Royal New Zealand Air Force

[simdude97]

im aware of the u.s's contribution to the flklands conflict but as far as i am aware the u.s hasnt been a colony of the united kingdom for several hundred years now

Got it. I did not know there was a time limit and I find it interesting that you would still consider New Zealand, Australia and Canada colonies. I wonder what their citizens would think.

and failing to plan for the future and failing to provide air cover for your country and its resources is a very big risk to take with your countries security.

Well considering the fact that they are still a colony of the UK perhaps they should just demand that the UK protect them as well.

 

[jaffo4011]

Got it. I did not know there was a time limit and I find it interesting that you would still consider New Zealand, Australia and Canada colonies. I wonder what their citizens would think.



Well considering the fact that they are still a colony of the UK perhaps they should just demand that the UK protect them as well.

im just wondering if you have any useful contributions to make to this discussion at all,other than a fascination with british colonies,past and present?

perhaps you could have a look at the question i posed,go away,research it and then come back and post something relevant....alternatively you could go on trying to pick a fight which will get you,i,or both of us in trouble with the moderators.
this is a forum to which is primarily used to further your knowledge in all things defence not have pointless arguements.i would suggest you go elsewhere for those types of activities.

 

[simdude97]

I'm sorry you took offense Jaffa, none meant. As for meaningful contributions, well I would think that if New Zealand is a colony of the UK as you state then they really do not need a military of their own other than perhaps a small territorial militia since they can rely on the UK to provide for their defense. It seems to me then this is exactly why NZ no longer has much of an air force.

 

[stryker NZ]

To house the NH-90's and the A-109s on the Canterbury, I would have thought the rotor blades would have folding blades. Without folding blades, to fit them in the ship's hangar, it will be necessary to remove the blades. Obviously, the air force chose not to bother, but if they are going to be used at sea, surely folding blades would have better.

how easy is it to remove the blades off a chopper the size of the NH90?

 

[recce.k1]

how easy is it to remove the blades off a chopper the size of the NH90?

That appears to be what will happen. The literature that I've seen (eg http://www.beehive.govt.nz/sites/all/files/NH90FAQ31July.doc) states "up to four NH90s will be able to be transported aboard the new Navy, Multi Role Vessel", i.e. "transport" not "operate" (the Seasprite is tasked to "operate" from the MRV. Of course the NH90 could too, under some limitations such as sea state, as long as rotors are bolted/unbolted, probably not a very efficient method though).

Also see the NH90 website "main data" http://www.nhindustries.com/site/FO/scripts/siteFO_contenu.php?arbo=3&noeu_id=10012&lang=EN
and compare the NH90 TTH without folding rotors http://www.nhindustries.com/site/FO...php?lang=EN&noeud_id=10012&arbo=3&page_id=644
with the navalised NFH90 plan showing the folded rotors http://www.nhindustries.com/site/FO...php?lang=EN&noeud_id=10012&arbo=3&page_id=645

I've always thought that perhaps NZ should be purchasing a few NFH90's dedicated to the MRV to allow them to operate from that vessel. The problem then is, is that a basic NFH90 for troop transport or the full deal with search radars and weapon systems etc? It's probably a cost we can't afford until perhaps the Govt thinks about replacing the Seasprites in the future.

 

[StevoJH]

That appears to be what will happen. The literature that I've seen (eg http://www.beehive.govt.nz/sites/all/files/NH90FAQ31July.doc) states "up to four NH90s will be able to be transported aboard the new Navy, Multi Role Vessel", i.e. "transport" not "operate" (the Seasprite is tasked to "operate" from the MRV. Of course the NH90 could too, under some limitations such as sea state, as long as rotors are bolted/unbolted, probably not a very efficient method though).

Also see the NH90 website "main data" http://www.nhindustries.com/site/FO/scripts/siteFO_contenu.php?arbo=3&noeu_id=10012&lang=EN
and compare the NH90 TTH without folding rotors http://www.nhindustries.com/site/FO...php?lang=EN&noeud_id=10012&arbo=3&page_id=644
with the navalised NFH90 plan showing the folded rotors http://www.nhindustries.com/site/FO...php?lang=EN&noeud_id=10012&arbo=3&page_id=645

I've always thought that perhaps NZ should be purchasing a few NFH90's dedicated to the MRV to allow them to operate from that vessel. The problem then is, is that a basic NFH90 for troop transport or the full deal with search radars and weapon systems etc? It's probably a cost we can't afford until perhaps the Govt thinks about replacing the Seasprites in the future.

Correct me if i'm wrong, but arent the Australian MRH-90's getting folding blades, if so, wouldn't it have been smarter to have ordered their birds as part of the Australian order? As was pointed out, NZ is out of fighter range of other countries, you might fit one of these in a C130, but any transport of multiple helo's will have to be by sea.

 

[recce.k1]

As far as I know, the reasons why the NZ Govt didn't buy the Australian built MRH-90's have never been made public. Perhaps it was cost thing, perhaps it was delivery timeframe thing? NZ is a small place, so I don't expect any kiwis in the know to say anything here, maybe some Aussie's in the know may wish to comment? Anyway for all we know NZ may be getting folding rotors and folding tail booms on their NH90's but I don't believe anyone has ever stated this is so etc.

 

[PeterM]

It could have been a timing issue

The Aust Army at one point has a dispute with Australian Aerospace (the (the same company building the MRH90s) over problems with the Tiger attack helicopter aquisition and had gone as far as suspensing payments. I believe this was due to engine issues, but in any case the issue has since been resolved.

If that disruption coincided with the timing of the NZAF procurement, then it would certainly have been a factor.

 

[Sea Toby]

how easy is it to remove the blades off a chopper the size of the NH90?

Here is a video of the icebreaker Aurora Australis with her helicopter receiving rotor blades on her flight deck. Time lapse photography, I haven't a clue how long, but it can be done.

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qGmU06voUzM"]YouTube - South: a voyage to Antarctica[/ame]

 

[stryker NZ]

Here is a video of the icebreaker Aurora Australis with her helicopter receiving rotor blades on her flight deck. Time lapse photography, I haven't a clue how long, but it can be done.

YouTube - South: a voyage to Antarctica

ha for some reason i always thought removing the blades would be more complicated than that. But could you do it when the vessel wasnt at full stop in the middle of an ice field, i would think with even a minor swell that would be somewhat difficult.

(cool video btw)

 

[Sea Toby]

As I said before, I prefer folding blades. I agree, in a swell it would be more difficult. At sea they are worth every dollar.

Being retired Coast Guard, I am fond of icebreakers. Not only in their polar roles, but in colder climates as well. There is a good show called "Breaking Ice" on the web's Coast Guard channel. The first two winters, the new Mackinaw has continued to do her mission at spring breakout the previous Mackinaw had been able to do since 1945.

 

[Gibbo]

NH90 & AW109 - folding blades?

These 2 links from RNZAF website make (1-line) references to both types having folding blades - but I've never seen any 'official' confirmatio of this.

http://www.airforce.mil.nz/about-us/aircraft/a109luh/specs.htm

http://www.airforce.mil.nz/about-us/aircraft/nh90/specs--nh90.htm

 

[recce.k1]

Say, that RNZAF NH90 link has a lot more specific info (eg on comms equipment, features, armament etc) that what was there initially once. Yes it does say "Folding main rotor blades and tail boom" in the features section. Ditto A109 link, that can be read as having folded blades at the very least. So there it is then, they do (but the context of the media report comments on the previous page is perhaps a little confusing. Maybe the Sqn Leader should have said something like "we need a dedicated helicopter hanger large enough to allow the new helos to be seperated from each other with enough room to turn their blades and thus can't be parked up right next to each other like the current Iroquois" etc! Whilst it now appears they can be folded, that's not the way the air force wish to store and maintain them when at base).

 

[Sea Toby]

Finally, this is settled. While I can see the air force preferring not to fold, I see the navy requirements are met. Its obvious, to be useful for the navy, these helicopters should have folding blades. That story on the previous page left much unclear. That story left the impression of the opposite.

 

[mattyem]

air force?

maybe a name change is in order -air service or maybe combine forces with air new zealand?

I think helo's are the way fwd for the RNZAF, in terms or logistics, expenditure and practicle use the NH90's and the light utility and training replacement is a good idea, especially for combined ops with the nzarmy and navy by means of the multi role vessel

 

[Gibbo]

maybe a name change is in order -air service or maybe combine forces with air new zealand?

...no comment!

I think helo's are the way fwd for the RNZAF, in terms or logistics, expenditure and practicle use the NH90's and the light utility and training replacement is a good idea, especially for combined ops with the nzarmy and navy by means of the multi role vessel

Agree - choppers are the way - those AW109's will prove to be popular little beasts and am certain RNZAF will push for additional units after a few years.

National defence spokesman Wayne Mapp did mention to me he felt 10+ was a more practical number but words are cheap & given that the economy is tightening they're likely to be less inclined to spend-up on Defence.

Virtually 'out of the box' the AW109 could provide an excellent light-attack / reconn capabililty well suited to NZDF's requirements. It's a capability that's cheap; deployable; and not too 'nasty' for the more squeamish in govt!

However don't expect this capability from the first 5 airframes! Shall we say a 'longer-term' goal!?!

 

[mattyem]

I think having the AW109 with a light attack role is almost exactally what we need in terms of an air support role for troops on the ground.

Its something that we have been lacking for years! I agree in that I think more numbers of these in the long term would be great investment!

Thye abillity that these are also to provide a recce role is huge aswell, I think this will benefit the NZDF for years to come.

 

[Gibbo]

These 2 links from RNZAF website make (1-line) references to both types having folding blades - but I've never seen any 'official' confirmatio of this.

http://www.airforce.mil.nz/about-us/aircraft/a109luh/specs.htm

http://www.airforce.mil.nz/about-us/aircraft/nh90/specs--nh90.htm

Okay at the same time I posted these links I also shot a breif email off to Defence Minister's office asking about the folding blades - have just today received this reply (quoted here in full)....

(quote)
"Thank you for your email of 24 July 2008, in which you asked if the Royal New Zealand Air Force's new NH90 and Agusta Westland A109 would have folding rotor blades.

The NH90s wil have rotor blades that will be able to be folded manually. While some Agusta Westland A109's have manually folding rotor blades, the aircraft operated by the RNZAF will not. Should the aircraft need to be transported by sea or air, the rotor blades will be removed, which is a relatively easy task"
(unquote)

Well I suggest someone's butt needs kicking given the Govt's paying top dollar yet not getting something as obvious as folding blades, given that all along they've been touted as operable from vessels (although to be fair they've always stated operated from - not embarked).

So just how 'easy' (ie: quick) is it to fit / remove these blades!?!

 

[KH-12]

Okay at the same time I posted these links I also shot a breif email off to Defence Minister's office asking about the folding blades - have just today received this reply (quoted here in full)....

(quote)
"Thank you for your email of 24 July 2008, in which you asked if the Royal New Zealand Air Force's new NH90 and Agusta Westland A109 would have folding rotor blades.

The NH90s wil have rotor blades that will be able to be folded manually. While some Agusta Westland A109's have manually folding rotor blades, the aircraft operated by the RNZAF will not. Should the aircraft need to be transported by sea or air, the rotor blades will be removed, which is a relatively easy task"
(unquote)


Well I suggest someone's butt needs kicking given the Govt's paying top dollar yet not getting something as obvious as folding blades, given that all along they've been touted as operable from vessels (although to be fair they've always stated operated from - not embarked).

So just how 'easy' (ie: quick) is it to fit / remove these blades!?!

You are right it does seem obvious, given that deployment on the MRV (and subsequent storage in the Hangar ) would appear to be very feasible scenarios for the A109. Maybe someone forgot to tick the appropriate box on the order form as the aircraft hav'nt been built yet they (MOD) could go back to AW and ask for them ! Even for storing the aircraft in Land Hangars the desirability of folding blades would seem to be advantageous, maybe they would'nt have to build a new giant hangar.

You are smack on about the top dollar as well.

 

[mattyem]

I dont think there would be any issues regarding time and taking off the blades from an aw109.

I serve aboard HMNZS CABTERBURY and when we embarked the iroquois from the RNZAF, the flyboys on ship made llittle work in taking off the blades and stowing the helo in the hanger.

I dont think there will be any issues at all