RMAF Future; need opinions

nevidimka

New Member
its true, corruption is rampant with the gov defence purchases. the silly procurement of the Pt-91 is for every1 to see. I wonder how the Minister of defence can still be serving the gov n not tried for treason to the gov's security. Oh wait.. he is also the Deputy prime minister who is the Blue eyed boy of the BN gov.

And some1 mentioned it would be better to go straight for the Pak FA. Thats a better idea. get another squadron of the SU 30 MKM, and retire the Mig or Hornets and bolster the AF with PAK FA when they become available.
 

johngage

New Member
What should be the priority for the RMAF? In my opinion replacing the Nuri's (Sikorsky S-61A-4) should be the first step, but what about after?

What should the ideal size of the RMAF be? (taking the RMAF's limited budget under consideration). I was thinking of 3 squadrons of 18 SU-30MKM's each, 2 squadrons on Peninsular Malaysia and one in Eastern Malaysia (Borneo). Or should the RMAF's priority be AWACS and more MPA. Any thoughts?
 

ampraxius

New Member
What should be the priority for the RMAF? In my opinion replacing the Nuri's (Sikorsky S-61A-4) should be the first step, but what about after?

What should the ideal size of the RMAF be? (taking the RMAF's limited budget under consideration). I was thinking of 3 squadrons of 18 SU-30MKM's each, 2 squadrons on Peninsular Malaysia and one in Eastern Malaysia (Borneo). Or should the RMAF's priority be AWACS and more MPA. Any thoughts?
Apparently the PAK FA program is still in its infancy and probably be about ten years until production. But i guess going georgraphically i would prefer if the RMAF operates 3 squadron of su-30s, AWACS and the hornets in the peninsular while 2 squadrons of su-30s and the existing fulcrums be move to Borneo.

But this is of course pure fantasy talk, since more urgent need is needed in replacing the flying coffin aka the nuri as well as awacs in order to increase our combat readiness.
 

ampraxius

New Member
its true, corruption is rampant with the gov defence purchases. the silly procurement of the Pt-91 is for every1 to see. I wonder how the Minister of defence can still be serving the gov n not tried for treason to the gov's security. Oh wait.. he is also the Deputy prime minister who is the Blue eyed boy of the BN gov.

And some1 mentioned it would be better to go straight for the Pak FA. Thats a better idea. get another squadron of the SU 30 MKM, and retire the Mig or Hornets and bolster the AF with PAK FA when they become available.
spot on. plus i think it's his wife the one calling the shots, i mean bombs.
 

renjer

New Member
I wonder how the Minister of defence can still be serving the gov n not tried for treason to the gov's security. Oh wait.. he is also the Deputy prime minister who is the Blue eyed boy of the BN gov.
If I am not wrong the person who made the actual choice was the Prime Minister at that time (i.e. Dr Mahathir). Anyone?
 

qwerty223

New Member
Eurocopter Awarded Tender To Replace Nuri

KUALA LUMPUR, Sept 26 (Bernama) -- The Defence Ministry has agreed to acquire new helicopters from European helicopter manufacturers, Eurocopter, to replace the Nuri, Prime Minister Datuk Seri Abdullah Ahmad Badawi announced Friday.

He said the ministry was now scrutinising the clauses in the agreement before signing it officially with the company concerned.

"I have been told that the Defence Ministry has identified Eurocopter as the replacement for Nuri.

"The Defence Ministry had received many applications from international aircraft manufacturers and suppliers," Abdullah, who is also the Defence Minister, told reporters after attending a special briefing at Wisma Pertahanan, Jalan Padang Tembak, here.

On Sept 17, Abdullah handed over the post of Finance Minister to Datuk Seri Najib Tun Razak and took over the Defence Ministry. Abdullah had once held the Defence Minister's post from 1986 to 1987.

He said the selection of Eurocopter was based on the criteria stipulated by the Defence Ministry as well as the specifications of the helicopter.

"We go for the best. The selection was made without discrimination. The tender must be awarded properly," he said.

Abdullah said the time had come for the Nuri helicopters to be put out of commission as it had been used for a long time and had been involved in several fatal accidents.

Meanwhile, when asked how he felt about assuming the Defence Minister's post after 12 years, Abdullah said: "I feel good to be here again."

Asked about his priorities for the ministry, he said they included building living quarters for military officers and other ranks throughout the country.

On weaponry, he said the Defence Ministry had no problems with the existing weapon system.

"In terms of weaponry currently, there is no problem but the armaments will be upgraded according to the country's needs," Abdullah said.

In another development, he said Datuk Tiki Lafe had been appointed to succeed Tan Sri Lee Lam Thye as Chairman of the National Service Training Council.

-- BERNAMA
 

qwerty223

New Member
It seems that NTS and other copy cat from the same source was passing the wrong message. There is no exact figure as it is only a LOI to the EC. FWI reading the MoD letter to public, the sample itself is only cost half of the amount claimed by NTS.
 

nevidimka

New Member
8 AWACS!!?? LOl.. I thought even 4 was ambitious. I don't thin the number is correct. MAF wont spend huge sums to buy 8 AWACS.

on the copters, good to see a decision finally made to send the Nuri's to the graveyard. Its getting very old. The Eurocopters would make very good and modern transport available.

Regarding EADS, they have the cheek to ask clients not to exercise a clause in their contract? To think the fuss being made for the delay of Mig 29 K's for India. This debacle by EADS certainly puts dent on their image and client states trust on future projects. Perhaps MAF should exit from the deal and look elsewhere for transports. The IL -76ski would be a good candidate.
 

mantanfwi

New Member
My version of RMAF wishlist ORBAT

Wow.... I am impressed. We have so many talents in military analysis that we should be setting up a think tank or something for the Malaysian Armed Forces here.

Anyway, goes to show that given the circumstances, action speaks louder than words and as is I believe that it is not possible for us to put action to support our words as it is not within our means to influence the purchase and selection of the Malaysian defence spending.

However, having said that, here is my ideal RMAF setup (what should have been)...

1. An integrated multimission groundbased 3D surveillance radar system. I hear those ppl groaning in the background "We have those already".... I tell you its insufficient, there are still gaps in between (although i hear arguments about awacs being used as gap fillers here) and bane of the scenario is that it is not fully integrated. Numbers required?... that is something that only specialists within RMAF would need to come up with but my best guesstimate puts it at 6 radar heads in peninsular and another 6 in East Malaysia. The idea is to cover the vital points and let the 2nd layer of airdefence and the AWACS fill the gaps.

2. Multimission AEWC/ABCCC platform. How many? 6 would be good. 4 is minimum. These should be integrated with the ground based 3D surveillance platforms as well as the SAM batteries and the fighter assets.

3. Tactical SAMs. Best option for these are the Combined Units such as the SA-8 and its variants (yeah its an old system but it works...) with in depth protection by something like the S300 and above variants. Specs should cover surveillance up to at least 30 nm vs low level threats with missile engagement occuring at minimum of 20 nm. Maybe some of those SAM specialist out there can share on this a bit as my SAM knowledge is pretty grey... How many?.....depends on what you want to protect, if we want to build a wall north and south....ball park figure will be something like 6 batteries of the medium range SAMs (S-300V class) and 12 to 18 batteries of SA8 class short range SAMs to complement the myriad of Igla, Anza and Starburst VSHORAD already in service.

4. Fighter assets. Definitely something multirole, twin engined (due to the maritime expanse), long legs, AAR capable, with sensors and weapons to the hilt. My choice would be a mix of hornets and Su-30MKM. Min of 2 sqn of 12/18 hornets each (C/D upgraded to some level should be sufficient) and 2 sqn of 18 Su-30MKM each. Best advice here will be to put the F5 and Mig29 out to pasture as soon as feasible to minimize the logistic nightmare.

5. Training assets. Maintain the current basic training sets. RMAF should have gone for the Hawk 128 for their FLIT instead of going for MB339CD so as to reduce the types. That is to use the existing Hawks until end of service life (which should be in 2020 or so) and transition FLIT onto Hawk 128 by 2015 (don't buy now, LoI, negotiate price and delivery start in 2013-15 for 12 Hawk 128). So the aircrew progression will be Basic Training - Hawk - hornets/Su-30MKM.

6. Support assets. Instead of going for 4 x A400M, I would have gone for 4-6 militarised A330/340 with AAR capability. reason being its a jet ac, bigger payload (more fuel for the AAR, bigger capacity cargo and as well as troops). Not really sure whats the AAR capability for A400M but as its a prop, definitely the speed is lower than that of a jet, payload probably slightly lower and fuel offered maybe even lesser. In example, a 60000 lb offload for AAR will only refuel 4 Su-30MKM taking on 15k lb fuel each. What if the strike force require a 4+4 mix?.... Besides now the tanker can fly at about the same combat speed of the fighter, so on a long haul, the fighter can stay with the tanker all the way until punch time.

7. Helicopter. RMAF must release the role of troop support and heli lift to the army and concentrate on specialising in CSAR and Spec Ops. After all with the Eurocopter Cougar being given the LoI approval this is the most logical step as the Cougar is too small to step into heli lift and troop support.

8. UCAV. Develop own UCAV capability to act a a low cost stand in for AWACS and fighters in CAS role. If others can do it, why can't we....

9. Networked integrated system between command, control, sensors and shooters.

What a mouthful. I know a lot of flak will float my way but hey....its a wishlist right... Then again, what is the price of having the knowledge that your country have at least a fighting chance in case some nutcase decides to take your country's sovereignty away?
 

OPSSG

Super Moderator
Staff member
If you don't mind, I would like to share some of my thoughts as an outsider on what you wrote:

1. An integrated multimission groundbased 3D surveillance radar system. I hear those ppl groaning in the background "We have those already".... I tell you its insufficient, there are still gaps in between (although i hear arguments about awacs being used as gap fillers here) and bane of the scenario is that it is not fully integrated. Numbers required?... that is something that only specialists within RMAF would need to come up with but my best guesstimate puts it at 6 radar heads in peninsular and another 6 in East Malaysia. The idea is to cover the vital points and let the 2nd layer of airdefence and the AWACS fill the gaps.

2. Multimission AEWC/ABCCC platform. How many? 6 would be good. 4 is minimum. These should be integrated with the ground based 3D surveillance platforms as well as the SAM batteries and the fighter assets.

9. Networked integrated system between command, control, sensors and shooters.
1. Upgrading the groundbased 3D surveillance radar system and the acquisition of an AWAC platform is something that needs to go hand in hand. With Malaysia's large coastline, it would make sense.

(i) I am not so concerned about the number of the AWACs acquired, as they are very expensive (so 4 would be a good number to start), rather I am more concerned that Malaysia needs to acquire the ability to integrate the AWACs with Malaysia's command and control systems.

(ii) In this respect, the Thais have focused on scholarships for their defense science graduates sending them abroad for training so that they can come back to enable the system to develop to its full capacity. Likewise Singapore sent scholars abroad to learn from the US at the time of the acquisition of the E2C AWACs.

(iii) The acquisition of AWACs signifies the RMAF's coming of age as a capable air force. This maturity must be supported by mature planning and purchase decisions, such as the use of operational analysis (OA). OA is a quantitative management technique to generate detailed plans that is tied to the purchase of new systems. For more details see my comments on OA in another post.

4. Fighter assets. Definitely something multirole, twin engined (due to the maritime expanse), long legs, AAR capable, with sensors and weapons to the hilt. My choice would be a mix of hornets and Su-30MKM. Min of 2 sqn of 12/18 hornets each (C/D upgraded to some level should be sufficient) and 2 sqn of 18 Su-30MKM each. Best advice here will be to put the F5 and Mig29 out to pasture as soon as feasible to minimize the logistic nightmare.
2. I think that Malaysia really needs to choose between the F18 and the Su-30MKM platforms. It would make logistics planning much easier on the air force.

6. Support assets. Instead of going for 4 x A400M, I would have gone for 4-6 militarised A330/340 with AAR capability. reason being its a jet ac, bigger payload (more fuel for the AAR, bigger capacity cargo and as well as troops). Not really sure whats the AAR capability for A400M but as its a prop, definitely the speed is lower than that of a jet, payload probably slightly lower and fuel offered maybe even lesser. In example, a 60000 lb offload for AAR will only refuel 4 Su-30MKM taking on 15k lb fuel each. What if the strike force require a 4+4 mix?.... Besides now the tanker can fly at about the same combat speed of the fighter, so on a long haul, the fighter can stay with the tanker all the way until punch time.

7. Helicopter. RMAF must release the role of troop support and heli lift to the army and concentrate on specialising in CSAR and Spec Ops. After all with the Eurocopter Cougar being given the LoI approval this is the most logical step as the Cougar is too small to step into heli lift and troop support.
3. I think that the A400M and Eurocopter Cougar are good choices.

There is no need to panic about the delays with the A400M:

(i) as it would mean the manufacturer would have to compensate the buyer (hopefully cheaper planes for Malaysia);

(ii) I would like to note that in terms of pure speed all mid air refueling tankers cannot keep up with fighters. The tankers would give the RMAF aircraft more time on station (for both offensive and defensive counter air sorties). As the RMAF matures and uses AWACs, time on station for fighters become more important; and

(iii) the A400M specifications are excellent and more capable than C130s so it upgrades Malaysia's military lift and mid air refueling capacity.

Other than news reports on the corruption issues (and the posts by other forum members here), the Eurocopter Cougar is very reliable.
 
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sunshin3

New Member
Like qwerty223 mentioned in an earlier post, IMHO, i would choose the Su-30 MKM over the F-18 anytime for the following reasons:

  • The Su-27 Flanker (upon which the Su-30 MKM design is based on) was specifically designed in the 1980s to counter the American F-15. The Su-30 MKM, with its improved avionics and thrust-vectoring engines, is an excellent multi-role fighter.

  • In many ways, the Su-30 MKM is like the Indian Su-30, which is a 2-seater multi-role aircraft with inflight refilling, 12 stores attachments and the capability of carrying the latest Russian AAMs and smart weapons.

  • The avionics is linked together with considerable processing power using a digital databus scheme, with the aircraft's fire-control system integrating the radar, optical sensor system, helmet-mounted sight, and IFF. The Indian Su-30 also has slightly increased internal fuel tankage, as well as stronger landing gear and airframe reinforcement to handle increased takeoff weight.

As Nevidimka mentioned in an earlier post, the Su-30s are apparently outgunning American F-16s. USAF pilots in F-15Cs have also took on Indian Air Force Su-30s in cooperative training exercises in early 2004. Although the two aircraft detected each other at about the same range and time, the IAF pilots were quicker on the draw with their AA-10 Alamo AAMs and got an edge in simulated "kills". This may have been due simply to superior training, as it turned out the IAF pilots got about 300 hours of flight time per year compared to 250 for their USAF adversaries.

From my point of view, the Su-30 MKM is a better value for money.

I wonder what other forum members think.
 

OPSSG

Super Moderator
Staff member
For comparisons between F15s/F16s vs the Su-30 MKM during the Indian and US air exercises, we need to be very careful. Please read the post by gf0012-aust on Dissimilar Air Combat Training (DACT) on the dangers of such comparisons, especially with regards to the Rules Of Engagement (ROE) used. These ROEs may distort the results of such comparisons. This post suggest that the results of these exercises (especially those released to the public) are quite likely not accurate. And, for one side or the other to claim victory in one of these exercises is either dishonest or just plain ignorance.

Your position is not very different to ELP in this thread who also supports the Su purchase.

I would like Malaysian DT forum members to take note of problems the Indonesians are having in keeping their Su-30 flying.

The most interesting position taken is by Subangite, where he suggests that Malaysia should consider 2nd hand Hornets rather than Super Hornets. I know that must people in military forums will not support such a position but I think its the most novel solution proposed in terms of the trade off between cost savings, capability and ease of maintenance.

Without a background in the air force, I do not feel I can make an informed comment on which air craft is a superior choice for Malaysia. I have a background in the army. In another thread, I have given reasons why I supported Malaysia's choice of PT-91M as a MBT.
 
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sunshin3

New Member
Thanks, I've just read the thread on DACT. Will be more cautious when reviewing such comments/articles on air exercises.
 
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