Royal New Zealand Air Force

[recce.k1]

That's all good! It's a credit to the NZDF that the FST is able to deploy all in one hit.

However if they had the means to get a containerised system in place, I suspect it would be ready for operation probably quite quickly (I'll assume everything would need to be unfolded/unstrapped and checked within the container - maybe this could easily be done in an hour once power and water are connected etc)?

I'm sure we can all see the potential for other uses, eg containerised networked command and control posts, accomodation, canteen, secure armory etc. No doubt this will all happen in the near future now that the Navy has the MRV or we air-charter etc. Mind you if NZ invested in decent systems interoperable with the ADF for joint operations, maybe we could hitch a ride on their new C17's. However we should be able to do better whilst our economy is in good shape. C'mon NZ pollies, there's a real need for something similar for the RNZAF! After all, both polly parties support the idea of the need to be able to deploy the Army quite quickly (and previous assurances from former defmin Burton on using the MRV to deploy LAV's is questionable if a crises gets out of hand rather quickly eg Timor etc). If NZ soldiers are killed and they had no LAV's at the time, the s**t will be hitting the fan as to why they were parked up in NZ (alas the media headlines will not be good eg "$600m investment good for nothing" or "still en-route on ship - ETA in another 3-4 days" or "MRV still racing back to NZ from EEZ patrol near Chatham Islands to pick up LAV's" etc).

 

[recce.k1]

RNZAF operational aircraft colours?

Received the latest Air Force News in the post today (alas the RNZAF website is only up to the Aug issue as a PDF). Features a nice shot of the A109 on the cover and inside in some sort of two tone brown and green desert camo scheme.

What's with this trend for the RNZAF (and other air forces) to paint their aircraft dark grey over the last several years or so? Although it looks good on the P3 I will admit. It's almost a hark back to the 1960's when the USAF were all grey before that changed in Vietnam etc.

Somehow it doesn't look right on a helicopter to me (eg the current Hueys). Am I just to old fashioned and not up with the times? What's wrong with green or camo painted helos, seeing they spend more time over the land than over the sea?

Anyone for a nice "dark grey" looking A109?

 

[mug]

I agree.

Word on the street is that the Air Force thought they looked too 'Army' and wanted a distinctive colour scheme.

 

[recce.k1]

That's funny the last A4 paint job was dark green overall!

Sounds like the sort of thing a public relations firm would have come up with (the air force must have paid them a few hundred thousand dollars to come up with the new look then! If so, this firm might earn a few more $$$ in another couple of years when it is time to rebrand).

If grey is the in colour I'm suprised the Hueys didn't go grey/green a la RAF European camo scheme (or like one of the later A4 & MB339 3 tone grey/green schemes). Oh well nevermind, lets see what becomes popular in 2010!

 

[RubiconNZ]

Min Def Email Reply Re A109's

Well much to his credit Def Min Goff has replied to a email I sent him soon after the release of the approval of the A109's.

I congratulated him on a good purchase etc
then I asked him about any ECM package or potential armament,
What extras would be included, Including maritime floats,
Deployment outside the NZ, and potential on the purchase of more Airframes.
Excerpts are here:

While I am not at liberty to disclose any details of the military package I can confirm that each A109 will be capable of being fitted with a rescue hoist,e external cargo hook and emergency floats should the task for that flight require them. Appropriate number of rescue hoists, external cargo hooks and emergency floats will be purchased to support this capability.

Five A109's and a flight simulation device will provide the appropriate amount of flying hours to support the envisage requirements of delivering training for pilots and helicopter crewman progressing to the NH90 and Seasprite, as well as providing additional LUH hours to support other agencies. The A109's will generally remain in New Zealand but will provide the capability to deploy for periods up to two months.

The Government has approved the purchase of five A109.

Well no great revelations but I was happy he replied, its good to see they got some of the good options, military fit out will be the next bit to find out I suppose.

Cheers,
Rob

 

[stray_kiwi]

Well much to his credit Def Min Goff has replied to a email I sent him soon after the release of the approval of the A109's.

I congratulated him on a good purchase etc
then I asked him about any ECM package or potential armament,
What extras would be included, Including maritime floats,
Deployment outside the NZ, and potential on the purchase of more Airframes.
Excerpts are here:



Well no great revelations but I was happy he replied, its good to see they got some of the good options, military fit out will be the next bit to find out I suppose.

Cheers,
Rob

All good stuff. I was talking to one of the guys who fly the A119 Rescue helicopter out of New Plymouth, and he reckons the RNZAF have picked "one helluva good chopper". I don't doubt that the Defense Force will have asked for all the bells and whistles, but I look forward to eyeballing one at an Open Day to see what they actually got.

 

[MrConservative]

RNZAF Advanced Training Aircraft Press Releases

Government Gives Green Light For Air Force To Replace Advanced Training Aircraft

Press Release : New Zealand Government 27 November 2007


Cabinet has given the New Zealand Defence Force the green light to begin the acquisition process for advanced pilot training aircraft for the Royal New Zealand Air Force, Defence Minister Phil Goff announced today.

"A tender is being prepared for release next year seeking submissions from industry to supply aircraft, a training package including a simulator and other modern training devices and maintenance and support," Phil Goff said.

"The project aims to find a suitable replacement for the air force's leased 1980s B200 Kingair aircraft. At this stage no decision has been made as to the number and type of aircraft required and the project cost will depend on the option chosen.

"A wide range of potential options for providing the required capability has been considered and the Government has directed that the capability be provided through a training system managed and run by the NZDF rather than through outsourcing training to other military forces or civilian training organisations.

"This will ensure that we continue to provide the right number of pilots, at the right time, trained to the right level and provide a flexible and cost-effective solution, Phil Goff said.

"The Government recognises the need to modernise and upgrade the air force's training capability in order to provide appropriately trained pilots for the new and upgraded aircraft that will enter service with the NZDF in the next few years. These include the upgraded C-130 Hercules, the Boeing 757, the NH90 helicopters and the P-3 Orions."

Today's Advanced Pilot Training Capability announcement follows the recent announcement of the preferred tenderer for the Training and Light Utility Helicopter replacement and a $50 million to $60 million project to upgrade the Anzac frigates, and is another significant step in the Labour-led Government's Defence Long-Term Development Plan to rebuild and re-equip the NZDF, Phil Goff said.

ENDS


28 Nov 2007

Plans Afoot To Re-Commission Aermacchis

ACT New Zealand National Security Spokesman Heather Roy today released new information showing that plans are already well underway to have the de-commissioned Aermacchi jets returned to the air in a training capacity.

"These documents - released under the Official Information Act - are also proof that the long-awaited sale of the Skyhawks and Aermacchis is clearly doomed," Mrs Roy said.

"De-commissioning the Skyhawks and Aermacchis was a blatant Government failure, as was leaving them ‘parked up' for six years. Meanwhile, the Air Force has lost years of valuable training time and experience - Air Force pilots trained in New Zealand since 2002 have no experience with flying jets, setting them apart from military pilots all over the world.

"ACT has campaigned for the Aermacchis to be returned to the Flying Training Squadron for some time. We believe the Aermacchis would enhance the Air Force's capabilities:

* They could be used to contribute to security alliances and the MFAT Mutual Assistance programme

* Training opportunities could be extended to those from other countries who would pay to come and train, contributing to the cost

* They could be used to begin a re-generation of our military jet capability - while this would take six-eight years it would provide an incentive for pilots, instructors and mechanics to remain with the RNZAF and would also attract Kiwis to return to New Zealand

* Provide an opportunity to grow the Territorial Force component of the RNZAF

* Provide an opposing force for New Zealand and international exercises - just as 2 Squadron RNZAF did for the Australian Navy when based in Nowra, New South Wales, and was paid to do so.

"The Aermacchis have huge potential for the New Zealand Defence Force, but this Labour-led Government has done much damage by sitting on its hands for six years - including leaving the Air Force at least $12 million out of pocket by forcing it to use its operational budget to house and maintain the de-commissioned jets.

"As such, it is extremely heartening that the Government has begun to finally see the light and is heeding ACT's call for the Aermacchis to be put into use once more. The damage has been done but, by following ACT's proposals, the Government may be able to start putting things right once more," Mrs Roy said.

ENDS

As a postscript to the above PR's, Ms Roy was on TV3 News tonight. She was waving about documents that the RNZAF had looked into costings regarding advanced flight training in comparing the Beech B200 King Air and the MB339CB. During the news item Defence Minister Mr Goff pointed out that the B200 was two thirds cheaper to operate than the MB339CB. Mr Goff still maintains that the Skyhawk's and the Macchi's will eventually sell and that the Air Force was now investigating an advanced multi-engined trainer. He added that the Air Force had ruled out bringing back the MB339's for advanced pilot training. In the short term it makes sense as it is the B200's that are needing replacement. In the meantime I expect the B200 lease will be extended until July 09 as the options for a multi-engined trainer are considered. In the longer term the political, operational and fiscal reality of the MB339 will have to be faced. The reality of the A4's which completed their last sales demo flight in July 2004, are now being prepared to be parked outside at Woodborne with only limited ablative weather protection, with a veritable flood of GenIII and GenIV combat aircraft up for sale / mothballed worldwide, denial of enduser certs, is a future as instructional airframes or museum pieces.

 

[recce.k1]

Tee hee hee, Defmin Goff has jumped out of the blocks to counter ACT's Heather Roy pretty promptly (wonder if they probably released early reports under the OIA to make Roy look like a schmuk)?? Anyway here's his PR detailing what you just mentioned in your postscript Mr C! I agree with your sentiments, best the Macchis come into the picture later as the B200 replacement needs to be another multi engine type for progressing students to the C130's and P3's etc. (Maybe later = govt fessing up to their sale being a dead duck. Not likely before the 08 election then, eh)?


http://www.beehive.govt.nz/ViewDocument.aspx?DocumentID=31468
28/11/2007
Aermacchis rejected by Defence as advanced pilot training aircraft – Goff

The New Zealand Defence Force has been given the go-ahead to replace its current advanced training aircraft, and will issue a tender early next year, Defence Minister Phil Goff said today.

“The NZDF looked at the possibility of the Aermacchis being used to replace the King Air advanced pilot training aircraft during the evaluation stage, but ruled it out,” Phil Goff said.

“The Aermacchis were rejected as an option because they are not suitable for providing full training capabilities necessary for the Royal New Zealand Air Force’s upgraded C130 Hercules, P3 Orions and 757s and the new helicopter fleets.

“Another factor was the cost of the package of training aircraft that would have included the Aermacchis, which was three times the operating cost of purpose-specific aircraft.

“It was prudent for the NZDF to consider the Aermacchis, but this does not signal a change in status in the sale of the Skyhawks and the Aermacchis. The sale process to a United States purchaser remains in play, despite frustrations in New Zealand over the delays caused by the US system. The US Government has to ratify any sale of Skyhawk aircraft under the original agreement to purchase military aircraft from that country.”

 

[recce.k1]

Goff mulled reviving Aermacchis

Goff mulled reviving Aermacchis

MARTIN KAY - The Dominion Post | Thursday, 29 November 2007
http://www.stuff.co.nz/dominionpost/4293266a23917.html

Defence Minister Phil Goff asked air force chiefs to consider using the mothballed Aermacchi jets for pilot training amid doubts about the $155 million sale of the scrapped combat wing.

Papers ACT national security spokeswoman Heather Roy has obtained show air force commander Vice-Marshal Graham Lintott ordered investigations into possibly using the Aermacchis for advanced training.

A spokesman for Mr Goff said he suggested the idea, but it did not indicate selling the 17 Aermacchis and 17 Skyhawk fighter-bombers was off, or that the air force wanted the strike wing reinstated.

Though the idea has been shelved in favour of buying new planes to replace the King Airs now used for advanced training, the papers show detailed plans were drawn up in July and August.

These included using nine Aermacchis for training an original complement of 16 pilots a year - a figure increased to 20 as more details were fleshed out. They would be used in conjunction with three King Airs.

Mrs Roy said that would mean all 17 Aermacchis would be used when spares, planes to train mechanics and instructors, and post-graduate training were included.

The air force also closely looked at what would be needed to reintroduce the jets, including whether they would need combat display units and weapons systems.

It said the plans were "prudent" in case the sale of the Aermacchis and Skyhawks to United States pilot training company Tactical Air Services fell through. The sale has been held up by the US Government, which originally sold the Skyhawks to New Zealand and which must approve their resale.

It has cost more than $8 million to maintain them all since the strike wing was canned in 2002.

The papers obtained by Mrs Roy show air force chiefs believed using the Aermacchis would boost recruitment and retention. "There is great enthusiasm for the concept from all personnel areas at the working level," one report says.

But Mr Goff said last night that the idea was dropped as it did not fit the new shape of the air force.

"The Aermacchis were rejected as an option because they are not suitable for providing full training capabilities necessary for the Royal New Zealand Air Force's upgraded C130 Hercules, P3 Orions and 757s, and the new helicopter fleets."

The cost of including the Aermacchis in the training fleet would have been three times as much as purpose-specific planes, but it had been right to consider it.

A tender to replace the King Airs would be issued next year.

ENDS

* * * * * * * * * * * * *
Well the experts, the RNZAF that is, noted that the "Aermacchis would boost recruitment and retention". Hopefully Cabinet will acknowledge this fact as the NZDF recruitment and retention problems become worse and reinstate the Aermacchi's for reasons other than as a simple B200 replacement. I commend Goff and Roy for "trying" but it looks like Goff doesn't have the numbers in Cabinet (and won't after the recent reschuffle) to pull it off yet. Unfortunate as it would have been timely to tie in the Aermacchi's in addition to the B200 replacement programme (which is what the report above states as what the RNZAF wanted to do - the Aermacchi's "would be used in conjunction with three King Airs". All this subsequent talk of the Aermacchi's replacing the B200's, and thus would not be appropriate, is "spin").

Would have done wonders for the RNZAF recruiting, upskilling ground crew and pilot skillsets let alone the training opportunities for the Army and Navy. Bad move Cabinet, as the Govt will continue to be attacked by opposition parties and in media commentary right up to the next election on the mothballed ACF. The issue won't go away and reactivating the Aermacchi's would have taken the heat out of the non-sale of the Skyhawks. A fine example of ideology v being pragmatic.

 

[MrConservative]

Thats very interesting Recce. In the meantime we will continue to have an Army without realistic strike support training. And continue to have to pay Air Affairs Ltd to work up the Naval vessels. That is a task for the Macchi's. Granted not the perfect solution but better than nothing. Reading the text the Macchi's were rejected on the multi-engine training role. It doesn't mean that an Army/Navy role will not be considered for some of them to be introduced at a later date .... (about the time of an election campaign??) On some good news John Key has announced as policy that if in power next year Whenuapei will stay as a military base.

Yes, nice for Goff for trying and for Roy getting the info out there under the OIA. The tender will be issued next year for the B200 replacement. I notice that with talk of a simulator it could portend to a slightly larger aircraft with a greater utility than just B200/350's.

 

[stray_kiwi]

Yes, nice for Goff for trying and for Roy getting the info out there under the OIA. The tender will be issued next year for the B200 replacement. I notice that with talk of a simulator it could portend to a slightly larger aircraft with a greater utility than just B200/350's.

So, something the size of a Beech 1900D or a Bombadier Q300? It will be very interesting indeed to see the details of that tender.

 

[recce.k1]

Yeah, the assumed good news I suppose is that a larger aircraft & simulator is preferred by the RNZAF and more or less has Govt approval e.g. not a B200/B350 type. So I guess the assumption again is that Goff is trying to do his best for the RNZAF despite the Cabinet being stacked against him i.e. he is trying to get them much more capable aircraft and probably more multi-role). (Probably like the RNZAF about to get A109LUH's rather than something else cheaper and simpler like the second hand ex-Singaporean Squirrel possibility from 2-3 years ago).

So perhaps this all could tie into the medium range patrol aircraft type for whenever that proceedes. Makes sense then to have a simulator etc. It is good news for the RNZAF in respect to multi engine training and other possibilities etc.

Agree the Aermacchi reactivation isn't necessarily dead, it's just that it couldn't be done at this point in time. It will make 2008 an interesting year - there might be people in the Cabinet irritated that they perceive they are damned if they do or damned if they don't whatever they decide to do with the Aermacchi's (and Skyhawks). I don't see it like that, they will bury the albatros hanging around their neck if they reactivate the Aermacchi's. It would be a good compromise to the drawn out and embarrasing saga of not gaining US State Department approval for the sale, let alone for the other reasons we've mentioned here etc. Trouble is some ideological Cabinet types will resist reactivation on principle. The ship might be sinking but the band is playing on!

 

[recce.k1]

Here's another article on the advanced pilot training aircraft.

Ohakea to get new training aircraft
By CHRISTIAN BONNEVIE - Manawatu Standard | Thursday, 29 November 2007
http://stuff.co.nz/manawatustandard/4297025a6502.html

The Government has given the green light for the Air Force to replace its current fleet of advanced pilot training aircraft based at Ohakea.

A tender is being prepared for release next year seeking submissions to supply aircraft, a training package - including a simulator - maintenance and support that will replace the Beechcraft B200 King Air twin-engine planes, currently leased from Pacific Aeromotive. The move is necessary for Air Force pilots to gain the training required to operate the upgraded C130 Hercules, P3 Orion and new Boeing 757 aircraft.

Squadron Leader Glenn Davis said it was hoped the new aircraft would reach New Zealand shores by July 2009.

The lease on the five King Airs is due to expire next year, but an extension would likely be sought.

The specifications for the new planes included that they be a modern, light-weight, twin-engine aircraft, Sq Ldr Davis said. "They'll be similar to the King Air but at the higher level required for our training."

How many aircraft will be sought and the cost involved would emerge during the tendering process, he said.

Defence Minister Phil Goff said the project was designed to ensure the Air Force continued to provide the right number of pilots, at the right time, trained to the right level.

"A wide range of potential options for providing the required capability has been considered and the Government has directed that the capability be provided through a training system managed and run by the NZDF rather than through outsourcing training to other military forces or civilian training organisations."

The decision follows the recent announcement of Agusta-Westland as the preferred tenderer for the supply of training light-utility helicopters and the $50 million project to upgrade the Anzac frigates.

 

[recce.k1]

Ohakea redevelopment 1st stage - large helicopter hanger and air-movements terminal

Ohakea contract yet to be finalised
By CHRISTIAN BONNEVIE - Manawatu Standard | Friday, 21 December 2007
http://www.stuff.co.nz/manawatustandard/4332537a6502.html

The Air Force is tight-lipped on who could benefit from more than $100 million in Government funding for the first stage of developments at Ohakea.
The deadline for engineering and architecture consultants to submit plans for the proposed construction of a helicopter hangar at the State Highway 1 base passed more than a month ago.

Defence Minister Phil Goff announced yesterday $129 million would be pumped into building the facility, funding further maintenance and improving base security.

The hangar is likely to occupy the site occupied by the Air Force Museum, which closed in April.

It is planned to cover a gross floor area of 11,000 square metres and include space for 13 helicopters, office accommodation, a simulator building and storage. Construction is expected to start next year.

Air Force spokesman Squadron Leader Glenn Davis said he was not aware of any decisions made on the design or who will be charged with constructing the hangar.

"Obviously this is big news for the Air Force and the region. There's a lot of interest in it from all sides and no doubt we will confirm some key details soon."

Mr Goff said the project would give the region a "real boost" to businesses and employment.

Two new fleets of helicopters, the NH90 and A109, were to arrive in 2010, representing an investment of about $900m, he said.

"In addition, it will allow the construction of a new and much- needed air-movements terminal for passengers and cargo, including offices for New Zealand Customs, Biosecurity and Immigration.

"These are necessary for the role Ohakea plays as an emergency airport should North Island airports be closed to international air traffic."

Mr Goff said the Air Force had also been asked to report on time frames for shifting operations from Whenuapai to Ohakea between 2014 and 2018.

 

[MrConservative]

Thanks for posting both those articles Recce. A belated Happy New Year to you.

Firstly lets hope that no contract will be signed regarding the B200 replacement until after October this year because I fear that we will otherwise end up with three or four B350's purely based on the rational that they are significantly cheaper than say a Q300MM. The B350 is a fine aircraft but we really miss the utility of what the Andover offered. Go back to the 80's and 90's when we had 3 Golden Eagles for multi-engined training, and 10 Andovers and 3 Friendships for light transport, VIP and coastal patrol. We have definately gone backwards in terms of capability in the lighter end of our RNZAF fixed wing fleet since those days.

My preference is for advanced flight training to be done by the Macchi. Following that pilots then posted to their operational squadrons which would include 42 sqd with six or so Q300MM aircraft plus a simulator. 42 Sqd would be tasked with not only the outputs it can provide operationally from the Q300MM but also as a conversion squadron for the heavier P-3's, 757's and C-130's.

Space for 13 helicopters? Couldn't they make the hanger a little bigger. After all a future Govt might actually find it prudent to have at least a few more. I also find it hilarious that 16 year old B757 aircraft that have been in RNZAF service for nearly 5 years are still described as new!! On that basis half of the Macchi fleet are newer.

 

[kato]

I also find it hilarious that 16 year old B757 aircraft that have been in RNZAF service for nearly 5 years are still described as new!! On that basis half of the Macchi fleet are newer.

In transports, anything newer than 20 years is "new". 30 years is "normal", 40 years is "old", 50 years is "obsolete".

 

[MrConservative]

In transports, anything newer than 20 years is "new". 30 years is "normal", 40 years is "old", 50 years is "obsolete".

Anything less than 5 years is new. Anything less than say 15 to 20 years is recent. At 16 years old the Kiwi B757's are around the average age for these aircraft. Boeings design life-cycle objective for the 757 was 40 years. These are not purpose built military transports like the C-17 or C-130. The aircraft in particular spent the first 12 years of their life doing short to medium passenger haul in Europe. For these reasons it is being economical with the truth for the minister to suggest that the Kiwi 757's are new. If the you were to translate them into a human life span they are as middle aged as me.

 

[Stuart Mackey]

Anything less than 5 years is new. Anything less than say 15 to 20 years is recent. At 16 years old the Kiwi B757's are around the average age for these aircraft. Boeings design life-cycle objective for the 757 was 40 years. These are not purpose built military transports like the C-17 or C-130. The aircraft in particular spent the first 12 years of their life doing short to medium passenger haul in Europe. For these reasons it is being economical with the truth for the minister to suggest that the Kiwi 757's are new. If the you were to translate them into a human life span they are as middle aged as me.

And they are not used as much as they should be to keep them 'fit'. They spend a lot of time on the tarmac and when they do get used they only fly a handfull of people around mainly to keep the pilots hours up and as a result one had a very expensive engine failure a year or so ago. Of course they could have leased the engines from Rolls-Royce and let them keep them reliable, as a lot of airlines do, but.... :unknown
The principle reason they got them was the Great Leader, Helen, applied pressure because she wanted a reliable transport for herself. Military utiity was secondary.

 

[recce.k1]

Thanks for posting both those articles Recce. A belated Happy New Year to you.

Firstly lets hope that no contract will be signed regarding the B200 replacement until after October this year because I fear that we will otherwise end up with three or four B350's purely based on the rational that they are significantly cheaper than say a Q300MM. The B350 is a fine aircraft but we really miss the utility of what the Andover offered. Go back to the 80's and 90's when we had 3 Golden Eagles for multi-engined training, and 10 Andovers and 3 Friendships for light transport, VIP and coastal patrol. We have definately gone backwards in terms of capability in the lighter end of our RNZAF fixed wing fleet since those days.

My preference is for advanced flight training to be done by the Macchi. Following that pilots then posted to their operational squadrons which would include 42 sqd with six or so Q300MM aircraft plus a simulator. 42 Sqd would be tasked with not only the outputs it can provide operationally from the Q300MM but also as a conversion squadron for the heavier P-3's, 757's and C-130's.

Space for 13 helicopters? Couldn't they make the hanger a little bigger. After all a future Govt might actually find it prudent to have at least a few more. I also find it hilarious that 16 year old B757 aircraft that have been in RNZAF service for nearly 5 years are still described as new!! On that basis half of the Macchi fleet are newer.

No problemo! Whilst the main centre newspapers originally ran these articles, the provincial papers provided a little more detail hence I posted them (eg advanced training aircraft ETA July 2009 & details on helo hanger etc).

I couldn't agree more with your sentiments about the advanced training aircraft situation. With a bit of vision (and agreement from other Govt Dept "users" eg Customs, Police and MAF etc - eg this "whole of govt" approach), the RNZAF should be making a case for the Q300 etc. Perhaps the problem is, unfortunately there is no pre-defined Govt case for a medium range troop transporter in the LTDP, hence even if the RNZAF/NZDF/MOD got the other govt agencies on board, it may still be harder to justify the larger aircraft over the B350 which will handle the pilot training just fine, VIP and possibly basic coastal patrol ok (seeing that the troop transport requirement currently does not apply).

Or it could be that there is still no agreement on the Coastal Patrol between defence and the other Govt agencies, hence best to replace the B200's with B350's and sort out Q300 type options later (and maybe get medium range troop transport into the next LTDP update)? Although it would seem odd after all these years there is no agreement etc!

So maybe Q300's or similar could come into the picture at a later date etc?

Regarding the helo hanger, someone probably in the know in the Cambridge Wings forum pages (see postwar section and first stage of ohakea development thread) posted something about the helos would have their own bays (large enough for each helo to turn their rotors and for fire containment reasons etc) and a dedicated phase bay for deeper maintenance etc. Sounds great, but like you and others, wonder about there being space for only 13 helos. I realise that Defence has to follow best accounting and audit practice (eg if only 13 helos are to be bought then space for 13 helos is all that is required etc etc, not like the old days) but sometimes in cases like this a little bit of extra space wouldn't be a bad idea, who's to say what the future holds in terms of RNZAF helo numbers? Hopefully if the hanger is built for 13 helos, the design would allow outward expansion if helo numbers increase in the future.

Actually, there's something odd about this article, which needs clarifying. If the Govt really is intending to shift Whenuapai operations to Ohakea, wouldn't the hanger be designed to hold 18 helos (13 new helos + 5 Seasprites)! Heh heh

 

[recce.k1]

Progress on C130/757/P3 upgrade projects

Air force revamp delayed

HANK SCHOUTEN - The Dominion Post | Thursday, 13 March 2008

http://www.stuff.co.nz/dominionpost/4436771a6479.html

Three major projects to upgrade the air force's transport and surveillance aircraft at a cost of nearly $700 million have been delayed.

Air force chief Graham Lintott said the first of its five Hercules was not expected back from a rebuild in Canada until July, about six months behind the original schedule.

Two air force Boeing 757 transport aircraft, which are having large cargo doors fitted in the United States, also will not be back till about the middle of the year.

And the first of its six P3 Orions, which are being fitted with new radar and other sensor systems, will not be back from the US till January next year, eight months later than originally planned.

Air Vice-Marshal Lintott said the $246 million project to extend the life of the C-130 Hercules was going well. Ground testing of the first upgraded aircraft had started and air crew were preparing for test flights.

A second Hercules is also being overhauled in Canada, and work on the other three will be done by Safe Air at Woodbourne near Christchurch. The project is expected to be completed in 2010.

The Boeing 757s have been out of service since last year when they were sent to Mobile, Alabama, for modifications costing $81 million.

Fitting cargo doors so they can be used as either passenger or transport craft was not a simple project.

"Basically it's cutting the aircraft in half and putting a big door in it, there are lots of structural issues," said Air Vice-Marshal Lintott. "We found some corrosion in places we hadn't expected, so that was additional work that had to be done."

The 757s were also being fitted with a sophisticated new military satellite communication system and the engines were also being done up.

Acceptance tests had not yet started and "we're assuming there won't be any major problems with it".

"Of course, both aircraft have been in the hangar for months and there will always be little issues with other systems that haven't been operating for so long." The planes were scheduled to return in June.

The $353 million project to upgrade the Orions had been delayed because of the complexity and scope of work required to replace all their avionics, radar, sensors and communications systems.

Work on the first aircraft is being done in Greenville, Texas, and the rest are to be given similar upgrades by Safe Air in Blenheim.

"It's a massive project, basically pulling all systems out of it and replacing it with state-of-the-art stuff."

The result would be "a top of the line intelligence, surveillance and reconnaissance system".