superiority edge" - IS WRONG

DSO Creating the Technology Edge : 30th Anniversary Commemorative Book
“Our belief was not just to buy another weapon system from the market which anyone else could buy. But it was to build or incorporate extra value into the system which would give that element of surprise. How to make it customised to our needs, terrain, environment. And how you could build in a secret-edge advantage.”

TEO MING KIAN
former Permanent Secretary
(Defence Development)​

Since the arrival of the E-2C AWACS more than 20 years ago, Singapore no longer thinks in terms of plane vs plane contest. At a seminar in Feb 2007, Singapore's chief defence scientist stated that Singapore's goal was to:

(i) acquire capability rather than hardware; and
(ii) to invest in key technologies that ensure a clear lead.

IMHO, the goal of the RSAF is to render any notional opponent deaf and blind via EW and strike at them from a far. Therefore, the F-15SG purchase was not to enable RSAF to face off against the Su-30MKM/F-18D in WVR combat.

Let me cite some developments and place them in the correct context to support my argument above:

1. Israel and the US have demonstrated the importance of dominance of the electromagnetic space, in Bekka Valley in 1982 and in Gulf War I and II. Hence, Singapore's chief defence scientist's concern with electromagnetic space. The initial DSO code name for EW was "Project Magpie" and the department called the "Electronics Test Centre" was set up in 1972.

2. Singapore cannot afford and does not have access to F-22. Our fighters do not have a significant advantage against an Su-30MKM/F-18D in a WVR battle. Hence the focus on EW, BVR combat and stand off strike:
-the Aug 07 SP and July 08 SP cited in the previous post gives a clear indication of Singapore's improved capability in BVR combat and stand off strike.

3. And we also cannot afford to buy the different types of aircraft with the same or similar capabilities. Each aircraft type (the F-16C, F-16D, F-15SG and F-35) must play a district role - so that they are carrying the correct ordinance for efficient air tasking.

3.1 The block 52+ F-16s acquisition in 2004 gave Singapore a stronger capability EW and specifically in SEAD (rumored to have a configuration similar to the Israeli F-16I, with Israeli avionics and other kit).

3.2 The F-15SG gives the RSAF improved capabilities in terms of:

(i) time on station (for offensive and defensive counter air) and loiter;
(ii) an increase in combat radius, thereby gaining a deep strike capability; and
(iii) improved informational awareness of the electronic order of battle.

4. The key technology enabler is AESA. IMO, the long term developmental goal is to make the F-15SG an extension of the G550 CAEW (click on the link to see the 2008 brochure)- it just happens to be able to engage in counter air operations while it loiters (all the while providing better informational awareness for all in the battle group).

 

[Human Bass]

Tried and true F-15 with state of the art electronics is almost instant win as long its well used.

 

[Red]

On a sidenote, Singapore bought more Link 16s than there are F15SG. Im assuming there will be another batch of F15SG very soon.

 

[OPSSG]

Thanks for your comments and the update. Please PM me on how you get the number of F-16s. It does not tally with the numbers I've see elsewhere (I'm not saying that this link is correct).

I agree and I expect another order for the next 24 sometime in 2009. The next order is to keep the F-15 production line open.

I'm pretty sure the extra link-16s are not for future F-15s. They are for integration with "other platforms".

 

[funtz]

Russian data-link technology as currently fitted to the SU-30 is not particularly capable. The Link 16 the SingAF will use is a vastly superior system and this was demonstrated to the Indians quite succinctly in their recent Red Flag visit.

Modern sensing capability was also lacking in the Indian SU-30, hence the rapid introduction of a Litening AT capability onto the 6x aircraft they deployed to Red Flag.

The data transfer rate on the link 16 has to be more than the vintage one on Su-30 it is designed to do much more (including being compatible with the AWACs that were around), i doubt that has to be demonstrated to the IAF.

Just out of curiosity how much data transfer rate is utilized between a fighter and a AEWC&C platform?

Litening pod has been with the SU-30MKI from the time they were planed to be MKI, it was not introduced on the 6X aircrafts that went to Red Flag for flying air to ground missions.

Again, the Singaporean F-15SG will be using Sniper XR targetting pods. A generation beyond even Litening AT...

You mean in capability? Dont they use the same generation systems?
RAFAEL-Northrop Grumman vs. Lockheed Martin