Russia-Georgia Conflict: News From the War zone

[Feanor]

If that is US sovereign property surely taking war-booty of a non-participant nation within a conflict is against the conduct-of-war? I know the Soviet's stole their allies gold in the Spanish Civil War, but surely current international law will not tolerate such a blatant abuse...?

Even Japan returned that Mig-25 they were gifted. Of course, only after Tamiya had caste it's model-kit...!

Apparently some drafted soldiers were sent into the conflict zone by Russia, despite previous assurances. While the numbers seem very insignificant, it's an alarming fact.

Also Russian intelligence claims to have uncovered a Georgian provocation planned in Gori. Russian casualties have been corrected in a recent interview and are now at 64 dead.

Finally the Pentagon accused Russia of stealing American military equipment in Georgia.

 

[ROCK45]

USMC Humvee

I wonder what kind of equipment was in the Humvee? Maybe the extra armor added was worth taking it for or the type of armor?

I found this and wanted to know if it is a SAM taking out a Georgian Su-25. Thanks
http://www.vesti.ru/videos?vid=143742

 

[eaf-f16]

Maybe it was 60 no 80 fold or better yet maybe the Americans said they were leaving food and medical supplies and when the people show up we just bomb them. The real truth was the US just had some extra bombs and needed it to use them up that's all there was never any genocide right?

Nope. There was a genocide and one I wish never happened since the ones being massacred were Muslims. Never said there wasn't.

I was responding to Fluffy Thought's post about Russia reducing the official death toll. He made it seem like this was an extraordinary case of lying about causalities. I was just pointing out that this wasn't the case and incidentally the US' inflated estimates about the genocide by Serb forces just happened to be the most similar case to this one. In fact, I would say almost identical in everything except in scale.

But, I have to correct myself. Some people still say that 300,000 were killed by the Serbs but the official figure (correct me if I'm wrong) is 8,000. Same here, some people believe that 2,000 were killed but right now (officially) there have been a little over a hundred documented deaths.

Also, when you respond by putting words into my mouth instead of correcting me on any factual errors or refuting what I said, it shows that you have no real argument (which is sort of a trend with you).

If that is US sovereign property surely taking war-booty of a non-participant nation within a conflict is against the conduct-of-war? I know the Soviet's stole their allies gold in the Spanish Civil War, but surely current international law will not tolerate such a blatant abuse...?

Even Japan returned that Mig-25 they were gifted. Of course, only after Tamiya had caste it's model-kit...!

Well, it depends on how the US wants to take the incident.

Do you honestly believe that the US would declare war on Russia over 5 Humvee's?

 

[ASFC]

Well, it depends on how the US wants to take the incident.

Do you honestly believe that the US would declare war on Russia over 5 Humvee's?

I would point out that wars have been fought over smaller things than five humvees. :wink:

I shouldn't make much of it-if it was an F-22 they were towing away, then it might have been something to watch. Otherwise its just five trucks, which unless they are carrying some new top secret gadget, only have political value in retrieving.

 

[eckherl]

I wonder what kind of equipment was in the Humvee? Maybe the extra armor added was worth taking it for or the type of armor?

I found this and wanted to know if it is a SAM taking out a Georgian Su-25. Thanks
http://www.vesti.ru/videos?vid=143742

Anything that may of been sensitive technology would of been pulled out of them before placing them inside of the shipping containers, especially in that part of the world. So in a nut shell they have a few general vehicles and a couple of uparmored vehicles, and no, the armor is not classified. Our government will most likely thank them for saving us the shipping costs back to the states.

 

[nevidimka]

This is a great article, and very true. But then again it will not be acceted by the still ignorant western gov's and its ppl.

http://www.spacewar.com/reports/Atlantic_Eye_Lost_lessons_of_the_Cold_War_999.html

 

[FluffyThoughts]

Eaf-f16

You appear to be rather uninformed about the cost of the Bosnian war. The following is incorrect:

But, I have to correct myself. Some people still say that 300,000 were killed by the Serbs but the official figure (correct me if I'm wrong) is 8,000.

The 8,000 you refer to is the figure for three-days of murder in Srebrenica. Similar, smaller atrocities occurred in other Bosniak villages in the local region, add to which the attacks on civilians in Sarajevo, Tuzla, Goradze, etc. Then there was the cost of the civil-war itself. If you are interested may I suggest checking the charge-sheets at Den Hague (or query - with an open-mind - Wikipedia). However this episode is off-topic.

Chrom's response to my link is one I am willing to keep an open-mind to. [I speak neither Russian and have seen a fall in journalist standards at the BBC (IMHO).] Let's hope more information will be released by neutral sources before we choose to make conclusive decisions!

 

[Grand Danois]

This is a great article, and very true. But then again it will not be acceted by the still ignorant western gov's and its ppl.

http://www.spacewar.com/reports/Atlantic_Eye_Lost_lessons_of_the_Cold_War_999.html

It's quite poor on many counts - it's opinion. I'll limit my comment to the radar in Azerbaidjan - it was junk, it was not politically secure and it was not in an optimal position geographically. Yes, it could provide early warning but not fire control - a red herring.

 

[ROCK45]

40 fold

I knew they were Muslims and was surprise your made that comment. My 60 or 80 fold comment is because you can never stop bashing the United States. Can't just stop getting in the the little dig all the time and I just get tired of it. If I bashed your country or Muslims as much you dig into the United States you'll be flipping out. Couldn't you word your post a little differently I was enjoying this thread.

 

[ROCK45]

Gear

Thanks eckherl I kind of assume the really cool stuff would have been removed. I was concern who ever was there ran out of time and maybe the armor might have been left.

In all those pictures of destroyed tanks were those taken out by RPG or anti-tank missiles? I guess they can't put that added ERA armor everywhere.

 

[Preceptor]

As a reminder to poster, this thread is restricted SOLELY to news and discussion of the recent Russia-Georgia conflict, and the implications that has for the region and the rest of the world. Other conflicts and/or international disagreements (i.e. Bosnia, Kosovo, etc) are not up for discussion here, being off topic. Prior threads on this topic have been closed due to posters not staying on topic. Further divergence from the thread topic will be deleted.
-Preceptor

 

[eckherl]

Thanks eckherl I kind of assume the really cool stuff would have been removed. I was concern who ever was there ran out of time and maybe the armor might have been left.

In all those pictures of destroyed tanks were those taken out by RPG or anti-tank missiles? I guess they can't put that added ERA armor everywhere.

Yes - some of them were destroyed by RPG series projectiles, we will have to see what other types of munitions also assisted in some of these vehicles destruction. Russians did not escape some equipment losses either.

 

[eckherl]

As a reminder to poster, this thread is restricted SOLELY to news and discussion of the recent Russia-Georgia conflict, and the implications that has for the region and the rest of the world. Other conflicts and/or international disagreements (i.e. Bosnia, Kosovo, etc) are not up for discussion here, being off topic. Prior threads on this topic have been closed due to posters not staying on topic. Further divergence from the thread topic will be deleted.
-Preceptor

Many thanks Perceptor.

 

[ROCK45]

Russians

I thought those were destroyed Russian T-72? If and when the Russians pulls out I think more information will come out. We live in the information age and people who live through this will start posting home videos and such.

I read this thread and the other one but its difficult getting a understanding of the combat. Without the means to stop air attacks any Georgian strong hold would become targets in modern warfare. At least with artillery radar your regiments might be able to shoot back to some point. I wonder how much high tech or smart weapons were used. Su-24 can carry all types of weapons even some stand-off types I just don't know any details. Maybe I just didn't see it but I'm looking for what units went up against which and how it played out. How were positions rolled up? Were mechanized flaking maneuvers used? Did Russian air take out Georgian rear support and reserve areas? Do you think this type of information will be released?

 

[eaf-f16]

You appear to be rather uninformed about the cost of the Bosnian war. The following is incorrect:

The 8,000 you refer to is the figure for three-days of murder in Srebrenica. Similar, smaller atrocities occurred in other Bosniak villages in the local region, add to which the attacks on civilians in Sarajevo, Tuzla, Goradze, etc. Then there was the cost of the civil-war itself. If you are interested may I suggest checking the charge-sheets at Den Hague (or query - with an open-mind - Wikipedia). However this episode is off-topic.

I don't get mad when someone corrects me. That is why I was inviting any better informed person to correct me if I'm wrong.

I want point out that I never meant to say that 8,000 was the actual number of people killed by the Serbs. I was saying that (from memory) this was the "official" figure. Of course, you can correct me on this. But I can't seem to find anything.

I knew they were Muslims and was surprise your made that comment. My 60 or 80 fold comment is because you can never stop bashing the United States. Can't just stop getting in the the little dig all the time and I just get tired of it. If I bashed your country or Muslims as much you dig into the United States you'll be flipping out. Couldn't you word your post a little differently I was enjoying this thread.

Maybe I could have worded it differently. That's my fault. But like I said above, my point wasn't to bash the US.

But this is getting way too off topic.

******
Back to the topic.


Russia circulated it's own draft UNSC resolution concerning Georgia after it rejected another one written by France and other Western countries.

Norway says that Russia has cut all military ties with NATO, presumably in response to the Georgian conflict. But Russia's ambassador to NATO said that the freeze was temporary and "of a regional character, not a global character".

Georgian President Saakashvili says he doesn't believe that Russia will really pull out all of its forces from Georgia saying that they "are making fun of the world" and also accused Russia of mounting a deception campaign.

Russian President Dimitry Medvedev and Israeli PM Ehud Omlert held talks to discuss Israeli defense companies' involvement in training and equipping the Georgian armed forces and the Middle East peace process ahead of a planned visit by Russia's President to Syria to discuss the ME peace process.

The Ukrainian president said that Russia's invasion of Georgia showed that gaining NATO membership was the only way the Ukraine could guarantee its sovereignty. The Ukrainian PM, however, said that she is unhappy with the tension with Russia over the Black Sea fleet row.

Edit: Fluffy Thoughts, PM me so we don't go off topic.

 

[eckherl]

I thought those were destroyed Russian T-72? If and when the Russians pulls out I think more information will come out. We live in the information age and people who live through this will start posting home videos and such.

I read this thread and the other one but its difficult getting a understanding of the combat. Without the means to stop air attacks any Georgian strong hold would become targets in modern warfare. At least with artillery radar your regiments might be able to shoot back to some point. I wonder how much high tech or smart weapons were used. Su-24 can carry all types of weapons even some stand-off types I just don't know any details. Maybe I just didn't see it but I'm looking for what units went up against which and how it played out. How were positions rolled up? Were mechanized flaking maneuvers used? Did Russian air take out Georgian rear support and reserve areas? Do you think this type of information will be released?

Georgia used some of the same type of T-72B series tanks as the Russians did, I would think that fracticide was a challenge on both ends during long range engagements. This conflict was over as soon as the Russians decided to move their forces in, there was no way that Georgia would even stand a slight chance of controlling the skies or air waves, these are two of the most important factors when it comes to winning a battle, if you lose these assets your through and it showed on the Georgian side.

 

[Firehorse]

Here is another pic of a humvee- http://www.jeffhead.com/georgia/16.htm
It's uparmored and is the same type used in Iraq. The Russian experts will surely examine & return them to Georgians- I don't think they'll bother to ship them to the US!
Georgian planning flaws led to failure
http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Central_Asia/JH20Ag01.html

This is a slightly new angle-
A new world order: The week Russia flexed its military muscle
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...russia-flexed-its-military-muscle-902741.html

So, was a trap really set up for Georgians to walk into? I guess it depends who you talk to. We still don't know the whole story, and won't for some time!

 

[Topmaul]

You guys crack me up, who gives a crap about 5 humvees more than that are destroyed every month in training, what about all the top secret NATO information they captured at various Georgian military bases, 5 humvees give me a break. They are nothing compaired to all the encryption machinery taken, along with radar gear, technical manuals. This is nothing short of a disaster and some of you are worried about 5 vehicles? Talk about the drive by media.


On a side note tell me about the 300 plus advisors are they accounted for?

 

[eckherl]

You guys crack me up, who gives a crap about 5 humvees more than that are destroyed every month in training, what about all the top secret NATO information they captured at various Georgian military bases, 5 humvees give me a break. They are nothing compaired to all the encryption machinery taken, along with radar gear, technical manuals. This is nothing short of a disaster and some of you are worried about 5 vehicles? Talk about the drive by media.


On a side note tell me about the 300 plus advisors are they accounted for?

Why do you guys keep assuming that there are 300 U.S military advisors in Georgia, there were only 130 of them, and yes the Russians left them alone. What makes you think that Russia got their hands on technology sensitive equipment used by NATO.

 

[eckherl]

Here is another pic of a humvee- http://www.jeffhead.com/georgia/16.htm
It's uparmored and is the same type used in Iraq. The Russian experts will surely examine & return them to Georgians- I don't think they'll bother to ship them to the US!
Georgian planning flaws led to failure
http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Central_Asia/JH20Ag01.html

This is a slightly new angle-
A new world order: The week Russia flexed its military muscle
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...russia-flexed-its-military-muscle-902741.html

So, was a trap really set up for Georgians to walk into? I guess it depends who you talk to. We still don't know the whole story, and won't for some time!

Whats there to examine, hell we would most likely sell them the bloody things if they wanted them.