The Arjun Tank

[niteshkjain]

This is good news

http://howrah.org/india_news/24960.html

Russia agrees to transfer key technology for T-90 tanks

After months of acrimony, Russia has finally agreed to transfer key technology for the frontline T-90 tanks enabling Indian armament factories to now go ahead full steam to produce these weapon platforms indigenously.

"Russians have finally agreed to supply specifications of the T-90 tank barrels by end of this year," a top Defence ministry official said here today after the two-day long intensive deliberations between the two countries.

The delay in providing the specifications had held up the indigenous production of the T-90 tanks at the Avadi Heavy Vehicles Factory.

India and Russia have signed agreements for delivery of almost 1,200 T-90 tanks at a cost of a staggering $ 1.2 billion.

The deal, concluded in three tranches over the past five years, also specifies transfer of technology for production of another 1,000 to 1,500 tanks in India.

At the 8th meeting of the Indo-Russian working group on shipbuilding, aviation and land systems, Moscow also agreed to full product support for indigenous production of these tanks.

"The Russian side have agreed that the delivery schedule mutually accepted by the two countries in June this year would be maintained," the official said.

With this crucial agreement, it has become apparent that the Indian army would continue to rely on the Russian tanks as its main battle tanks. This is significant as the indigenous Arjun tanks have yet to pass the crucial induction trials.

 

[niteshkjain]

Same as above but it says something more, seems more or less arjun project is dead

http://www.zeenews.com/articles.asp?aid=463167&sid=NAT
Russia agrees to transfer key technology for T-90 tanks

New Delhi, Aug 19: After months of acrimony, Russia has finally agreed to transfer key technology for the frontline T-90 tanks enabling Indian armament factories to now go ahead full steam to produce these weapon platforms indigenously.

"Russians have finally agreed to supply specifications of the T-90 tank barrels by end of this year," a top Defence ministry official said here today after the two-day long intensive deliberations between the two countries.

The delay in providing the specifications had held up the indigenous production of the T-90 tanks at the Avadi Heavy Vehicles Factory.

India and Russia have signed agreements for delivery of almost 1,200 T-90 tanks at a cost of a staggering US 1.2 billion dollars.

The deal, concluded in three tranches over the past five years, also specifies transfer of technology for production of another 1,000 to 1,500 tanks in India.

At the 8th meeting of the Indo-Russian working group on shipbuilding, aviation and land systems, Moscow also agreed to full product support for indigenous production of these tanks.

"The Russian side have agreed that the delivery schedule mutually accepted by the two countries in June this year would be maintained," the official said.

With this crucial agreement, it has become apparent that the Indian army would continue to rely on the Russian tanks as its main battle tanks. This is significant as the indigenous Arjun tanks have yet to pass the crucial induction trials.

Though the Ordnance Factories Board had concluded the technology transfer agreement with Russia way back in 2001, Moscow's reluctance to part with key barrel specifications had held up the indigenous production of the tanks.

At the meeting co-chaired by Ajay Acharya, Additional Secretary, Defence Production, and his Russian counterpart Karavaev Igor Evgeniyevich, New Delhi also submitted its technical requirements for the joint development of a futuristic 5th generation fighter aircraft.

Though the aircraft design is yet to be finalised, the two countries have agreed to step up efforts to ensure that the new fighter enters flying service by 2015.

The key working group met within the framework of the Indo-Russian intergovernmental commission military technical cooperation and also took up issues for supply of Russian sub-systems for India's new range of P-17A warships.

"The talks were held in a highly professional manner. Sides expressed their readiness to take all the necessary measures to further develop cooperation on a mutually beneficial basis," Defence Ministry spokesman Sitanshu Kar said.

Russia has also agreed to open cooperation with the bluechip public sector undertaking Hindustan Aeronautics Limited as an offset partner for future programmes.

Bureau Report

 

[Feanor]

So we have a total of 1200 delivered from Russia? Is this a new contract? Because the two original deals were for ~650 total + 1000 to be produced under license.

 

[kams]

So we have a total of 1200 delivered from Russia? Is this a new contract? Because the two original deals were for ~650 total + 1000 to be produced under license.

AFAIK the second order of 350+ tanks was due to delay in ToT for 1000 tanks. So I think total number of T90's will remain same as before, India will produce 350 less.

 

[DavidDCM]

I don't get it, too.
India has made two orders for the T-90S. First was 310 tanks (ordered in 2001, all delivered by now), the second was 347 ordered last year. Those are 657 tanks ordered (and not, as the above articles say, 1,200). All of them are completely or partially made in Russia.

To this shall come 1,000 tanks fully made in India. Adding up to a complete number of 1,657 T-90S in the end.

That was what I had heard and read before from several sources.

These articles above now sound as if India has already ordered 1,200 tanks and wants to produce another 1,000 to 1,500! This would make a total number of 2,200 to 2,700 tanks! That's way more than everything I've heard before. Can anybody explain? Are those numbers wrong, messed up by uninformed journalists? Or has India signed some contracts in the last few months which slipped my attention?

 

[kams]

I don't get it, too.
India has made two orders for the T-90S. First was 310 tanks (ordered in 2001, all delivered by now), the second was 347 ordered last year. Those are 657 tanks ordered (and not, as the above articles say, 1,200). All of them are completely or partially made in Russia.

To this shall come 1,000 tanks fully made in India. Adding up to a complete number of 1,657 T-90S in the end.

That was what I had heard and read before from several sources.

These articles above now sound as if India has already ordered 1,200 tanks and wants to produce another 1,000 to 1,500! This would make a total number of 2,200 to 2,700 tanks! That's way more than everything I've heard before. Can anybody explain? Are those numbers wrong, messed up by uninformed journalists? Or has India signed some contracts in the last few months which slipped my attention?

Nope, original deal - 310 outright purchase + 1000 license production= 1310.

Second deal of 347 was a gap filler as license production didn't start.

Now that the license production issue is resolved, India will produce 1000-347 = 653 T90s

 

[Feanor]

That's not what that article claims. Do you have evidence to back up the fact that the 347 came out of the 1000 to be manufactured in India? Finally what stops India from continuing production past the 1000 limit afterwards?

 

[niteshkjain]

sorry wrong post

 

[Chrom]

That's not what that article claims. Do you have evidence to back up the fact that the 347 came out of the 1000 to be manufactured in India? Finally what stops India from continuing production past the 1000 limit afterwards?

License agreement. Also, if it is still not enough - there are still few vital parts in license produced T-90 which should be imported from Russia. Fully indigenous production is probably possible, but will require quite expensive research, developments, tests, etc. to produce replacements. Might be useful in the case of sudden "embargo" from Russia, but otherwise dont worth the effort.

 

[nevidimka]

Is the Kanchan Armour really good?

I found this bit interesting:

This is the time when the Russian Tank T-72 imported by Indian Army could not penetrate the Kanchan Armor protected Arjun Tank , with APFDS at point blank range. Subsequently, the debate took place if the Russians had supplied us with training rounds rather than the actual ammunition. As a side note, in January 2000 at Proof & Experimental Establishment (PXE), Balasore, Arjun tank armor defeated all available HESH and FSAPDS rounds including Israeli FSAPDS rounds.

http://frontierindia.net/the-kanchan-armor

Would newer rounds from T90's fare better? How better is the newer version of the Kanchan Armour?

 

[eckherl]

Is the Kanchan Armour really good?

I found this bit interesting:

This is the time when the Russian Tank T-72 imported by Indian Army could not penetrate the Kanchan Armor protected Arjun Tank , with APFDS at point blank range. Subsequently, the debate took place if the Russians had supplied us with training rounds rather than the actual ammunition. As a side note, in January 2000 at Proof & Experimental Establishment (PXE), Balasore, Arjun tank armor defeated all available HESH and FSAPDS rounds including Israeli FSAPDS rounds.

http://frontierindia.net/the-kanchan-armor

Would newer rounds from T90's fare better? How better is the newer version of the Kanchan Armour?

We will most likely not know what type of rounds that they used for testing purposes but I highly doubt that Russia tried to off load training rounds instead of combat rounds seeings how India is fully capable of making their own.

 

[Chrom]

We will most likely not know what type of rounds that they used for testing purposes but I highly doubt that Russia tried to off load training rounds instead of combat rounds seeings how India is fully capable of making their own.

Most likely T-72 used something like 3BM-22/26 - the newest rounds realistically could be available to India prior to big T-90 shipment.

These have 430/450 mm penetration at 2000m, with average penetration against laminate armor.

Another possible round could be 3BM-32, with about 560mm at 2000m. But i dont think this round was exported in 90x, particular due to DU content.

Theoretically, 3BM-42/46 could be also tested (500/650mm penetration at 2000m, with good abilities against laminated composite armor) - but i dont believe these were sold to Indians by that time.

If we take 3BM-26 as most likely round, then there is nothing impossible in Arjun resisting that round, even point blank. 3BM-26 would have about 520-550mm penetration point-blank, with as i said only average performance against composite armor.

 

[nevidimka]

Wouldnt the Israeli Sabot round be better?

What was funny though is that, the armour was soo good they thought they had training rounds..! nfloorl:

 

[dipgroy]

Induction begins

There is an update which says the intial induction of Arjun MBT has begin even before the comparative - competative test along with T-90s.

http://www.tribuneindia.com/2009/20090207/main6.htm

Army falls for Arjun, induction by month-end
Ajay Banerjee
Tribune News Service

New Delhi, February 6
In what may be considered as a fillip for the country’s indigenous production of defence equipment, the first-ever fleet of Indian-made Arjun battle tanks would be inducted into the Army by February end.

A total 45 tanks would form this armoured regiment and the first order of tanks is expected to arrive within next three weeks. In the first phase, 18-20 tanks would be handed over to the Indian Army by the heavy vehicle factory, Avadi, Tamil Nadu. Already, about 85 tanks are in various stages of production.

Notably, the induction is coming almost 36 years after India announced its programme to build own tanks, and the process was laced with glitches and delays.

The tanks would be available at the Armoured Corps Centre and School (ACCS), Ahmednagar, Maharashtra, where training of personnel would be carried out. It would take a few months more before the Arjun is actually deployed in one of the armoured corps on field duties. It is likely that the deployment could be the Indo-Pak border where a majority of the 59 tank regiments of the Army are deployed.

The induction is coming despite stiff opposition from within the armed forces, which tested the tank to the hilt and agreed only after various parameters were met. Defence Minister AK Antony stood his ground and made it clear that the 58-tonne Arjun would be inducted, as it was working fine.

Well-placed sources in the government said the tanks earlier had to be handed over by January end, but the deadline was extended by a month. Sources in Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) confirmed that the tanks were ready for shipment and handing-over to the Army.

Rather, the move implies that the induction would be carried out without waiting for the much-awaited comparative trials of the indigenous Arjun tanks with Russian-made T-90s, as had been desired by the DRDO.

The interesting fact is that Defence Minister AK Antony said "it was working fine". where goes all those fault mentioned by the army???? On a regional news channel ( I dont know they have any online link of their news or not) remark this as a key event which get a huge boost up from Railway dept. as one basic bottleneck for Arjun as early mentioned is the transoport related problem as they are of over-weight than Railway supports. Though I dont know exactly what is behind that but may be its by the Railways modernization process ( Its good to see civil sector is also go through the revolution!!! !!!! ). If any one have some more details please comment.

 

[eckherl]

There is an update which says the intial induction of Arjun MBT has begin even before the comparative - competative test along with T-90s.

http://www.tribuneindia.com/2009/20090207/main6.htm



The interesting fact is that Defence Minister AK Antony said "it was working fine". where goes all those fault mentioned by the army???? On a regional news channel ( I dont know they have any online link of their news or not) remark this as a key event which get a huge boost up from Railway dept. as one basic bottleneck for Arjun as early mentioned is the transoport related problem as they are of over-weight than Railway supports. Though I dont know exactly what is behind that but may be its by the Railways modernization process ( Its good to see civil sector is also go through the revolution!!! !!!! ). If any one have some more details please comment.

I have a gut feeling that the Indian government did some of their own investigations inregards to the Arjun debacle and more than likely realize that the Army was just doing what they could to make the project go away.

But it is good to see that the Army finally has no choice but to sign for these vehicles and use them, who knows maybe they will end up liking them and feel the need for additional units.

I have not heard anything inregards to the train trestle system in India not being able to hold a load of Arjuns but maybe some of our fellow Indian contributors could shed some light on this. Also could they not just transport them by truck and trailer.

 

[the road runner]

The point i have just noticed is that it has "TAKEN 36 years," to design/construct the ARJUN tank.I am wondering if the design could be considered obsolete compared to T-90 the Indians are receiving ? AND why is the INDIAN ARMY so reluctant to take more ARJUN tanks.(sounds like the Indian Army wants the T-90 over the Arjun??)

Also the ARJUN "Power Plant" is an Indian design?????,could someone point me in the right direction here as i know little to nothing about this MBT.

 

[lalitghag]

It is possible that india may not consiber Arjun Tank and are looking for other option.As per news in Wikipedia

Latest developments

According to the transcript of the testimony to the Indian Parliament by the Defense Minister, the Arjun's latest defects have been rectified "periodically", and the army has "categorically" indicated Arjun's performance as satisfactory. 124 Arjun tanks will be inducted into the army, "one regiment by the end of this year (2008) and the next regiment by the summer of next year (2009)".[41]

The Arjun is to undergo comparative trials against the Indian Army's Russian-built T-90 tanks in June of 2009.[42] This is seen as a desperate, last-ditch effort to save the Arjun project, which requires an order of at least 500 units to make it feasible.[43]. Retired Lt. Col. Anil Bhat, a strategic analyst, pointed out that “the Arjun tank is cumbersome for strategic movement, i.e. to be taken from one sector to another. It is too wide and too heavy to be moved in the railway carriages that we have in India. The comparative trials are just an eyewash as Arjun is incomparable to T-90".

 

[funtz]

Retired Lt. Col. Anil Bhat, a strategic analyst, pointed out that “the Arjun tank is cumbersome for strategic movement, i.e. to be taken from one sector to another. It is too wide and too heavy to be moved in the railway carriages that we have in India. The comparative trials are just an eyewash as Arjun is incomparable to T-90".

what an odd thing to say, the weight and width is within the standard (in terms of the commercial load ), do the Indian Army have separate standards from the civilian ones and separate railway carriages than the civilian ones.

I am still amazed that T-90 a tank made for soviet/Russian army is fit for the Indian Army, the operating conditions must be about as different as can be.

The point i have just noticed is that it has "TAKEN 36 years," to design/construct the ARJUN tank.I am wondering if the design could be considered obsolete compared to T-90 the Indians are receiving ? AND why is the INDIAN ARMY so reluctant to take more ARJUN tanks.(sounds like the Indian Army wants the T-90 over the Arjun??)

Also the ARJUN "Power Plant" is an Indian design?????,could someone point me in the right direction here as i know little to nothing about this MBT.

They made two tanks in the 36 years, the current one had things being constantly added to the tank in the development phase, as a result of which it kept on getting delayed, as i am sure integration is no easy thing to do (no matter what industry one talks about)

The Army wants the T-90 they made the choice in the late 90s/early 2000s unfortunately they have had the same troubles with the T-90s as they have had with the Arjun, and as a result the Army is still a long way away from reaching any decent numbers in Armour modernisation.

Will the T-90s be outdated by the time they are inducted in numbers?

IMO that might just be the case, even when the Army has the money, they just can not do anything about it, if the Arjun vs. T-90 debate keeps on stretching soon the army might have requirement for a entirely new tank (other than these two).

If left upon the Indian Army they would like to close the indigenous MBT program, solve the T-90 problems and start dedicated production of all T-90 tanks instead of dedicating separate resources to the Arjun tank.

The army needed modern tanks 8-9 years ago, and are really late in terms of inducting them, i think this is a major cause of worry for the Indian army, and things are getting more problematic by the day.

 

[dragonfire]

Hmmm... interesting !

This is an about face - doubt if the Jun09 face off is going to happen and/or even if it happens wht consequences it will have

As far as dimensions is concerned the only major diff is the length - the Arjun is abt a mtr longer but weight wise it is far far heavier at 56 Tons when compared to the T-90S weight of abt 48 tons

But as per some comparisons, the Arjun is better off in terms of speed and power (1400 hp engine vs 1000 hp engine) also the transmission is fully auto compared to the mech transmission on the t-90, the arjun also features APUs on all the gun turrets compared to none on the t-90

as per a macro view the major diadvantages tht the arjun has could be its weight, its larger fuel consumption, its rifled gun compared to the recoiless guns on other major MBTs; however regarding the probs in user trial the DRDO had in the past accused the non performance of the tank on sabotage as well as excess use of the tank - which is why the comparitive face-off would have been a major point of dispute resolution for all parties - wonder if the face-off will be conducted at all

Or if the order will serve to become a platform for a small order with a view to kill the issue by claiming to have ordered but not in significant numbers to keep a production line open after the completion of this order and by then issuing a new set of expectations for its tanks which neither the T-90 nor the Arjun will be able to fullfil - which lead to the death of the Arjun with no repeat orders

 

[dipgroy]

A little about the development basic

the road runner: The point i have just noticed is that it has "TAKEN 36 years," to design/construct the ARJUN tank.I am wondering if the design could be considered obsolete compared to T-90 the Indians are receiving ? AND why is the INDIAN ARMY so reluctant to take more ARJUN tanks.(sounds like the Indian Army wants the T-90 over the Arjun??)

Don’t take it otherwise but suppose you are on a plan to prepare a fusion-dish of continental and Thai for a party and it take 6 week to become expert on that never does mean that you going serve them the dish which contains 6 week old ingredients. Is not it?
Well let me make the thing a bit more clear to you….. Whenever there is plan taken on any industry to produce some thing new it take a lot time on design-evolution-redesign phase. You can take help of any production model like spiral model or waterfall model even COCOMO model. The initial design phase is never self sufficient. So what the developer do is the first build a simple design and when it finished the start improving the parameters along with all possible deterministic method to improve its effectiveness. For simplicity am adding a line model for the design and evolution process along with a time frame.

As you can see on the diagram each part ABCDE….. takes some time and why this happen is just because at the beginning the designer knows a very less regarding the project and thus the product is some what less efficient than the actual requirement . With time their skill and knowledge also increases. You can remember the fact that NASA at the beginning fails on many occasion which remarkably decreases with time as their expertise grows. This term is very much important and became a key point when the development cross a line for which the model became much more advanced than the present time frame specification. And here after the production starts. It is quite obvious that the final out come is much more advanced than the initial design.

And again the fact is that even after entering the production stage the development stage does not ended. It is simply because the developer want to achieve some more future design which can withstand the upcoming market.

The same thing happens with the Arjun development process also and obviously Arjun is not a 36 year old thing rather I would prefer to say it just a new born baby which spend 36 year on the incubator And we can hope on near feature we can see a much more advanced version of that may be in some other name.