Will latest F-35 problems push Norway towards a European solution?

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Grand Danois

Entertainer
You don't have to wait for missile terminal phase to put the mountain between you and the missile, do you? I did say early enough, didn't I? I may have made a mistake if I didnt.

cheers

guppy
Nope, but the CAP will know where to look for you. ;) Just as exposure to trashfire becomes an issue.

Anyway, what has this to do with future lethality of missiles - obviously the above discussion referred to when a track had been acquired; could you then evade the missile?
 

energo

Member
A thought occured to me: presumably the 12g is with a clean a/c. As Ozzy Blizzard pointed if this is the case then 12g is not possible with some payload. However perhaps you can then get closer to what Energo said F22 and F-35 can do, which is 9g which a full load. So the whole idea would not be to be able to do 12g but rather dimension the a/c in a manner that makes it possible to pull more than 4-5 g when fully loaded. Or am I being silly again?
As far as I know the normal operational load limit imposed by the flight control system (FCS) of the Eurofighter is 9g. However fighters are typically designed with around a 50% safety margin, meaning it might be able to pull 14g's before you have a structural failure and maybe about 11 or 12g's before you loose structural integrity and must head straight for the depot upon landing -- if it ever flies again. Some fighters have an "override" switch or mode in their FCS to allow for a higher g-limit in emergency situations. Deltawing fighters are generally tougher than high aspect winged birds in this sense.

With external stores most fighters are typically limited to 5-7g's depending on ordnance type, their status and position. I don't have exact figures for the Eurofighter, but with respect to droptanks, for the F-16 it's something like 5.5g for a full 370 gal underwing droptank and 6.5g for an empty one. The smaller 300 gal centerline is around 7g full and 8g empty if my memory serves me right.

With age, however, fighters are regularly subject to stricter operational limitations on their flight envelope and g-limits. A 9g fighter at birth may only be allowed to pull 9g under certain conditions when it's logged a fair number of flight hours.


Regards,
B. Bolsøy
Oslo
 
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gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
The faster an object flies the more G's it needs to pull to maintain the same turning circle.

If you calculate the turning circle of a platform pulling 12G at Mach 0.5 and a missile pulling 30G at Mach 3 then you will be extremely surprised.

In fact the turn rate/turning circle of the fighter will be more than double that of the missile :)

Though if the missile can perform 65G and the aircraft only 9G then the missile wins.
??? read the response again.

an aircraft cannot pull 30g let alone 65g. Its frame overstress alert will start singing at 7g. if the planes pilot overrides or allows the software to initiate an overcorrection to the frame stress alert then he'll be asleep at the wheel for a moment in time. going to sleep when a missile is heading for your freckle is not exactly an ideal solution.

the further out the pilot commits to E&E the less dramatic the manouvre the missile needs to correct and lock. it's a choice of timing. the timing option is also running out as the US has been playing with multi-seeker missiles for a number of years.

if you're in the NEZ and the Ki is right - you're not going to be a pilot for much longer.

The plane cannot out-G the missile. 9g-12g to 65g? Esp when then there are no inservice G suits that will keep the pilot coherent at sustained 10g+.

fact trumps theory every time.
 

Scorpion82

New Member
??? read the response again.

an aircraft cannot pull 30g let alone 65g. Its frame overstress alert will start singing at 7g. if the planes pilot overrides or allows the software to initiate an overcorrection to the frame stress alert then he'll be asleep at the wheel for a moment in time. going to sleep when a missile is heading for your freckle is not exactly an ideal solution.

the further out the pilot commits to E&E the less dramatic the manouvre the missile needs to correct and lock. it's a choice of timing. the timing option is also running out as the US has been playing with multi-seeker missiles for a number of years.

if you're in the NEZ and the Ki is right - you're not going to be a pilot for much longer.

The plane cannot out-G the missile. 9g-12g to 65g? Esp when then there are no inservice G suits that will keep the pilot coherent at sustained 10g+.

fact trumps theory every time.
No one said an aircraft can pull 30 or 65 g, but the missile. The point is right however g is not automatically indicative turning radius. As rjamz said a missile flying at mach 3+ needs much much more gs than a fighter flying subsonic for example. There are still opportunities to outmaneuver such a missile, though it is extremly difficult nowadays and probably only successful in combination with CM. Well sustained 9 g might be already enough if the maneuver is timed well. A BVR missile is hardly pulling 50 gs or so, but 20-30 at best. You have also to consider that in the endgame the missile's maneuverability can easily shrink as there as no energy left anymore. A Luftwaffe pilot sustained 9 g for 86 seconds with the Libelle flying suit which is used by the Luftwaffe and Bundesheer with their Eurofighters.
 

Grand Danois

Entertainer
LOL! The missile doesn't have to match the turning radius of the jet trying to evade. :D A BVR missile (and other missiles) doesn't follow the flight path of the missile - thus the initial conditions are not the same. Geometry.

Actually, since all the missile needs is an intercept path, it will never be put in a position where it has to match the turning radius (or angular velocity) of its target.
 

Scorpion82

New Member
LOL! The missile doesn't have to match the turning radius of the jet trying to evade. :D A BVR missile (and other missiles) doesn't follow the flight path of the missile - thus the initial conditions are not the same. Geometry.

Actually, since all the missile needs is an intercept path, it will never be put in a position where it has to match the turning radius (or angular velocity) of its target.
But the missile isn't able to predict exactly how the target will behave. A last ditch evasive maneuver can still be effective. The intercept path is calculated during the approaching phase and contineously updated. If the pilot trys to keep the missle in a 45° angle from its boresight position and suddenly breaks into the opposite direction a fast approaching missile might not be able to turn tight enough to compensate for that and can miss. Of course this requires accurate timing but it is possible, even more so with advanced MAWS which might provide the pilot with the required data.
 

Grand Danois

Entertainer
But the missile isn't able to predict exactly how the target will behave. A last ditch evasive maneuver can still be effective. The intercept path is calculated during the approaching phase and contineously updated. If the pilot trys to keep the missle in a 45° angle from its boresight position and suddenly breaks into the opposite direction a fast approaching missile might not be able to turn tight enough to compensate for that and can miss. Of course this requires accurate timing but it is possible, even more so with advanced MAWS which might provide the pilot with the required data.
There are so many things to take into account... But in purely mathematical terms the missile will never have to match the turning radius of the target, actually the further away the missile is launched, the less it has to match the targets turning radius. Because it has distance to compensate with. This equation doesn't change with the target maneuvering at a distance. It could be possible, but it requires sooper-dooper awareness and timing of the pilot, if possible...
 

otester

New Member
There are so many things to take into account... But in purely mathematical terms the missile will never have to match the turning radius of the target, actually the further away the missile is launched, the less it has to match the targets turning radius. Because it has distance to compensate with. This equation doesn't change with the target maneuvering at a distance. It could be possible, but it requires sooper-dooper awareness and timing of the pilot, if possible...
If you gave me a an RWS better than Russian one then I reckon I could do it (against an AIM-120).
 

Grand Danois

Entertainer
I guess that settles it. ;)
Just as addendum, or rather, I'm thinking it over, in a head-on shot, if the target turns 90 deg, it will have a much higher "virtual angular velocity" compared to a chase shot as seen from the missile, so in this case maybe it could happen that it could beat the missile.
 

rjmaz1

New Member
Actually, since all the missile needs is an intercept path, it will never be put in a position where it has to match the turning radius (or angular velocity) of its target.
Im just stating that the turn rate/circle of the aircraft exceeds most missiles. gf0012-aust stated the opposite which is not true.

Purely theoretical but if an aircraft was flying in 8G tight complete circle the intercept course would be constantly changing in a rather large volume of airspace in the shape of an egg. As the missile gets closer the size of the egg gets smaller. The size of the egg (intercept course) and distance to the target will stay a constant relationship. The Missile would be flying an S path to the target pulling high G if it was getting constant realtime intercept course updates. The missiles range would be significantly reduced if this was the case.

This does not take into account a proximity fuse which will detonate even if the missile doesn't hit the target.

This also doesn't take into account that the recent enemy just keeps flying in a straight line until the missiles hit, completely unaware.

Just as addendum, or rather, I'm thinking it over, in a head-on shot, if the target turns 90 deg, it will have a much higher "virtual angular velocity" compared to a chase shot as seen from the missile, so in this case maybe it could happen that it could beat the missile.
Yep the missile has no chance of hitting the aircraft unless it matches the turning circle/rate of the fighter in such a case.

Such an example would reflect a beyond visual ranged engagements with an advanced enemy. Interesting enough the pilot would see the missile coming and would be able to perform such a 90 degree turn and this is exactly what the pilots are told to do.
 

Grand Danois

Entertainer
Im just stating that the turn rate/circle of the aircraft exceeds most missiles. gf0012-aust stated the opposite which is not true.

Purely theoretical but if an aircraft was flying in 8G tight complete circle the intercept course would be constantly changing in a rather large volume of airspace in the shape of an egg. As the missile gets closer the size of the egg gets smaller. The size of the egg (intercept course) and distance to the target will stay a constant relationship. The Missile would be flying an S path to the target pulling high G if it was getting constant realtime intercept course updates. The missiles range would be significantly reduced if this was the case.
Err no. Relatively the missile could be pulling higher g's, depending on range, but the turning radius would be less than that of the fighter.

And as I read what GF wrote, I believe he an I are in agreement. The turning radius of the curves in the "S" is much less than that of the fighter doing the circle.

This does not take into account a proximity fuse which will detonate even if the missile doesn't hit the target.

This also doesn't take into account that the recent enemy just keeps flying in a straight line until the missiles hit, completely unaware.
Perhaps an expression of that it is first when the missile locks on that the fighter realise it is being attacked - ie it has 5-6 seconds.

Yep the missile has no chance of hitting the aircraft unless it matches the turning circle/rate of the fighter in such a case.
Uhm no. Geometry dependent.

Such an example would reflect a beyond visual ranged engagements with an advanced enemy. Interesting enough the pilot would see the missile coming and would be able to perform such a 90 degree turn and this is exactly what the pilots are told to do.
Mkay...
 

rjmaz1

New Member
Err no. Relatively the missile could be pulling higher g's, depending on range, but the turning radius would be less than that of the fighter....

The turning radius of the curves in the "S" is much less than that of the fighter doing the circle.
No, if the missile was targetting the aircraft's position itself as an intercept point then its turning radius of the "S" would be lower. However the intercept course would always be well in front of the aircraft. So as the aircraft performs the tight circle the intercept point would require the missile to perform S turns with a turn rate similar to the fighter. As the intercept point circle would be many times bigger than the aircrafts turning circle requiring the missile to perform high G.

As the missile gets closer the intercept point gets closer to the front of the fighter. Constant relationship.

The only reason i mentioned the aircraft turning in a circle is because you insisted that the missile uses intercept points and does not aim for the fighters current position in a tail chase. Such an example using intercept points shows that the missile will still perform very high G.

You have now changed your argument back to a non intercept course aiming at the fighters current position so that the S turns are not as severe.
 

Grand Danois

Entertainer
No, if the missile was targetting the aircraft's position itself as an intercept point then its turning radius of the "S" would be lower. However the intercept course would always be well in front of the aircraft. So as the aircraft performs the tight circle the intercept point would require the missile to perform S turns with a turn rate similar to the fighter.

As the missile gets closer the intercept point gets closer to the front of the fighter. Constant relationship.

The only reason i mentioned the aircraft turning in a circle is because you insisted that the missile uses intercept points and does not aim for the fighters current position in a tail chase. Such an example using intercept points shows that the missile will perform very high G. As the intercept point circle would be many times bigger than the aircrafts turning circle requiring the missile to perform high G.

You have now changed your argument back to a non intercept course aiming at the fighters current position so that the S turns are not as severe.
Nope. I do accept your point wrt to intercept point - it is just that the impact of this is less than the impact range (travelled distance) has on the turning radii of the S curves.
 
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JohanGrön

New Member
Bf-1

Slightly OT perhaps but does anyone know if BF-1 have made it's 10th flight recently?

The planned 10th flight of BF-1, the first F-35B, is expected to take place Aug. 20 or shortly after, according to Tom Burbage, Lockheed executive vice president and general manager of F-35 program integration. “We will open the nozzle doors and other STOVL propulsion system doors in flight,” he said.
link


Cheers
 
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energo

Member
In short: The F-35 is no slow, cumbersome, wallowing with fuel, sluggish jet; it is a fast jet under actual operational conditions, with plenty of agility and with stealth on top of all this.

In short, the second most lethal fighter in the A2A role. cheers
I've had conversations with several former F-16 pilots with very good knowledge of the F-35 who basically say the same thing with respect to agility and performance: compared to the F-16 the F-35 performs a little worse in some areas and and a little better in others.

Regards,
B. Bolsøy
Oslo
 

Ozzy Blizzard

New Member
Im just stating that the turn rate/circle of the aircraft exceeds most missiles. gf0012-aust stated the opposite which is not true.
Your right G ratings alone are not indicative of turning capability. However i don't think thats what GF said. As has been pointed out the missile does not have to match the fighters turning radius in real terms, it just has to maintain the intercept track, which over a large distance means relatively small turns. Therefore a 50+G rated missile will still most likely make the intercept track even if you can pull 12G's and have a much tighter turning radius. Individual turning radius is not the comparison that matters.

Purely theoretical but if an aircraft was flying in 8G tight complete circle the intercept course would be constantly changing in a rather large volume of airspace in the shape of an egg. As the missile gets closer the size of the egg gets smaller. The size of the egg (intercept course) and distance to the target will stay a constant relationship. The Missile would be flying an S path to the target pulling high G if it was getting constant realtime intercept course updates. The missiles range would be significantly reduced if this was the case.
Depending on the size of the "egg", the initial track adjustments would be minor, and untill the fight got terminal the missile would probably not need to pull many g's. In any case the next gen AAM's are smarter, the D may be able to predict your likely course of action if you were just flying around in circles.

A better idea would be to put the intercept point in a vastly different position to what it was when the missile was launched. If take the same scenario, you get tracked and the bad guy launches at 50+NM. When the missile launches you'll be heading off on a bearing at probably M.08, the missile will calculate the point were it will be in the same piece of sky as you in the future. Depending on the range this is likely to be dozens of km's in front of you. If you turn back on your original track or put the incoming on your wingtip and hit the burner, you're now heading in the exact opposite direction at M1.5. That intercept point is now dozens of KM in the other direction. If its getting updates the missile will have to pull tighter to make the new intercept track i.e. it will all ways have to lead you. If it isn't being updated then you are either going to be out of or at the outer edge of the missiles acquisition basket, then the PK is gonna be low. Obviously the closer the missile gets the more G's it will have to pull. You do this a few times and pretty soon that missile will have spend a heap of energy trying to make the varied and widely spaced intercept points. The critical point is putting the new intercept point in as far away as possible from the last one. Thats bleeding the missile, and thats why the F-22A will be so hard actually hit with a missile.

If you are flying around in a relatively small circle, the various intercept points will be in a small piece of sky, therefore the missile wont have to expend as much energy maintaining the track. SO when it does have to make some high G's in the terminal phase, its probably still got most of its energy in the bag. If thats the case and you're still flying around in circles then you better hope your EWSP suite can do wonders, or you're toast.

This does not take into account a proximity fuse which will detonate even if the missile doesn't hit the target.
The lethal range for a missiles warhead is 10m AFAIK. That means you have to put a missile in a sphere with a diameter of 20m thats moving at supersonic speeds at a range of 100km+. Talk about threading the needle, you might as well have hit it.

This also doesn't take into account that the recent enemy just keeps flying in a straight line until the missiles hit, completely unaware.
Recent enemy haven't exactly been up to scratch now have they?

Yep the missile has no chance of hitting the aircraft unless it matches the turning circle/rate of the fighter in such a case.
It wouldn't have to match the turning radius of the fighter meter for meter. The tyranny of distance is in the missiles favor here, the later the turn the better. But still even if the pilot put 9G's on the aircraft and turned through 90 degree's unless the missile was at a comparable range to the aircraft at the initiation of the turn. Any more and the distance would mean the missile has to turn fewer degree's than the aircraft to make the track. I'm not buying it.

Such an example would reflect a beyond visual ranged engagements with an advanced enemy. Interesting enough the pilot would see the missile coming and would be able to perform such a 90 degree turn and this is exactly what the pilots are told to do.
They are told to do this because of the effect it has on the kinematic performance of this missile at long range. IF you are going to try to time a last ditch turn to try and throw the missile you're dicing with death. Can you imagine trying to time that? Better to put the missile on your wingtip, hit burner and throw out a TRD if you have one. You'd probably reduce the PK more.
 

Scorpion82

New Member
@gf, ozzy, grand,
I think what you partitially misunderstand is that its not meant that the missile has to match the fighters turning performance all over the time. As you guys said if the missile is many km away such maneuvers by the fighter would reduce the missiles range at best, but in such a scenario it would be better to turn the back and run away, though that requires that you aren't in the NEZ. What I speak about is a last ditch maneuver to avoid the incoming missile a hard pull in the opposite direction might be to tight for a missile to adjust the course and hit the target. BTW which BVR missile pulls 50+ gs?
 
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