Russia-Georgia Conflict: News From the War zone

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Feanor

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Sorry for double post but it looks like the story is changing. Interviews with Russian soldiers revealed that the 135th Motor-Rifles Regiment of the 58th Army was most likely already in S. Ossetia when the conflict began on earnest on Aug. 8th, having entered there on Aug. 7th. However it seems that the real fighting started earlier. On the night of August 1-2 Ossetians intercepted Georgian orders to open fire on Ts'hinvali with artillery. By august 4th Georgians had already lost, allegedly, a BMP ~30 soldiers, and a truck to Ossetian fire.

Finally the USA has now firmly placed the blame on starting the conflict on Georgia.

http://newsru.com/russia/11sep2008/voshli.html
 

nevidimka

New Member
If only I can read Russian. LOL!.

anyways.. in light of the the Georgian conflict, Medvedev vows to modernise Russian Armed Forces. This will make the Army more modern and effective forces compared to the somewhat poorly equipped? army that moved into Georgia.

http://en.rian.ru/russia/20080911/116718040.html

And the Army beigns to adopt more regular use of UAV's for use on battlefield. I believe this is also as a result of the Georgian conflict.

http://en.rian.ru/russia/20080910/116692635.html
 

DMG

New Member
I apologise if this has already been discussed, but can someone provide accurate figures for the number and type of military ships or subs that Russia vs NATO have stationed in the Black Sea? How would a hypothetical military confrontation there unfold? Who enjoys military superiority there and why?
 

DMG

New Member
An interesting article...

Toy Armies or Accomodation?
The Baltic States and Russia
By WILLIAM S. LIND

I recently returned from Estonia and the Baltic Defence College, where the Russian counter-attack on Georgia had left a residual case of nerves. They have little to fear in the short run, unless they duplicate Georgia’s folly and attack Russia. But the question of how the Baltics might be defended is worth considering, both in itself and in terms of what it means for defending other small countries.

The worst option, which Georgia took, is to create a toy army. A handful of modern jet fighters, a battalion or two of tanks, a frigate for the navy, all add up to nothing. Against a Great Power, a toy army goes down to defeat in days if not hours. More, even a few modern jet fighters or tanks cost so much there is no money left for a real defense. Unless the Baltic states want to fight each other, they should leave military toys to children.

Second, the Baltics could try to ally with other near-by Powers strong enough to balance Russia. But this option exists only in theory. Germany could fill the role but has lost all Great Power ambitions, while Sweden has been out the game for two centuries. There could be benefit for all concerned in a union of the Baltic states and Finland under the Swedish crown, all retaining complete domestic autonomy but united for defense and foreign policy, but it is probably only historians who can see the potential.

A third option is to ally with distant Great Powers in order to balance the threat from a local Great Power. That is what the Baltic States have done through their membership in NATO. Unfortunately, while central European states have attempted this over and over again for centuries, it never works. It may involve Western Powers in war with Russia, or in the past with Germany, but it does nothing to protect the country in question. Poland is a recent example: Britain and France went to war with Germany in 1939 over Poland, but Poland remained an occupied country for 50 years.

NATO membership also increases the pressure to build a toy army, or to specialize in “niche” capabilities like water purification that serve NATO but not home defense. Both are roads to military irrelevance.

There is a model that would work for the Baltic states and other small countries: the Iraqi model. Instead of creating a toy army, they should plan an Iraq-style insurgency against any occupier. This requires a universal militia like Switzerland’s, where every male citizen knows how to shoot and how to build and emplace IEDs and where weapons and explosives are cached all over the country. In the Baltics, this would be a rural rather than an urban defense: Russia could take the cities but not the countryside. The “Forest Brothers” kept up just such a resistance to the Soviet presence well into the 1950s.

An Iraqi-model defense would not make it impossible for Russia to conquer the Baltic states. It could only make such a venture expensive for Russia, hopefully too expensive.

For long-term security, the Baltic states must approach the problem not just at the military but at the grand strategic level. What that means is that, like all small countries bordering Great Powers, they must accommodate the Great Power’s interests. The model here is Finland during the Cold War. Finland maintained complete sovereignty in her domestic affairs, but she was careful to accommodate the Soviet Union in her foreign and defense policies. She was a good neighbor to Russia, as the Baltic states should strive to be good neighbors to Russia now. Their goal should be to create a situation where it is more in Russia’s interests for the Baltics to remain independent than to reincorporate them into the Russian empire.

I realize this advice is unpalatable to the Baltic peoples. Half a century of Soviet occupation has left a residue of hatred for all things Russian. But grand strategy must be based on facts and reason, not emotion. The most important fact is geography. Geography dictates that the Baltic states must accommodate Russian interests, whether they want to or not. If they refuse, then the recent example of Georgia may have more relevance than anyone would wish.

William S. Lind, expressing his own personal opinion, is Director for the Center for Cultural Conservatism for the Free Congress Foundation.
 

Grand Danois

Entertainer
So far, no NATO state has been attacked by Russia. Russia/USSR has only attacked states in its defined sphere of influence. Finland (1939), Poland (1939), Lithuania (1939), Estonia (1939), Latvia (1939), Hungary (1956), Czechoslovakia (1968), Afghanistan (1978)...

Bowing down is no guarantee.
 

DMG

New Member
What I found most interesting in this article was not the advice that neighbouring countries should somehow accomodate Russian interests, but rather the defense strategy proposed for the Baltic states.

Could an Iraqi style insurgency defense work for these small countries? Would it be more effective than Georgia? Would it buy enough time for NATO to mobilise and intervene?
 

Grand Danois

Entertainer
What I found most interesting in this article was not the advice that neighbouring countries should somehow accomodate Russian interests, but rather the defense strategy proposed for the Baltic states.

Could an Iraqi style insurgency defense work for these small countries? Would it be more effective than Georgia? Would it buy enough time for NATO to mobilise and intervene?
Actually this style of "deep" guerilla tactics have been discussed at Baltic Defence College since 2001. Read a paper on it the other day (on the internet, but can't remember the key words to Google it up :p).

My take is that it should aim to keep the conflict hot long enough for NATO to mobilize politically, i.e. the longer the Baltic states fights, the greater the chance that NATO will enter the conflict full-on.
 

Firehorse

Banned Member
Russia warns Ukraine it will retaliate over Nato
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...raine-it-will-retaliate-over-nato-925587.html

Money and political hardles aside, how long would it have taken for Ukraine to get nukes? IMO, Western Ukraine should join Poland, Eastern & Southern join Russia, and than everyone is happy!

South Ossetia says finds 500 of 1,600 civilian dead
http://www.reuters.com/article/worldNews/idUSL953954020080909

"By whom and with what the Georgian military was helped to prepare her invasion"
http://nvo.ng.ru/forces/2008-09-12/1_invasion.html?mthree=3

Weakness of the BSF vs. NATO ships in the Balck Sea
http://nvo.ng.ru/wars/2008-09-05/1_blacksea.html

But the article didn't mention the Caspian Flotilla boats that can reinforce it. Also, Ukrainian ships and airbases with their fughters could be captured and used against NATO in the event of a war in the Black Sea.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukrainian_Navy#Major_Ships_and_Vessels

BTW, what's up with that unfinished Ukraina, Slava class CG?

Ukrainian spin-
http://www.ukraine-observer.com/articles/196/395
 
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eaf-f16

New Member
One thing I think Western analysts should understand when they propose that countries like Georgia should turn their armies/male population into Islamic-style guerrilla groups is that these groups/countries were at a huge disadvantage with no way in Hell of deterring their enemies in the conventional sense.

Militant groups in Muslim countries (excluding AQ and co.) don't just start insurgencies and wars for kicks and giggles. The Iraqi insurgency started because the Iraqi Army failed to do its job of defending the nation and average Iraqi males had to defend their country, Hezbollah's war with Israel in 2006 was because of major miscalculation on Hezbollah's part, and the Chechens were fighting for what they saw as the independence/liberation of their country.

They wouldn't tolerate such massive loses as seen in Iraq, Chechnya and Lebanon if they didn't feel fighting was vital to securing their future survival, independence, liberty, etc.

I doubt Georgians care that much about S.Ossetia and Abkhazia.

Membership in NATO is like a life-long guarantee of peace (assuming that you don't attack anyone). Hence, there is no reason for the states mentioned in the article to ever think about starting Iraqi-style "guerrilla armies". If Georgia is lucky enough to get membership, then there is no reason for them to even put the (very stupid) thought of guerrilla warfare in their heads (again, assuming they don't attack anyone).

Then there is the question of bravery and resilience.

Russia is not the US or Israel (whom are scrutinized by human rights group). If causalities become unacceptable (and when you are talking about Russia, that is quite a high number of casualties) then it will do what it did to Chechnya.

I don't understand why the author of the article thinks this would be a better alternative to NATO membership.
 

Feanor

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In regards to UAV usage, this year Russia is taking it's first delivery of the Tipchak recon UAV meant for artillery units.

As for Ukraine, the Yuschenko government is in his death throes from the looks of it. The orange coalition is dead, and Timoshenko is openly talking of becoming the next Ukrainian president, with a pro-Russian position.
 

swerve

Super Moderator
As for Ukraine, the Yuschenko government is in his death throes from the looks of it. The orange coalition is dead, and Timoshenko is openly talking of becoming the next Ukrainian president, with a pro-Russian position.
Translation: a pro-Timoshenko position. :D
 

ROCK45

New Member
Insurgencies

eaf-f16
Militant groups in Muslim countries (excluding AQ and co.) don't just start insurgencies and wars for kicks and giggles. The Iraqi insurgency started because the Iraqi Army failed to do its job of defending the nation and average Iraqi males had to defend their country,
What would any "Muslim militant groups" have to do with any real Muslim government run country in the first place. These are mainly outsiders fighting for themselves and for their own cause and could care less about the people or what left of the current government, that shows in the high number of internal killings. Its about inserting there will or what they want over people who can do a little about it themselves.

I hope this isn't the case in Georgia
 
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Feanor

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Translation: a pro-Timoshenko position. :D
Point tank. :) Basically the conclusion she drew from the conflict in Georgia is that in the near future Russia will be in charge in the post-Soviet sphere.
 

Chrom

New Member
Russia is not the US or Israel (whom are scrutinized by human rights group). If causalities become unacceptable (and when you are talking about Russia, that is quite a high number of casualties) then it will do what it did to Chechnya.
Dont let yourself be blinded by Western propaganda. What Russia did in Chechnya was of course bad. But no worse than what US did in Iraq or Afghanistan. The same huge causalities between civilians, the same humanitarian catastrophe, the same indiscriminate use of heavy weapons.

The Georgia was another example - what Russia can do very precise and very limited strike against enemy military, with very few causalities between civilians.

Russia, regarding human rights group, is in worse position than "big" Western powers like US or GB. Because for USA, it is only human rights groups itself which give problems - and btw, most of them are partially financed by US government or government-affiliated sources, and all of them are literally full of US government "influence" agents.

For Russia (and other not US friendly stated) , these groups are just excuse for full diplomatic pressure from whole West. Just compare the weight of the 2 examples. Anemic HR groups alone, which act against they authorities, or HR groups with all support of Western diplomatic, intelligence, financial support. Big difference, very often not understood by Western residents.
 
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eckherl

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Palin says the US might have to go to war with Russia to defend Georgia.

http://www.drudge.com/news/112255/palin-us-might-go-war-russia

The world will be a much better place to live if we have more of Bush's, McCain's and Palin's.
It kinda sucks doesn`t it that you have some leaders and future leaders out there that are willing to give Russia a tough go of it and have the muscle to back it up, Russia is no different than the U.S when it comes to doing what it takes to achieving their goals while the rest of the world will either take sides or enter into a hollow chest thumping session, you can rest assured that we will not risk a major war for the sake of Georgia or Ukraine for that matter, neither will have the chance to enter NATO.
 
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