The Arjun Tank

[Waylander]

I doubt that somebody is going to ramp up production again in this factory.
There are two sophisticated eastern tank designs out there with the T-90S and T-84. Additionally there are enough companies offering upgrades for older Ts from 55-80 including newbuilds like the PT-91s.
IMHO the market is full. If anybody isn't buying a new tank or an upgrade package from the existing companies than this buyier won't buy any eastern design at all.

 

[niteshkjain]

http://www.outlookindia.com/pti_news.asp?gid=73&id=591056

India sets in motion plans to build futuristic tanks

NEW DELHI, JULY 22 (PTI)
To keep up with the trend amongst major powers, Indian army today set in motion the process of building a futuristic main battle tank (MBT), which will be inducted post 2020.

Army is visualising that the future tanks could be network operated sans the crew and has given the nod for framing general qualitative staff requirements (GQSR) for such a mean machine.

Plans for going in for such smart tanks and infantry combat vehicles were unveiled today at an international seminar on future MBTs, which was attended by the Defence Minister A K Antony and Army Chief General Deepak Kapoor.

"Next five years would see all aerial combat unmanned and the same process could take over the land systems in another 10 to 15 years," said Lt Gen Dilip Bhardawaj, Director General of the country's mechanised forces in his presentation.

Asked if a future tank would be an indigenous effort, the Defence Minister said the emphasis would be on building an inhouse tank but, at the same time, did not rule out the possibility of a "collaborative effort on technology sharing basis".

Antony was not forthcoming on whether plans to develop a new tank would sound a death knell for the country's maiden effort in producing Arjun main battle tank.

Though the Government has given the green signal for commercial production and induction of 124 Arjun tanks, the indegenious weapon platform is yet to be inducted into the army. They have to pass the final comparative trials with Russian tanks.

Asked whether more Arjun tanks would be inducted into army armoured formations said, Antony said: "Let us await the full rolling out of the 124 sanctioned tanks".

At the seminar, Nikolai Malykh, Director General of Russia's biggest tank Producer Uralvagonzavod, said India and Russia were mulling the joint development of a futuristic 'smart' battle tank, featuring higher speed and better firepower.

Malykh said preliminary discussions have already taken place and UVZ experts will be coming to India to carry forward the issue on the margins of international seminar.

He said the new tank featuring higher speed, better firepower, sophisticated armour protection and a smoother ride will mark "a great step forward in armour technology".

For the survivability of the highly trained human assets, armour-protected crew compartment will be sealed from the unmanned turret equipped with an automatic loader.

The crew will be networked with a virtual-reality command information system linked to reconnaissance aircraft and satellites.

The new tank is likely to have a new main gun of up to 152 mm calibre and a new hunter-killer fire control system with target acquisition inoptical, thermal, infrared and radar spectrum that will be accessible both to the gunner and tank commander.

 

[eckherl]

http://www.outlookindia.com/pti_news.asp?gid=73&id=591056

India sets in motion plans to build futuristic tanks

NEW DELHI, JULY 22 (PTI)
To keep up with the trend amongst major powers, Indian army today set in motion the process of building a futuristic main battle tank (MBT), which will be inducted post 2020.

Army is visualising that the future tanks could be network operated sans the crew and has given the nod for framing general qualitative staff requirements (GQSR) for such a mean machine.

Plans for going in for such smart tanks and infantry combat vehicles were unveiled today at an international seminar on future MBTs, which was attended by the Defence Minister A K Antony and Army Chief General Deepak Kapoor.

"Next five years would see all aerial combat unmanned and the same process could take over the land systems in another 10 to 15 years," said Lt Gen Dilip Bhardawaj, Director General of the country's mechanised forces in his presentation.

Asked if a future tank would be an indigenous effort, the Defence Minister said the emphasis would be on building an inhouse tank but, at the same time, did not rule out the possibility of a "collaborative effort on technology sharing basis".

Antony was not forthcoming on whether plans to develop a new tank would sound a death knell for the country's maiden effort in producing Arjun main battle tank.

Though the Government has given the green signal for commercial production and induction of 124 Arjun tanks, the indegenious weapon platform is yet to be inducted into the army. They have to pass the final comparative trials with Russian tanks.

Asked whether more Arjun tanks would be inducted into army armoured formations said, Antony said: "Let us await the full rolling out of the 124 sanctioned tanks".

At the seminar, Nikolai Malykh, Director General of Russia's biggest tank Producer Uralvagonzavod, said India and Russia were mulling the joint development of a futuristic 'smart' battle tank, featuring higher speed and better firepower.

Malykh said preliminary discussions have already taken place and UVZ experts will be coming to India to carry forward the issue on the margins of international seminar.

He said the new tank featuring higher speed, better firepower, sophisticated armour protection and a smoother ride will mark "a great step forward in armour technology".

For the survivability of the highly trained human assets, armour-protected crew compartment will be sealed from the unmanned turret equipped with an automatic loader.

The crew will be networked with a virtual-reality command information system linked to reconnaissance aircraft and satellites.

The new tank is likely to have a new main gun of up to 152 mm calibre and a new hunter-killer fire control system with target acquisition inoptical, thermal, infrared and radar spectrum that will be accessible both to the gunner and tank commander.

Again - nothing more than BS talk to get everyone off of the Arjun bandwagon, this is really sad for India, you had the oppurtunity to build your very own MBT and you pissed it away for a few bad apples in your military staff. Pakistan actually did a pretty good job in the area of keeping pace with the MBT capability threat coming out of your country, and real quick like they will be building Al Khalids with the majority of components manufactured out of Pakistan versus Norinco. I just hope that DRDOOs talent and experience pool doesn`t get discouraged and move on to the private sector.

 

[eckherl]

Exactly. A little peice of news, the manufacturing base of Omsk Transmash is being sold off. Their repair assets have been bought and will be turned into a maintenance center for current Russian T-80 units. The production plant is still up for grabs. We'll see what happens.

That is old old news.

 

[Waylander]

Aerial combat is going to be unmanned in 5 years and ground combat 5-10 years later? nfloorl:

Oh common, as if anybody (including the General) would believe such BS.

 

[kams]

Aerial combat is going to be unmanned in 5 years and ground combat 5-10 years later? nfloorl:

Oh common, as if anybody (including the General) would believe such BS.

Wait till you start reading about how FMBT can take up the role of UCAV too..

 

[Chrom]

Again - nothing more than BS talk to get everyone off of the Arjun bandwagon, this is really sad for India, you had the oppurtunity to build your very own MBT and you pissed it away for a few bad apples in your military staff. Pakistan actually did a pretty good job in the area of keeping pace with the MBT capability threat coming out of your country, and real quick like they will be building Al Khalids with the majority of components manufactured out of Pakistan versus Norinco. I just hope that DRDOOs talent and experience pool doesn`t get discouraged and move on to the private sector.

You are wrong when you blame military on that stuff. Buying or not buying Arjun is FULLY and EXCLUSIVE POLITICAL decision. Military generals already expressed they views - for them 2000 T-90 is better than 1000 Arjuns. If for some political reasons acquiring Arjun is more desirable - then politicians should assume full responsibility for such decision and ORDER MOD to buy Arjun - regardless of any deficiency. Right now no one willing to take responsibility for such decision - i.e. paying more money for still not fully ready tank.

They just gone wrong way trying to prove Arjun is better than T-90. Look, no other tank-building country trying to prove what new domestic tank is better than foreign when shopping. France dont compare Leclerc to Abrams. Germany dont compare Leo's to Challis. Russia also dont look around. They just buy domestic tank regardless - because they military have no choice due to government orders.

As i said, Arjun is already ready for service. Yes, it have some problems. Yes, probably it have much more problems than already proven T-90. But almost all other worlds tanks also had similar or even bigger problems initially and still were inducted in service. So as i said, if politically Arjun needs to be in service - then dont blame military. It is not they job do play with politics.

 

[eckherl]

You are wrong when you blame military on that stuff. Buying or not buying Arjun is FULLY and EXCLUSIVE POLITICAL decision. Military generals already expressed they views - for them 2000 T-90 is better than 1000 Arjuns. If for some political reasons acquiring Arjun is more desirable - then politicians should assume full responsibility for such decision and ORDER MOD to buy Arjun - regardless of any deficiency. Right now no one willing to take responsibility for such decision - i.e. paying more money for still not fully ready tank.

They just gone wrong way trying to prove Arjun is better than T-90. Look, no other tank-building country trying to prove what new domestic tank is better than foreign when shopping. France dont compare Leclerc to Abrams. Germany dont compare Leo's to Challis. Russia also dont look around. They just buy domestic tank regardless - because they military have no choice due to government orders.

As i said, Arjun is already ready for service. Yes, it have some problems. Yes, probably it have much more problems than already proven T-90. But almost all other worlds tanks also had similar or even bigger problems initially and still were inducted in service. So as i said, if politically Arjun needs to be in service - then dont blame military. It is not they job do play with politics.

It is the politicians fault that their military deliberately sabotaged/disrupted field testing of Arjun, that is a load of BS and some heads should roll at the top brass level to enure that future intentual debacles do not present themselves again. You cannot say that the Arjun was less of a tank when it came to comparing combat capabilities versus a T-90S, the military rigged the tests. Either way I have been informed by a reliable source when it comes to Indian military matters that we may see up to 200 Arjuns and that will be it, Indian military will expect everyone to let the Arjun project to go away with the promise of a test on a future tank design by DRDO. You are also wrong to think that India`s top brass is not holding alot of influence on what gets into service.

 

[Feanor]

Chrom the problem is that the military does wield political influence, and tries to control the decision making process.

 

[kay_man]

Chrom the problem is that the military does wield political influence, and tries to control the decision making process.

Its not about who influences who.
the ministry makes the decision of what to buy , and in tha past many former airmen blamed the ministry for purchasing the Marut aircraft.
but now the media is very proactive so any wrong decision will affect the votes and a lot of other things ( india being a democracy)

also we must remember the army is largest arm of the military and has the most supporters and sympathizers.
that affects a lot of thing.

the whole deal is way to complicated to explain.

 

[extern]

Exactly. A little peice of news, the manufacturing base of Omsk Transmash is being sold off. Their repair assets have been bought and will be turned into a maintenance center for current Russian T-80 units. The production plant is still up for grabs. We'll see what happens.

Omsktransmash together with its design buraue just merge with UVZ. The goverment allready paid the debts. The intellectual property of all Russian tank developers is united.

 

[Chrom]

It is the politicians fault that their military deliberately sabotaged/disrupted field testing of Arjun, that is a load of BS and some heads should roll at the top brass level to enure that future intentual debacles do not present themselves again. You cannot say that the Arjun was less of a tank when it came to comparing combat capabilities versus a T-90S, the military rigged the tests.

THIS is pure conspiracy. There are no proven sabotages facts - except if you count heavly interested DRDO blames of course. Besides, it IS politicians job to create acceptable, military independent trial commission if they dont trust military generals (this is rather strange anyway).

Either way I have been informed by a reliable source when it comes to Indian military matters that we may see up to 200 Arjuns and that will be it, Indian military will expect everyone to let the Arjun project to go away with the promise of a test on a future tank design by DRDO. You are also wrong to think that India`s top brass is not holding alot of influence on what gets into service.

OF course they have a lot of influence. Just never, never forget this goes both ways - and that T-90 bashing and Arjun sabotage conspiracy theories are very likely come from another, linked to Arjun "success" party. And what this party just deliberately lie to induct Arjun in service regardless of anything.

 

[Chrom]

Chrom the problem is that the military does wield political influence, and tries to control the decision making process.

Would be rather strange if military didnt had influence on what to buy. I meant rather different thing - if from pure political point of view Arjun is preferable - then order MOD to buy it. If there is actually no such strict consensus between Indian elite (i.e. buying only domestical product regardless if it is inferior or much more expensive than foreign alternatives) - than it is actually military staff job to decide which foreign equipment is better for them.

 

[eckherl]

Its not about who influences who.
the ministry makes the decision of what to buy , and in tha past many former airmen blamed the ministry for purchasing the Marut aircraft.
but now the media is very proactive so any wrong decision will affect the votes and a lot of other things ( india being a democracy)

also we must remember the army is largest arm of the military and has the most supporters and sympathizers.
that affects a lot of thing.

the whole deal is way to complicated to explain.

Okay - then the Indian army does have alot of influence on what gets purchased, those same supporters and sympathizers will listen to your armies top staff, with a little palm grease of course.

 

[eckherl]

THIS is pure conspiracy. There are no proven sabotages facts - except if you count heavly interested DRDO blames of course. Besides, it IS politicians job to create acceptable, military independent trial commission if they dont trust military generals (this is rather strange anyway).



OF course they have a lot of influence. Just never, never forget this goes both ways - and that T-90 bashing and Arjun sabotage conspiracy theories are very likely come from another, linked to Arjun "success" party. And what this party just deliberately lie to induct Arjun in service regardless of anything.

Chrom - we can go around and around all day on this subject, right now I will believe DRDO along with some of the other equipment vendors until something else has proven otherwise.

 

[Chrom]

Chrom - we can go around and around all day on this subject, right now I will believe DRDO along with some of the other equipment vendors until something else has proven otherwise.

Ah well, just dont represent it as facts - and we can agree here. It is ok as one of versions. I can well believe in anything - but ONLY if hard facts are present.

 

[Feanor]

Omsktransmash together with its design buraue just merge with UVZ. The goverment allready paid the debts. The intellectual property of all Russian tank developers is united.

Do you have a source? I'm interested to see it.

 

[extern]

Do you have a source? I'm interested to see it.

There were a lot of Russian sources about the tank-industry merging starting from 2007:
http://www.chelt.ru/2008/6-08/malih-608.html
http://www.fis.ru/fis/news/News.html?sp=7637237
http://www.itartass.ur.ru/news/?id=36593
http://www.uralpolit.ru/federal/econom/tek/id_72564.html

 

[Waylander]

Was there much left of their design bureau?
I mean they were dead for some time already.

 

[otester]

I never really followed the Arjun MBT development, so could someone give a brief list of the problem associated with it and its development?