Russia-Georgia Conflict: News From the War zone

[SkolZkiy]

No new types, yes. But plenty of modernized stuff that hasn't seen action before (like the Su-25SM). Now you say the Iskanders were launched. Do you have a positive confirmation for that? And how do you know how many men the Georgians lost? Where you live doesn't help, because the fighting is across the border, and empirical reports aren't enough to make a statistic unless you have some serious data-processing set up.

In other words do you have a source for your information or should we take the word of an anonymous forum user for it?

And if any of the mods can confirm where his IP is from, that would help greatly in establishing validity or absence of.

Feanor, my friend(military) saw them with his own eyes (and he is not the only witness) is that enough??
About georgian losses - it is also information from guys who were there not like tourists(Russian losses were also bigger then it was said something like 300-400 men). Yes it is not a real statistics but exactly their losses numberd in thousands but not several hundreds. Ickanders burned a group of something like 100 tanks T-72 on their march to Tshinval with all it's covering, just count.

About mordenized one's - may be you are right. But according to this all these tanks must upgraded inside of them (internal systems I mean) because outside they didn't differ from old ones. And I not only one who says that =) but trully I have no friends who fought there on tanks (only infantry)

Nevidimka please read my post more attentively I am from North Ossetia not South - it's situated right behind the Caucasian mountains in Russian territory =))

About Su-25 officially we lost 3 them and 1 Tu-22. as for the damaged aircrafts I have no info. But Su-25 is very survivable, it can return to base even with one working engine and many hits, pilots are well defended. So it is very possible that they could be damaged by SAMs and then returned back to russia.

 

[Feanor]

Feanor, my friend(military) saw them with his own eyes (and he is not the only witness) is that enough??
About georgian losses - it is also information from guys who were there not like tourists(Russian losses were also bigger then it was said something like 300-400 men). Yes it is not a real statistics but exactly their losses numberd in thousands but not several hundreds. Ickanders burned a group of something like 100 tanks T-72 on their march to Tshinval with all it's covering, just count.

How do you know their losses numbered in the thousands? Did someone count corpses? Again I can believe large losses, but how large is wholly up in the air. It does seem that Iskanders were used, a Janes article mentions the Dutch MoD claiming as much. but 100 T-72s destroyed by Iskander fire? Very, very unlikely. ~60 Georgian tanks were captured (not destroyed) and the entire Georgian Army only had 165 T-72 tanks.

About mordenized one's - may be you are right. But according to this all these tanks must upgraded inside of them (internal systems I mean) because outside they didn't differ from old ones. And I not only one who says that =) but trully I have no friends who fought there on tanks (only infantry)

Well look at the T-72 pics. Many have K5. That's a modernized retro-fit. Not just internal too. Anyways, that's a minor point. I was hoping for something a little more interesting.

About Su-25 officially we lost 3 them and 1 Tu-22. as for the damaged aircrafts I have no info. But Su-25 is very survivable, it can return to base even with one working engine and many hits, pilots are well defended. So it is very possible that they could be damaged by SAMs and then returned back to russia.

So it is possible that it's more then 3 that were damaged and returned to base. Oh and btw just curious what you think. Do you think that the Tu-22 was an M3 variant or an MR variant? If it was an M3, then it was strategic airforce. If it was an MR variant then it would be the 11th independent recon regiment part of the N-Caucus MD, and thus tactical aviation. The MoD statement claims it was a Tu-22 on a recon flight, and didn't specify which variant.

 

[SkolZkiy]

How do you know their losses numbered in the thousands? Did someone count corpses? Again I can believe large losses, but how large is wholly up in the air. It does seem that Iskanders were used, a Janes article mentions the Dutch MoD claiming as much. but 100 T-72s destroyed by Iskander fire? Very, very unlikely. ~60 Georgian tanks were captured (not destroyed) and the entire Georgian Army only had 165 T-72 tanks.



Well look at the T-72 pics. Many have K5. That's a modernized retro-fit. Not just internal too. Anyways, that's a minor point. I was hoping for something a little more interesting.



So it is possible that it's more then 3 that were damaged and returned to base. Oh and btw just curious what you think. Do you think that the Tu-22 was an M3 variant or an MR variant? If it was an M3, then it was strategic airforce. If it was an MR variant then it would be the 11th independent recon regiment part of the N-Caucus MD, and thus tactical aviation. The MoD statement claims it was a Tu-22 on a recon flight, and didn't specify which variant.

yes one regiment is based in Mozdok in our republic. Some military says it was M3 modification and was doing there what he biult for but I have no also exact info about this.

About Georgian army - it had something like 240 tanks T-72 (most of them they get from Ukrain), some of them were modernized by Israel and Ukrain.
They many other armoured weapon from Ukrain =)

 

[SkolZkiy]

http://www.lenta.ru/articles/2008/08/13/tech/
this is the article about Goergian army (sorry but on Russian)

 

[Feanor]

It's ok I am Russian and read it quite fluently. Hmm appears you're right. I, off the top of my head, confused one of the deals for T-72s, for the total number. The article you mentioned however does include the Tu-22 as the MR variant. In any event I would find if most disturbing if indeed it was an M3. It would indicate very low readyness levels in the frontal aviation in the N-Caucus MD.

 

[Haavarla]

It's ok I am Russian and read it quite fluently. Hmm appears you're right. I, off the top of my head, confused one of the deals for T-72s, for the total number. The article you mentioned however does include the Tu-22 as the MR variant. In any event I would find if most disturbing if indeed it was an M3. It would indicate very low readyness levels in the frontal aviation in the N-Caucus MD.

Does anybody know how many Flankers and witch regiment they operated from, during the conflict?

 

[Feanor]

Scramble lists the 3rd IAP operating out of Krymsk flying Flankers, and the 209th Gds IAP out of Astrakhan-Privolzhskiy.

Warfare.ru lists the 3rd IAP and the 209th, with the 209th allegedly disbanded in 2006.

Wikipedia lists the 3rd IAP as the only one flying Flankers in the N. Caucus.

MDB lists only one regiment flying Flankers in the North Caucus, without specifying.

So between all of them it's probably the 3rd IAP.

 

[Firehorse]

BBC finally acknowledges Georgia’s aggression against South Ossetia
http://english.pravda.ru/world/europe/29-10-2008/106635-bbc_georgia-0

I don't think it's possible for Saakashvili to stay in power for much longer- the public opinion inside and outside Georgia (including the West) is turning against his regime, forcing him to stay in damage control mode. Right or wrong, he lost. Now he may join L. Galtieri of Argentina on the scrapheap of history.

 

[ASFC]

What that article does not tell you, because it is Russian, is that the BBC and the HRW criticised both sides and admitted that there was evidence that both sides were commiting war crimes. I don't see what is so spectacular about the BBC owning up to it when it has been well known for some time that both sides have been doing things they shouldn't be to civilians. The report reminded me of Bosnia in the 1990's and both sides should be ashamed of what happened.

Unfortunately Saakashvilli's major supporter is the US not the BBC.

 

[SkolZkiy]

Saakashvili will go away after some guys in Washington find another guy to be the leader of Georgia who would be suitable to continue anti-Russian way =) or till ГРУ (MIA) will kill him (but I doubt our guys will do such foolish thing).
In any war there are crimes - IN ANY. Remember US and other forces in Iraq and Afgan - you really think they are innocent??? Export of drugs (geroin) from Afgan incremented at least twice or more if we count from the begining of the US inervation.

 

[Firehorse]

Georgia Used Cluster Bombs That Hit Civilians, Group Says
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB122575792818995257.html

Either Georgians didn't know how to use them, or Israel sold them the defective ones- or both! I remember reading the same or very similar thing about Israeli cluster munitions in S. Lebanon. At least the Russians don't appear to be having that problem with "mulfunctioning" cluster bombs- perhaps they don't rely n them as much!

 

[Feanor]

Russia claims to not have used any iirc.

 

[Firehorse]

Georgia Claims on Russia War Called Into Question
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/11/07/w...ml?_r=1&th=&emc=th&pagewanted=all&oref=slogin

Some dramatic accounts and pictures here-
Inside a Misunderstood Conflict Zone

Georgia's Saakashvili weathering storm
http://www.silobreaker.com/DocumentReader.aspx?Item=5_922629380

Georgians rally against president
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/7715735.stm

Very dark clouds are gathering above Georgian president- even the NYT & US State Department changed their tone! Before long, 180 degree reversal will manifest itself, and we will have more things to discuss!

 

[nevidimka]

It will be interesting to see how Saakashvilli respond to the growing opposition to his position by doing the democratic thing by resigning or the undemocratic way by fighting with iron fist. But since he is a man of Democracy.. I think he will do the democratic way..

 

[gf0012-aust]

Very dark clouds are gathering above Georgian president- even the NYT & US State Department changed their tone! Before long, 180 degree reversal will manifest itself, and we will have more things to discuss!

Absolute rubbish.. US State Dept persistently told Saakashvilli that he was overstepping the mark and that he was walking into something.

This kind of comment is why you got banned before - you must be attracted to getting banned all the time....you seem to be a slow learner.

 

[Feanor]

Absolute rubbish.. US State Dept persistently told Saakashvilli that he was overstepping the mark and that he was walking into something.

This kind of comment is why you got banned before - you must be attracted to getting banned all the time....you seem to be a slow learner.

Really? Do you have a link that the State Department actively discouraged Georgian use of force? All I've heard from them are condemnation of Russian "disproportionate force" and tacit admittances that Georgia overstepped their bounds which came post factum and quite a bit later (after it became obvious who the aggressor was).

 

[gf0012-aust]

Really? Do you have a link that the State Department actively discouraged Georgian use of force? All I've heard from them are condemnation of Russian "disproportionate force" and tacit admittances that Georgia overstepped their bounds which came post factum and quite a bit later (after it became obvious who the aggressor was).

We were getting noise weeks prior to it happening that he should not walk into it. That view has been persistent.

The fact that he was an idiot is hardly a US responsibility. The US did have an obligation post event to try and back him in a non intervention role. They were hardly going to go into bat for a bloke who had ignored their advice - as well as the frantic noises that the Estonians had also made about what was happening.

 

[SkolZkiy]

and the fact that all his army and even himself are sponsored by US and EU - are they responsable for this??

 

[gf0012-aust]

and the fact that all his army and even himself are sponsored by US and EU - are they responsable for this??

Were the russians responsible for Gadaffi?

Were the russians responsible for Nasser?

Were the French responsible for Rwanda

Were the British responsible for Kenya

Were the Belgians responsible for the B Congo?

Was Australia responsible for PNG when they converted utility helicopters to deal with Bougainville.

People who don't take military and sometimes political advice can hardly blame the failure of considered strategic behaviour to be the responsibility of states who sold them equipment.

He made a bad strategic move - blaming others for it is atypical for those who need to defend their failure of planning.

 

[SkolZkiy]

US asured him that they will cover him from Russia =) But Russia beat him. Of course US didn't cover him because in all cases the cold war with Russia is much more better than a hot war (we still have 2000 nuclear cakes and US still don't have AMS against all this). And we all responsible for the wars which we provide - I think so.