Marine Nationale (French Navy)

swerve

Super Moderator
Mer et Marine article from today: http://www.meretmarine.com/article.cfm?id=107930

Gowind for replacement of A69 is ruled out, FM400 highly unlikely for the same reason - cost. A "Super Floreal" is envisioned by some for this (read: commercial standard OPV with corvette armament).
"Pour succéder aux « A69 », la piste des corvettes Gowind de DCNS serait d'ores et déjà exclue, ces navires étant considérés comme trop onéreux. On imagine qu'il en sera de même pour la nouvelle frégate de l'industriel, la FM400, bâtiment de 4000 tonnes destiné à renouveler la famille La Fayette.
Les marins seraient donc à la recherche d'un bâtiment « hauturier, robuste, rustique et pas cher ». La possibilité présentée par certains constructeurs d'adapter une coque dérivée des navires offshores ne suscite guère d'enthousiasme. « Ce qu'il faut c'est un navire de guerre, avec des capacités modestes certes, mais un navire de guerre quand même », explique un officier. Sans que le concept soit encore très poussé, les esprits s'orienteraient plutôt vers ce qu'on commence à appeler la « super Floréal », en référence aux six frégates de surveillance construites aux Chantiers de l'Atlantique entre 1992 et 1994. Longs de 93.5 mètres pour un déplacement de 3000 tonnes, ces bâtiments construits suivant les normes civiles présentent une grande autonomie à la mer. Ils disposent d'un armement léger mais suffisant (missiles Exocet, système surface-air Simbad, canons de 100 mm et 20 mm) et peuvent embarquer un hélicoptère."
 
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  • #162
The 'Secret Defense' blog indicates that the PA2 decision has been delayed until 2011.

As for the Mistrals, the paper sets a target of four being available by 2020. That's a long way away and leaves a lot of room for a change of priorities before any orders need to be placed. How on earth the French expect to be able to protect a carrier group plus maintain "the capability to deploy one or two naval groups either for amphibious operations or for the protection of sea lines" with only 2 Horizons and a couple of air defence FREMMS is beyond me. You cannot rely on coalitions for this kind of thing, especially given the different rules of engagement different governments impose on their forces (as in Afghanistan).

The paper also sets a 'target' of 6 SSNs. To me that sounds like they are uncertain about Barracuda numbers.

WillS
www.boilingthefrog.co.uk
According to the new White Paper, the La Fayettes will become first frigates. The MN has two classifications for its frigates. First ranks ships have AAW and ASW systems. Second rank frigates are presence vessels like the Floreals, and the La Fayettes. I hope the Sarkozy Government will upgrade the La Fayettes AAW systems, and install ASW systems on them.

If the La Fayettes are upgraded the MN could cancel a FREMM ASW and build atleast another FREDA.
 

kato

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
First ranks ships have AAW and ASW systems. Second rank frigates are presence vessels like the Floreals, and the La Fayettes.
Technically, no. First-rank corresponds to Destroyer (NATO Pennant D; frégates du premier ordre) and Second-rank corresponds to Frigate (NATO Pennant F; frégates du deuxième ordre).
As a "third rank", there are the frégates légères - currently the Lafayettes ("light" reflects to armament, not dimensions). The Floreals aren't in that rank system at all, as frégates de surveillance. Within the rank system, they'd likely rank as light frigates, not first/second rank at all.
 

StevoJH

The Bunker Group
Technically, no. First-rank corresponds to Destroyer (NATO Pennant D; frégates du premier ordre) and Second-rank corresponds to Frigate (NATO Pennant F; frégates du deuxième ordre).
As a "third rank", there are the frégates légères - currently the Lafayettes ("light" reflects to armament, not dimensions). The Floreals aren't in that rank system at all, as frégates de surveillance. Within the rank system, they'd likely rank as light frigates, not first/second rank at all.
Yes, but the french designate both AAW and ASW ships to be "first rank frigates", while most navies seperate AAW as destroyer and ASW as frigate. La Fayettes can be upgraded with aster 15 and better ASW equipment IIRC. 2 horizon, 5 Lafayette, 11 FREMM?

And arent the floreals just oversized OPV's?
 

kato

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
most navies seperate AAW as destroyer and ASW as frigate.
Huh? No, they don't. Only the Royal Navy and related Commonwealth Navies do that really.

The last USN dedicated ASW ship was a destroyer (the Sprucans), Russian ASW ships of appropriate size are also typically called destroyers (by Western sources; see eg Kashin and Kara class). Japan also has ASW destroyers (newest: Takanami class)

The Floreals are badly armed frigates, not overarmed OPVs.
 

StevoJH

The Bunker Group
The Floreals are badly armed frigates, not overarmed OPVs.
1 100mm and 2 20mm light guns, so they can shoot down helicopters, small boats and civilian ships, ok.
Do they have any "modern" self defense equipment? no.
They have a single pair of exocet missiles for anti-shipping, wow, they are outgunned by German FAC's.
They have a helicopter for Antishipping and ASW.

Ok.
The only thing they have that would make them a frigate is the helicopter, and there are a few OPV's that carry helicopters. Sorry, OPV, not Frigate. I suppose you could call it a colonial gunboat :p
 

kato

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
wow, they are outgunned by German FAC's.
Plenty of stuff is outgunned by German FACs...

Anyway, OPVs generally do not have a viable Air Surveillance Radar, or any kind of Electronic Warfare equipment or self-defence launchers. Military-level Satcom is also usually pretty rare. The Floreal carries all those. And the two Exocets do make a difference. ;)
 

Sea Toby

New Member
Yes, a lot of FACs outgun an OPV or patrol frigate, but none of the FACs have the range. If you do a bit more study you will discover just about every navy that operates FACs are Baltic, Mediterranean, or Persian Gulf navies where range isn't a concern.

And while France may be targeted for an invasion, its far less likely New Caledonia, French Polynesia, or the island of Reunion and Martinique are. These colonial regions require OPVs or patrol frigates to police their EEZs more than they need a warship.

.
 

swerve

Super Moderator
Yes, a lot of FACs outgun an OPV or patrol frigate, but none of the FACs have the range. If you do a bit more study you will discover just about every navy that operates FACs are Baltic, Mediterranean, or Persian Gulf navies where range isn't a concern.

And while France may be targeted for an invasion, its far less likely New Caledonia, French Polynesia, or the island of Reunion and Martinique are. These colonial regions require OPVs or patrol frigates to police their EEZs more than they need a warship.

.
One of the strengths of the Floreal is its great range. A modest-sized, cheap to build, cheap to operate vessel, able to cover vast distances of open ocean, coping with whatever sea conditions it encounters, & splat any pirate, insurgent, etc. Not meant for high intensity warfare in narrow seas, like a German FAC. Horses for courses.
 

kato

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
just about every navy that operates FACs are Baltic, Mediterranean, or Persian Gulf navies
Not to throw a crank into that, but...

Chile (Type 148, Saar IV)
Japan (Hayabusa)
Malaysia (Combattante II, Spica-M)
Singapore (Fearless)
Pakistan (Jalalat)
Taiwan (Kuang Hua IV, Hai Ou)
[...]

And that's just the sub-500-ton stuff. Plenty more "corvettes" in the 500-700 ton range with relatively low range.
 

swerve

Super Moderator
All those except Pakistan have archipelagos to protect, or operate in narrow seas. Yes, he's wrong to say that they're almost all in the three seas he mentions, but he's right in that they're overwhelmingly operated in relatively confined waters, not open ocean.
 

youpii

New Member
I didn't see any plan to replace Jeanne d'Arc or the supply ships (Marne, Var, etc.) in the white White Book. Did I miss something?

Bougainville is going to be soldd soon. Maybe they can use it to replace Jeanne d'Arc until a proper replacement arrives? Not a perfect solution but still better than a civilian ferry.
 

swerve

Super Moderator
I didn't see any plan to replace Jeanne d'Arc or the supply ships (Marne, Var, etc.) in the white White Book. Did I miss something?

Bougainville is going to be soldd soon. Maybe they can use it to replace Jeanne d'Arc until a proper replacement arrives? Not a perfect solution but still better than a civilian ferry.
According to the plan, they'll get two more LHDs. One of those could take over the training role from Jeanne d'Arc.
 

swerve

Super Moderator
These two more LHDs should replace Sirocco and Foudre.
But Siroco was only commissioned in 1998, & Foudre in 1990. Siroco will only be 22 years old in 2020, & Foudre 30. Orage & Ouragan were almost 40 years old when retired. Isn't it more reasonable to assume that one of the LHDs will replace Jeanne d'Arc - which was commissioned in 1964? Or maybe, that Jeanne d'Arc will be retired, & her training role taken over by one of the LPDs, while a new LHD replaces that LPD in the front line.
 

kato

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
The two LPDs are extremely useful due to their huge docking wells (think i've mentioned that above).
They can, among other things, be used to transport entire 700-ton LSMs, or transport P400 patrol vessels internally (!) for overseas service.
I think both will see very long service, even if withdrawn from frontline service at some point and moved to an auxiliary role similar to how Bougainville has served in the past 10 years.

If the two new LHDs replaced the LPDs, these would likely be moved to such auxiliary overseas service. Don't forget that Meuse, Var etc (as command vessels) are also getting old, and that these LPDs in addition to transporting units for overseas service could provide extremely extensive facilities for overseas flotillas. Perhaps even with installed workshops to partially replace vessels such as the Jules Verne for these flotillas.

In that case, the amphibious force would more likely than not be reduced to three ships, with the fourth unit replacing JdA (and being available as a wartime amphib unit). Note that these three ships would then be exactly sized to surge transport an entire TdM amphibious regiment together.

Lots of stuff one can play with hypothetically 10, 15 years down the line.
 

youpii

New Member
With 2 more LHDs, the Meuse & Var replacements are likely to be simple supply ships, not supply & command ships. Let's hope that the french army will have more helicopters to put on the 4 LHDs.
 

contedicavour

New Member
Sentence is a bit hard. Not escort. 18 frigates, full stop. Read: 2 Horizon, 11 FREMM, 5 Lafayette.
I would have bet on 13 FREMMs scraping through, ie 11 ASW/ASUW and 2 AAW (Freda).
The very least the French Navy should do is make all FREMMs Aster 30 equipped like Italy is doing... and equip them with active phased array radar like active Empar.
Otherwise summed with the delay of PA2 (I still can't think of cancellation, for me it's still a delay until better economic and budget times) the air cover of the navy will be really poor.

cheers
 
  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #179
If the two new LHDs replaced the LPDs, these would likely be moved to such auxiliary overseas service. Don't forget that Meuse, Var etc (as command vessels) are also getting old, and that these LPDs in addition to transporting units for overseas service could provide extremely extensive facilities for overseas flotillas. Perhaps even with installed workshops to partially replace vessels such as the Jules Verne for these flotillas.

In that case, the amphibious force would more likely than not be reduced to three ships, with the fourth unit replacing JdA (and being available as a wartime amphib unit). Note that these three ships would then be exactly sized to surge transport an entire TdM amphibious regiment together.

Lots of stuff one can play with hypothetically 10, 15 years down the line.
The Mistral 28,000 ton variant LHD design, will probably be chosen for the 2 new French LHDs. I highly doubt one of the 4 Mistrals will replace the JdA.
One of the LPDs will replace the JdA or the MN may sell one of the LPDs and by a cheap replacement with the funds. The MN made inquiries about a 14,000 ton stripped down version of the Mistral as a replacement for the JdA.

I would have bet on 13 FREMMs scraping through, ie 11 ASW/ASUW and 2 AAW (Freda).
The very least the French Navy should do is make all FREMMs Aster 30 equipped like Italy is doing... and equip them with active phased array radar like active Empar.
Otherwise summed with the delay of PA2 (I still can't think of cancellation, for me it's still a delay until better economic and budget times) the air cover of the navy will be really poor.

cheers
I'm done with debates about how effect a AAW radar Herakles is.
The CDG BG will have very good air cover with the Horizons and the FREMM along with their E2Cs.

The MN should make some improvements to Sarko's proposesd future surface escort fleet. The two ordered FREMM LA, should be modeled after the Greek FREMM proposal. The Greek FREEM would have 16 A50 and 16 A70 vls, along with 24 A35 vls for VL MICA.

The La Fayettes should atleast recieve VL Crotale, Exocet Block III, a hull mounted sonar, and a small number of MU90 torpedos for self defense.
 
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fakh90

New Member
The La Fayettes should atleast recieve VL Crotale, Exocet Block III, a hull mounted sonar, and a small number of MU90 torpedos for self defense.
If the La Fayettes become 1st rank frigates, will their hull numbers get changed from "F###" to "D###" ?? All 1st rank frigates have DDG classifications right? I still find it hard to believe that the La Fayettes are going to be classified as 1st rank frigates,though, even with the VL Aster & ASM system update possibility in the future .

The white paper didn't explicitly mention how many FREMMs are going to be built.

With 11 FREMMs (supposedly) & 2 Horizons, France still needs another 5 vessels. Is it likely that the 5 vessels would be a new class of ship, a smaller and less expensive version of FREMM? FM400 maybe?

Or, would it be 16 FREMMs ( including FREDA) and 2 Horizons ??? With prolonged project length/ delays , of course.
 
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