Russia-Georgia Conflict: News From the War zone
- Thread starter Feanor
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Realistically, they done all they could to supply them before. S.Ossetia and Abkhazia is very important for Russia for controlling said border access. As long as S. Ossetia and Abkhazia have russian-friendly government, it is much harder for foreigners to deliver weapons to rebels.
Also, Russia directly control Chechnya borders so it would be very hard to engage in full-scale contraband.
Everything is possible, but i havent seen any sign of it.
As the fog of war clears we can see that claims of 2000 civilian causalities in south ossetia are the result of propaganda. Real loses appear to be under 100 according to HRW.So much for genocide.
And Georgian claims of ethnic cleansing and destruction of infrastructure also appear to be over blown. Althought I can't see the Georgian minority lasting to long in a independent South Ossetia.
http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/world/la-fg-western19-2008aug19,0,4638281.story
rather than the stereotype of the steamroller the Russian Army seems to have avoided hitting any major civilian targets/infrastructure, apart from dual use items, (radar ect).
Its early days yet, but it seems that the Russians applied maximum military and political pressure with a minimum of force.
Probably one of the reasons the civilian loses were so low was the disintegration of the Georgian army early on. Fight wasn't fluid and did'ent range widely, once the Russian broke the seige of Tskhinvali, the Georgians quickly began to rout, this was probably due to the psychological stress of retreating under air attack, rather than actuall loses inflicted. After this the Russians rather leisurely advance did'ent face to much opposition.
It appears now that the imaginary Russian army the Georgian leadership was fighting was much more fearsome beast than the real Russian army, which despite its much announced arrival just never seemed to appear in Gori, at until after the fighting had pretty much ended.
Most of the fighting seemed to be concentrated in South Ossetia, and during the first few days. After that was over the Russians could have strolled into Tblisi.
The surprising thing is how restrained they were, they measured there punches well, and accomplished there military goals with a minimum of force.
And Georgian claims of ethnic cleansing and destruction of infrastructure also appear to be over blown. Althought I can't see the Georgian minority lasting to long in a independent South Ossetia.
http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/world/la-fg-western19-2008aug19,0,4638281.story
rather than the stereotype of the steamroller the Russian Army seems to have avoided hitting any major civilian targets/infrastructure, apart from dual use items, (radar ect).
Its early days yet, but it seems that the Russians applied maximum military and political pressure with a minimum of force.
Probably one of the reasons the civilian loses were so low was the disintegration of the Georgian army early on. Fight wasn't fluid and did'ent range widely, once the Russian broke the seige of Tskhinvali, the Georgians quickly began to rout, this was probably due to the psychological stress of retreating under air attack, rather than actuall loses inflicted. After this the Russians rather leisurely advance did'ent face to much opposition.
It appears now that the imaginary Russian army the Georgian leadership was fighting was much more fearsome beast than the real Russian army, which despite its much announced arrival just never seemed to appear in Gori, at until after the fighting had pretty much ended.
Most of the fighting seemed to be concentrated in South Ossetia, and during the first few days. After that was over the Russians could have strolled into Tblisi.
The surprising thing is how restrained they were, they measured there punches well, and accomplished there military goals with a minimum of force.
Sampanviking
Banned Member
No I doubt if there is anything beyond the normal rivalry between powerful men and probably less than between our own Career Politicians.
I would say that the Partnership between the two is highly successful due to the fact that their individual skill sets compliment each other perfectly.
Putin, the ex KGB man specialising in Security and Intelligence
Medvedev, the former President of Gazprom and a highly effective/successful Business Strategist and Negotiator.
The pairing is proving quite formidable in many areas.
The georgian war has connections to the missile defence being created by US.
This article sums it up :
http://www.defencetalk.com/news/pub...ense_In_Europe_Becomes_A_Reality160016307.php
Seriously I dont know why the US is playing with fire. If WW3 ever happens between US and Russia, History will record US as the Idiot who started the war.
Ever since the Soviet Union Breakup, US could have chosen to accommodate it into the western values and be another pacifist EU country, but no, it keep pushing it back towards the wall forcing it to retaliate. It shows that the huge US military needs an enemy to survive, and hence the events surrounding Russia. IF there ever was a nuclear showdown , the US has no 1 else to blame but themselves, and I'm not sure if the US citizen's are prepared to accept the losses this risky game their gov is willing to play.
This article sums it up :
http://www.defencetalk.com/news/pub...ense_In_Europe_Becomes_A_Reality160016307.php
Seriously I dont know why the US is playing with fire. If WW3 ever happens between US and Russia, History will record US as the Idiot who started the war.
Ever since the Soviet Union Breakup, US could have chosen to accommodate it into the western values and be another pacifist EU country, but no, it keep pushing it back towards the wall forcing it to retaliate. It shows that the huge US military needs an enemy to survive, and hence the events surrounding Russia. IF there ever was a nuclear showdown , the US has no 1 else to blame but themselves, and I'm not sure if the US citizen's are prepared to accept the losses this risky game their gov is willing to play.
Venezuela wants to host Russian Navy fleet. Chavez has invited Russia.
Russia may use this as an answer to US missile base in Poland and also reactivate the SIGINT base in Cuba.
http://www.spacewar.com/reports/US_Venezuelas_Russia_fleet_invite_is_curious_999.html
Btw, I wont be surprised if there happens to be a colour revolution move springing up in Venezuela.
Russia may use this as an answer to US missile base in Poland and also reactivate the SIGINT base in Cuba.
http://www.spacewar.com/reports/US_Venezuelas_Russia_fleet_invite_is_curious_999.html
Btw, I wont be surprised if there happens to be a colour revolution move springing up in Venezuela.
I agree with Merocaine the Russians are not fighting the way the Russians are known to in the past, they seem to be generally well behaved and are not acting like animals even thought the propaganda says they are. This does on bode well for our side if we get caught in a bunch of lies again.
HRW dont have anything. They even wasnt there, in S.Osstia, , so i dont know what crack they were smocking. Lets wait until thing clears a bit.
Hm, what way? How it was different?
May be in the past propaganda also played some role? By any chance?
Normally the Russians would kill every one and let well not one sort them out you know how that normally deal with civilians. And I am sure you know what the first casualty of war is? If the Russians were acting like Attilia the Hun we would know about it loud and clear but all we have is alligations from the losing side.
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Quite a large political backlash over the conflict is developing. NATO turned down an American suggestion to stop defense cooperation with Russia during a summit in Brussels. The British Foreign Minister said that he is against isolating Russia, and suggested expanded cooperation.
Russian forces are said to withdraw from Georgia proper, and partially from the conflict zone, by August 22nd. Georgia has officially stated that it has lost 215 dead and 70 missing in action, with 1469 wounded. 69 of the casualties are allegedly civilians. Georgian claims 20 Georgian soldiers were captured by Russian forces in Poti, Russian mentioned 22 captured during an operation in Poti (which was earlier denied by Russian forces). On-lookers claim that Russian forces destroyed two Georgian boats that were damaged by fire earlier. Nogovitsuin claims that 20 Georgians "armed to the teeth" were captured in the port, including 3 Arab mercenaries. They were all disarmed, and the Georgian regulars were released, the Arabs were detained for further investigation. A Russian peacekeeping post will be stationed in Poti on a semi-permanent basis.
Finally Russia has turned down the U.N. resolution on Georgia which mentioned territorial integrity of Georgia.
So realistically it looks like the conflict is leaving the west divided. Russia's recent international policy has been mild enough to attract some NATO countries with the idea of cooperation, but has left other suspicious. Ukraine is clearly taking the hint from all of this, and trying to ensure it's safety from a similar situation with Crimea or the Donbass. Finally the U.S., which initially did not do much, has stepped up efforts to protect it's interests in Georgia. It almost seems to me that when Bush and Putin had a chance to talk about things in Beijing it helped, but as soon as Bush was back and no new meetings between Medvedev or Putin, and Bush took place things went in a different direction.
EDIT: A journalist for himself witnessed Russian forces deep in Georgian territory on August 18th. Here's the whole article, it was a good read and offered some insight into Russian activity as well as the attitude of the common soldiers on the ground.
http://kommersant.com/p1012852/r_527/Russia_Georgia_South_Ossetia_conflict/
EDIT2: Russia has begun the pullout, this time it was verified by independent observers (Reuters). A Russian troop column was seen moving from Gori towards Vladikavkaz. The column allegedly consisted of 6 BMPs, 3 tanks including a T-90 (he may have mistaken a T-72 with K5 for a T-90, as neither the Tamanskaya, nor the Kantemirskaya, nor the 5th Gds are in the conflict zone), a mobile SAM, and several trucks.
Russian forces are said to withdraw from Georgia proper, and partially from the conflict zone, by August 22nd. Georgia has officially stated that it has lost 215 dead and 70 missing in action, with 1469 wounded. 69 of the casualties are allegedly civilians. Georgian claims 20 Georgian soldiers were captured by Russian forces in Poti, Russian mentioned 22 captured during an operation in Poti (which was earlier denied by Russian forces). On-lookers claim that Russian forces destroyed two Georgian boats that were damaged by fire earlier. Nogovitsuin claims that 20 Georgians "armed to the teeth" were captured in the port, including 3 Arab mercenaries. They were all disarmed, and the Georgian regulars were released, the Arabs were detained for further investigation. A Russian peacekeeping post will be stationed in Poti on a semi-permanent basis.
Finally Russia has turned down the U.N. resolution on Georgia which mentioned territorial integrity of Georgia.
So realistically it looks like the conflict is leaving the west divided. Russia's recent international policy has been mild enough to attract some NATO countries with the idea of cooperation, but has left other suspicious. Ukraine is clearly taking the hint from all of this, and trying to ensure it's safety from a similar situation with Crimea or the Donbass. Finally the U.S., which initially did not do much, has stepped up efforts to protect it's interests in Georgia. It almost seems to me that when Bush and Putin had a chance to talk about things in Beijing it helped, but as soon as Bush was back and no new meetings between Medvedev or Putin, and Bush took place things went in a different direction.
EDIT: A journalist for himself witnessed Russian forces deep in Georgian territory on August 18th. Here's the whole article, it was a good read and offered some insight into Russian activity as well as the attitude of the common soldiers on the ground.
http://kommersant.com/p1012852/r_527/Russia_Georgia_South_Ossetia_conflict/
EDIT2: Russia has begun the pullout, this time it was verified by independent observers (Reuters). A Russian troop column was seen moving from Gori towards Vladikavkaz. The column allegedly consisted of 6 BMPs, 3 tanks including a T-90 (he may have mistaken a T-72 with K5 for a T-90, as neither the Tamanskaya, nor the Kantemirskaya, nor the 5th Gds are in the conflict zone), a mobile SAM, and several trucks.
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Burunsuzoglu
New Member
you ain't seen nothing yet......
Lol. Propaganda victim.
FluffyThoughts
Member
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/7572635.stm
Looks like some people need to reassess their contribution to this discussion...!
Looks like some people need to reassess their contribution to this discussion...!
So?http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/7572635.stm
Looks like some people need to reassess their contribution to this discussion...!
The number of people who died during genocide by Serb forces was inflated 40 fold by the US in the run up to the NATO bombardment.
In more relevant news; Russian troops were seen today driving off with 5 captured US Marine Corps Humvee's as they began pulling back their forces from Georgia.
Here's a picture of one of the USMC Humvee's captured by the Russians.
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40 fold
Maybe it was 60 no 80 fold or better yet maybe the Americans said they were leaving food and medical supplies and when the people show up we just bomb them. The real truth was the US just had some extra bombs and needed it to use them up that's all there was never any genocide right?
FluffyThoughts
Member
If that is US sovereign property surely taking war-booty of a non-participant nation within a conflict is against the conduct-of-war? I know the Soviet's stole their allies gold in the Spanish Civil War, but surely current international law will not tolerate such a blatant abuse...?
Even Japan returned that Mig-25 they were gifted. Of course, only after Tamiya had caste it's model-kit...!
This article is intentional and conscious word twisting of russian prosecutor interview - to the point of becoming a lie. Russian prosecutor said 133 documented deaths with names, expertise, all formalizes enough for immediate court.http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/7572635.stm
Looks like some people need to reassess their contribution to this discussion...!
In the same interview he also said there are hundreds of dead bodies NOT yet documented - pointing to graves and said along the lines - "see, this is another grave. We dont yet know how many bodies in it - 1,2, may be 5. We continue to work."
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