Marine Nationale (French Navy)

[fakh90]

I found this rather newish article from meretmarine.com. I hope this hasn't been posted here before. The article is about the the utilisation of a single tower/mast for FREDA.


http://www.meretmarine.com/a...7745

 

[Spacearrow99]

If the La Fayettes become 1st rank frigates, will their hull numbers get changed from "F###" to "D###" ?? All 1st rank frigates have DDG classifications right? I still find it hard to believe that the La Fayettes are going to be classified as 1st rank frigates,though, even with the VL Aster & ASM system update possibility in the future .

The white paper didn't explicitly mention how many FREMMs are going to be built.

With 11 FREMMs (supposedly) & 2 Horizons, France still needs another 5 vessels. Is it likely that the 5 vessels would be a new class of ship, a smaller and less expensive version of FREMM? FM400 maybe?

Or, would it be 16 FREMMs ( including FREDA) and 2 Horizons ??? With prolonged project length/ delays , of course.

The MN says that the Gowinds and the FM400 are to expensive to be alternates to the FREMM. Who knows how many FREMM will be built at this point? DCNS had alot riding on the FREMM program; they may have to cut many jobs because of the FREMM cuts.

The MN has talked about sublimenting the FREMM with cheap "Super Floreals".

 

[fakh90]

Btw has the MN confirmed that the FLFs ( La Fayettes) are going to become 1st rank frigates?

Several sites (meretmarine & some blogs) said that the FLFs are going to become 1st rank frigates. However, I have no clue if the information comes from an explicit mention by MN itself or if it's just a logical assumption made from the "18 1st line frigates" statement on the Livre Blanc.

 

[Spacearrow99]

Btw has the MN confirmed that the FLFs ( La Fayettes) are going to become 1st rank frigates?

Several sites (meretmarine & some blogs) said that the FLFs are going to become 1st rank frigates. However, I have no clue if the information comes from an explicit mention by MN itself or if it's just a logical assumption made from the "18 1st line frigates" statement on the Livre Blanc.

No, the MN has not confirmed the possible future 1st rank designation of the La Fayettes. Senior leaders of the French military are not happy about the new White Paper. Here is my translation of a editorial letter, by many senior French officiers published on June 19, by Le Figaro. "The model analysis presented by the White Paper is deficient in our view and, further, marked by a certain amateurism. The White Paper suffers from a quadruple inconsistency."

 

[Sea Toby]

If the La Fayettes become 1st rank frigates, will their hull numbers get changed from "F###" to "D###" ?? All 1st rank frigates have DDG classifications right? I still find it hard to believe that the La Fayettes are going to be classified as 1st rank frigates,though, even with the VL Aster & ASM system update possibility in the future .

The white paper didn't explicitly mention how many FREMMs are going to be built.

With 11 FREMMs (supposedly) & 2 Horizons, France still needs another 5 vessels. Is it likely that the 5 vessels would be a new class of ship, a smaller and less expensive version of FREMM? FM400 maybe?

Or, would it be 16 FREMMs ( including FREDA) and 2 Horizons ??? With prolonged project length/ delays , of course.

As I see the French fleet, the two Forbins destroyers replaced the two Suffrens, the two FREDAs should replace the two Cassards, and ten FREEMs should replace the three Tourvilles and seven Georges Leygues. I do not see the need for more than 12 FREDAs or FREEMs.

Another OPV class similar to the Floreals should be able to replace the remaining D'Estienne d'Orves class, I do not consider them as front line escorts.

 

[swerve]

No, the A69s are definitely not first line escorts. The MN calls them "avisos", which is nowadays translated as sloop, & that sounds about right. They're basically OPVs, & the MN would probably be content with an OPV-type replacement - though I would think larger.

 

[Spacearrow99]

No, the A69s are definitely not first line escorts. The MN calls them "avisos", which is nowadays translated as sloop, & that sounds about right. They're basically OPVs, & the MN would probably be content with an OPV-type replacement - though I would think larger.

The MN senoir leaders want the rest of their FREMM, but they've talked about a larger of the Floreal as replacements for the avisos.

The Sarkozy government's findings in the white paper for the MN are amatuerish. They will make the La Fayettes 1st rank frigates, but the French MoD want state when or if the La Fayettes will recieve AAW and/or ASW upgrades. The Sarkozy government also didn't address the issue, of replacements for the JdA or Durance class AORs. Plus, the Scalp Naval program has been hit with massive cuts, and now each missile will have a much higher procurement cost. I just have to mention the delay of ordering of the PA2.

 

[fakh90]

I was under the the impression that the Sarko's admistration is still unsure about what the 18 first rank escorts will consist of. That's why the breakdown of the 18 future escorts was not included in the white paper.

And no, no, no, even with AAW Aster 15, some ASW torpedo and sonar update, the La Fayettes are barely 1st rank frigates/DDG... It's just silly to change their designation from an FLF to a 1st rank frigates/DDG....

As I see the French fleet, the two Forbins destroyers replaced the two Suffrens, the two FREDAs should replace the two Cassards, and ten FREEMs should replace the three Tourvilles and seven Georges Leygues. I do not see the need for more than 12 FREDAs or FREEMs.

Another OPV class similar to the Floreals should be able to replace the remaining D'Estienne d'Orves class, I do not consider them as front line escorts.

12 FREMMs& FREDAs are enough with only 1 aircraft carrier. But, If the PA2 is going to get built, then more escorts are needed. Not to mention that 2 more Mistral Class LHDs are going to be ordered, they will need escorts as well...

 

[Spacearrow99]

I was under the the impression that the Sarko's admistration is still unsure about what the 18 first rank escorts will consist of. That's why the breakdown of the 18 future escorts was not included in the white paper.

And no, no, no, even with AAW Aster 15, some ASW torpedo and sonar update, the La Fayettes are barely 1st rank frigates/DDG... It's just silly to change their designation from an FLF to a 1st rank frigates/DDG....


12 FREMMs& FREDAs are enough with only 1 aircraft carrier. But, If the PA2 is going to get built, then more escorts are needed. Not to mention that 2 more Mistral Class LHDs are going to be ordered, they will need escorts as well...

The La Fayettes could be very ASW frigates will the addition of towed sonar. The La Fayettes upgrades would give the MN 11 ASW surface escorts. The La Fayettes don't need to have more Asters because they would be in a networked taskforce.


The FOST, 1 or 2 carrier groups, and amphibious groups will need 13 to 14 surface escorts. The two new Mistrals will be probably assigned to the amphibious groups of the other Mistrals. The MN would've the suface escorts for operations, but just barely.

 

[youpii]

The La Fayettes could be very ASW frigates will the addition of towed sonar. The La Fayettes upgrades would give the MN 11 ASW surface escorts. The La Fayettes don't need to have more Asters because they would be in a networked taskforce.


The FOST, 1 or 2 carrier groups, and amphibious groups will need 13 to 14 surface escorts. The two new Mistrals will be probably assigned to the amphibious groups of the other Mistrals. The MN would've the suface escorts for operations, but just barely.

The Lafayette don't have any Aster now, only old Crotale. That's very underpowered for "1st level frigates". Do they have room for towed sonar?

Until now, MN seems to often operate their amphibious ships as standalone ships outside amphibious groups.

 

[Sea Toby]

I was under the the impression that the Sarko's admistration is still unsure about what the 18 first rank escorts will consist of. That's why the breakdown of the 18 future escorts was not included in the white paper.

And no, no, no, even with AAW Aster 15, some ASW torpedo and sonar update, the La Fayettes are barely 1st rank frigates/DDG... It's just silly to change their designation from an FLF to a 1st rank frigates/DDG....





12 FREMMs& FREDAs are enough with only 1 aircraft carrier. But, If the PA2 is going to get built, then more escorts are needed. Not to mention that 2 more Mistral Class LHDs are going to be ordered, they will need escorts as well...

The French didn't have any more escorts when they did have two carriers. Where and when did 18 become important. I doubt seriously France would ever ever need to escort more than one opposed landing at a time, the number of escorts needed to escort a carrier task group and/or a amphibious task group remains the same whether its one carrier or two, or one LHD or two. In an unopposed landing during a humanitarian mission I doubt whether the LHD will require a large fleet of escorts, possibly just one or two ships if necessary. I presume the Forbins will escort the carriers, and the FREDAs will escort the LHDs.

 

[Spacearrow99]

The Lafayette don't have any Aster now, only old Crotale. That's very underpowered for "1st level frigates". Do they have room for towed sonar?

Until now, MN seems to often operate their amphibious ships as standalone ships outside amphibious groups.

We were talking about the La Fayettes, after their possible AAW and ASW upgrades. And yes, they have the room for towed sonar.

They want operate as standalone ships when the two new Mistrals are commissioned. The MN want have the proper number of surface escorts to conduct standalone missions. The MN would need 2 extra AAW FFG/DDGs, and atleast a total 16 AAW and ASW capable escorts to conduct their operations.

The MN could still operate their amphibious ships as standalone ships, when two new Mistral enter service, if they make a few changes two their 18 frigate plan. The two ordered FREMM LA, should be modeled after the Greek FREMM proposal. The Greek FREEM would have 16 A50 and 16 A70 vls, along with 24 A35 vls for VL MICA. This idea would give the MN two extra AAW FFG/DDGs. We have already talked about possible upgrades of the La Fayettes.

 

[fakh90]

The MN could still operate their amphibious ships as standalone ships, when two new Mistral enter service, if they make a few changes two their 18 frigate plan. The two ordered FREMM LA, should be modeled after the Greek FREMM proposal. The Greek FREEM would have 16 A50 and 16 A70 vls, along with 24 A35 vls for VL MICA. This idea would give the MN two extra AAW FFG/DDGs. We have already talked about possible upgrades of the La Fayettes.

Spacearrow99, i think it would be good if FREDA is also modeled after the greek version of FREMM. With a total of 32 cells - fore A50/A70 vls, the MN could load up to 32 Aster 15, or a combination of aster 15& aster 30. Also, the 24 cells VL Mica addition would strengthen their self defence capability. Btw, has the greek FREMM design been finalized? Or is it still on the drawing board?

About the AVT Fremm, i'm a bit sceptical about their land attack capability, with only a maximum number of 16 Scalp Naval missiles per ship. More like a general purpose ship with some land attack capability.

If the La Fayettes become 1st rank frigates, then would the French order more ships to replace their job as FLF? I assume that the so-called Super Floreal would replace both the A69 Avisos and the FLF..

 

[Spacearrow99]

Spacearrow99, i think it would be good if FREDA is also modeled after the greek version of FREMM. The With a total of 32 cells - fore A50/A70 vls, the MN could load up to 32 Aster 15, or a combination of aster 15& aster 30. Also, the 24 cells VL Mica addition would strengthen their self defence capability. Btw, has the greek FREMM design been finalized? Or is it still on the drawing board?

About the AVT Fremm, i'm a bit sceptical about their land attack capability, with only a maximum number of 16 Scalp Naval missiles per ship. More like a general purpose ship with some land attack capability.

If the FLFs become 1st rank frigates, then would the French order more ships to replace their job as FLF? I assume that the so-called Super Floreal would replace both the A69 Avisos and the FLF..

The Greek Fremm design is still on the drawing board. I forget that the AVT FREMM can also be armed with 32 A70 launchers. I think the MN should build at least 2 FREDAs with 32 A70 vls and 24 A35 vls. I would hope that the MN use this configuration for the ATV FREMM. Though, they wouldn't be AAW FFGs; the ATV FREMM would've very good land attack and self defense capabilities.

The La Fayettes will atleast become 1st rank frigates in name, but they might not get AAW and/or ASW Systems upgrades. The "Super Floreal" would just be replacements for the avisos.

 

[fakh90]

A June article from meretmarine, which link i posted above ( the first post of this page) talks about the possibility of utilizing a single tower/mast for FREDA..

"A cette occasion, DCNS pourrait proposer à la marine d'intégrer une mâture unique sur les FREDA. Cet équipement avait été initialement envisagé pour les 8 premières FREMM, commandées en fin 2005. Mais, en raison d'un problème technique, DCNS et Thales avaient renoncé à proposer cette solution, quelques mois avant la signature du contrat. La marine n'était, de toute façon, pas demandeuse, la version à deux mâts de la frégate répondant déjà aux spécifications souhaitées. Trois ans plus tard, les industriels auraient solutionné les obstacles rencontrés en 2005. Concept novateur, la mâture unique vise à regrouper sur un seul mât les équipements électroniques du navire. Cette disposition permet de faciliter la cohabitation de systèmes toujours plus nombreux et susceptibles de se perturber entre eux. La mâture unique libère aussi de la place sur le navire pour y intégrer des capteurs supplémentaires. Cet espace disponible doit permettre de répondre aux évolutions technologiques, comme le développement des communications ou la mise en oeuvre de drones. L'autre avantage est la vision panoramique, le radar pouvant assurer une détection à 360 degrés, très utile contre les menaces asymétriques, les attaques rasantes et celle venant de l'arrière. La mâture unique peut abriter un radar fixe, avec des antennes planes et fixes, ou un radar tournant, comme ce fut le cas pour les FREMM en 2005 (Herakles de Thales). Dans ce cas, le radar est disposé dans le « cône », sous un masque transparent radio-électriquement et mécaniquement résistant, non seulement aux mouvements de la structure, mais aussi aux agressions de combat, comme les explosions sous-marines. L'une des principales difficultés consiste à alimenter les équipements situés dans les étages supérieurs, sans que les câbles ne gênent la vision du radar. Un système de goulottes suffisamment fines a donc été imaginé par DCNS, qui a d'ailleurs déposé un brevet sur le moyen d'obtenir une vision à 360°."


The single mast would save space which can be used to incorporate additional sensors. If this design is used for FREDA, who knows, maybe there would be enough space for installing a long range search radar such as SMART-L/S1850 ( money and weight permitting, of course).

 

[youpii]

A June article from meretmarine, which link i posted above ( the first post of this page) talks about the possibility of utilizing a single tower/mast for FREDA..

The single mast would save space which can be used to incorporate additional sensors. If this design is used for FREDA, who knows, maybe there would be enough space for installing a long range search radar such as SMART-L/S1850 ( money and weight permitting, of course).

Single mast & new radar would mean a major redesign and increase risks & costs.

 

[StevoJH]

Single mast & new radar would mean a major redesign and increase risks & costs.

Yup, it'd probably just be cheaper to buy another pair of Horizon class if they were going to go that route. The developmental costs have already been paid and the shipyard has already built two of them, even if it was a couple of years ago now.

 

[Spacearrow99]

Here is a link to meretmarine article about DCNS's Gowind corvettes.

http://www.meretmarine.com/article.cfm?id=108303

There're four versions of the Gowinds now. The four model is 1200 tons. all the Gowinds will be armed with 76mm, VL Mica, and 8 Exocet MM40. The originial plan, of installing gas turbine propulsion systems on all the Gowind types, has been abandoned. All the Gowind types will have diesel-electric propulsion systems.

Meretmarine also has and article about the FM 400 with pictures.

http://www.meretmarine.com/article.cfm?id=108302

The FM 400 will come in 4 versions a base version, AAW, ASW, and LA. There /standard armament will be a 76 mm, 8 Excocet MM40, and 8-12 VL anti-aircraft missiles. The FM 400 sensors are within a single tower. They have launch and recovery systems for RIBs at the stern on the ships. One medium helicopter or two light heliocopters can be carried. The FM 400 will also carry UAVs, USVs, and possibly AUVs.

The ASW FM 400 has an active-passive towed sonar and torpedo launchers.
The AAW version has a longer longer range 3D radar mounted on top of the heliocopter hangar. This version carries 12-24 Aster 15 missiles. The LA version replaces the 76mm with a 127mm gun, and it has increased carrying capacity for special operation forces. The FM400 will have diesel-electric propulsion system, along with two shafts. There maximum speed will be 25 to 28 knots.



Apparently, the LA FREMM version has been cancelled. The 9 ASW FREMM recommended by the White Paper will carry Scalp Naval.

 

[youpii]

I think Bulgaria is buying some GoWind

Any customer for FM400?

Who made the Floreals? Did they show any design for the "Super Floreal"?

 

[kato]

Who made the Floreals? Did they show any design for the "Super Floreal"?

Chantiers de l'Atlantique à Saint Nazaire (aka Aker Yards Saint Nazaire nowadays), with DCN for military electronics and weapons outfit.

I'm not aware of any design for the "Super Floreal".