who can kill a modern Main Battle Tank (MBT)?

[Chrom]

It doesn`t have to get that cold for the round to start having issues. Also it may not be that easy to design a batch for cold weather purposes, all it takes is a little moisture.

Hmm, then how cold it should be by your information?

 

[eckherl]

Hmm, then how cold it should be by your information?

I really cannot give you an exact temperature, and any number given would be purely speculation on my part, can the Russians really come up with an exact temperature, it is really a unpredictable element used for this type of projectile.

 

[ambushb]

Get Real

Well Folks, you guys being well informed have to keep in mind one thing that is the biggest battle winning factor - The RIght Place, The Right Time and The Right thing. The one thing, apart from whether the Tk in question has a rolled homogeneous armr or a Chobham Type sandwich armr or even the DU armr, whether it has an Active Protn Suite installed or not, a good tk cdr who is sound on his tactics will know that no matter what, one can be hit. There have been documented incidences of crew gettin killed by simple bolt action sniper rifles too!! It has to be given that the devp of armr today can beat most of the amn available, but one has to note the fact that the en isn't compelled to hit us when and where we want. So a peice of eqpt worth Billions is just about as good as the guy using it and the Cdr in comd.
Just sum food for thought!!!


P.S Keep up the good work, this is interesting!

 

[Chrom]

I really cannot give you an exact temperature, and any number given would be purely speculation on my part, can the Russians really come up with an exact temperature, it is really a unpredictable element used for this type of projectile.

I imagine it should be written in manual for each particular TB ammo. Need to look at it, if it is not classified.

But, as i said, at least for like -15 C there is 100% no problem, i've seen footage and reports of using TB ammo at that temperature.

 

[PrOeLiTeZ]

cheap car, plenty C4, sucide driver=tank destroyed

Admin. Txt deleted. It's inapprop to add smileys to these kinds of debates

 

[lobbie111]

cheap car, plenty C4, sucide driver=tank destroyed Admin. Text deleted

I doubt that it would get close enough to a tank to do any damage, please these comments funny as they may seem are offensive to some people and have all been said before, think before you post, trust me I know...

That scares me, a round dependant on weather no thanks...

 

[Chrom]

I doubt that it would get close enough to a tank to do any damage, please these comments funny as they may seem are offensive to some people and have all been said before, think before you post, trust me I know...

That scares me, a round dependant on weather no thanks...

A lot of weapon is heavily depended on weather. I mean, even simply AR have very high chance to jam in sand storm, tanks and other IFV's have problems to see in bad weather, etc.

In return, you become a tool which in 90% cases is several times more effective than other means. Pretty good trade-off in my book, considering you can still use everything else without problem when weather conditions is not suitable.

 

[luca28]

Dynamit Nobel Defence presents new reactive armour solutions and concepts

05:49 GMT, July 21, 2009 defpro.com | At a time when soldiers in Iraq and Afghanistan face an increasing peril at the hands of an enemy which fights by means of ambushes and – what has become a fashionable expression – asymmetric measures, the offspring of a German company with a long tradition, Dynamit Nobel Defence (DND), recently invited members of the press to present its solutions for vehicle protection as well as enhanced defence and breaching capabilities.

The threat scenario which modern troops encounter today, whether in remote areas of the rough Afghan theatre, in urban skirmishes in Iraq, or by roadside bombs and ambushes, is very much different from more traditional military scenarios. However, today’s scenarios not only require adjusted defensive measures. Also offensive options have to be employed differently or configured in new ways.

Dynamit Nobel Defence, a subsidiary of Israel’s RAFAEL since 2004, is well-positioned to meet the troop’s requirements with both defensive, as well as offensive solutions. However, the press briefing first addressed the company’s reactive armour solution, called CLARA (Composite Lightweight Adaptable Reactive Armour). Further products that have been displayed include the famous family of “Panzerfaust” shoulder-launched anti-tank weapons as well as new developments in the range of recoilless grenade weapons (RGW) and remote controlled weapon stations (RCWS).

During the past year, Dynamit Nobel Defence has generated a turnover of approximately €50 million (US$70.51 million) with overall orders valued at over €200 million. According to Dr. Wolfgang Böttger, CEO of Dynamit Nobel Defence, the company seeks to double the company’s turnover by entering new markets and expanding sales in Germany. So far, only 12 % of the turnover comes from orders in the domestic market, outlining DND’s strong export position.


CLARA low fragment reactive armour

Passive armour has reached its physical limits due to weight and the continuously advancing armour-piercing weapon technology (RPG-7 can penetrate steel plates thicker than 40 cm, which would be far too heavy for any vehicle type). Active armour can also counter only a limited range of threats, leaving a gap that has been closed by reactive armour. DND has joined the ranks of reactive amour producing companies with a special solution called CLARA, which has now received a less inspired designation by German authorities, which by denomination limits its capabilities to counter hollow explosive charges. However, the company emphasises that the light and insensitive appliqué armour protects armoured vehicles and its crews from various shaped charges and projectile forming explosive devices. According to company officials, it may also be further developed to use sensor technology in order to expand the range of threats it can counter, including tandem warheads. It also integrates a certain level of passive protection and can counter blast and EFP-type IEDs and ammunition up to a 12.7 calibre which hits the vehicle where the reactive armour has been applied.

One of the adverse effects of any active or reactive armour is fragmentation when the explosive device is countered. Over many years, DND has been developing a low fragment counter measure which is primarily based on the use of composite material (boxes and screws) as well as on a special insensitive low burning rate (LBR6) explosive agent (1.5D certified). The armour segments which protect the side and front of an armoured vehicle increase the vehicles width by some 35 cm on each side. The segments consist of two boxes placed on top of each other. The lower and heavier box (F1 element) weighs some 40 kg while the smaller box on top (F2 element) weighs approximately 20 kg. The average added weight of the system is 260 kg per square metre. The parts of the vehicle which cannot be equipped with CLARA may be protected by slat armour. The CLARA armour can be mounted by a single person. Yet, a team of persons can up-armour a vehicle within only 15 minutes.

Company officials say there is no alternative to reactive armour when it comes to shaped charges. Also, CLARA provides the advantage of low fragmentation. In Germany, among the countries to first seriously develop reactive armour solutions, the problem of fragmentation almost lead to a stalemate in development activities. As Dr. Wolfgang Böttger states, CLARA takes into account this particular “primal fear of the Bundeswehr” and has proven in various tests to provide a dramatic reduction of fragmentation.


Certified for FENNEC, fit for other vehicles

In cooperation with the German system provider of armoured wheeled and tracked vehicles, Krauss-Maffei Wegmann (KMW), DND has demonstrated the system’s efficiency on the FENNEK light-armoured reconnaissance vehicle. Each side of the FENNEK has been equipped with some 720 kg of reactive armour plus an additional slat armour protection and the vehicle’s own passive armour.

Tests showed that not only the fragmentation could be reduced, but also the protection of the vehicle crew had been substantially increased. Reportedly, the blast effect during the counter measure produces a slight shock, not more than a vehicle hitting a pothole. Even though the respective reactive armour box will be entirely destroyed when triggered, the adjacent segments will not be affected. If attacked by a common RPG-7 shaped charge, the reactive armour disintegrates the penetrating charge, which subsequently leaves only slight dents on the vehicle’s passive armour.

CLARA has already been officially certified for use on the FENNEK. The company now hopes to be awarded contracts for the equipment of future German Armed Forces’ vehicles such as the PUMA infantry fighting vehicle (IFV) as well as for up-armouring vehicles of the existing Bundeswehr fleet as, for instance, DINGO, BOXER, FOX or LEOPARD II. According to Dr. Böttger, the greatest advantage of the system is that it is already available and certified. The PUMA IFV, which is scheduled to enter service in 2010, will quickly require an adequate protection which other German companies can reportedly not provide within this short time frame. Alternatively, the Bundeswehr would either have to purchase reactive armour abroad or wait (IBD Deisenroth is expected to complete an active armour solution around 2012/13). Furthermore, according to company officials, Singapore appears to be as keen as the German Armed Forces to be provided with a low fragment armour solution, which would allow a further push in DND’s already strong export position.


A new concept of recoilless grenade weapons

Dynamit Novel Defence also presented a new development in recoilless grenade weapons (RGW), called “Wirkmittel 90”, which further increases the company’s spectrum of shoulder-fired weapons. The system is based on the RGW 90 family, however, introduces an entirely new concept. The Wirkmittel 90 solution, which currently is being researched in cooperation with the Bundeswehr, will surpass the usually effective range of unguided shoulder-fired weapons of some 500 to 600 metres, to precisely target, for instance, light armoured vehicles, dismounted enemy soldiers or light structures at ranges up to 1,200 metres. The system is scheduled to be operational by 2014.

The grenade integrates a new programmable fuse that can be set to different modes, depending on the target. Hence, the warhead may detonate either straight on the target, above the target in mid-air or delayed for wall-breaching use. This has been accomplished by integrating a new weapons sight and a new fire-control computer in the reusable firing device. The barrel will be exchanged after the grenade has been launched. The already fielded RGW 90 has already proven its value in various tests due to its dual-mode warhead, providing a High Explosive Anti Tank (HEAT) round against armoured vehicles or a High Explosive Squash Head (HESH) round to penetrate walls, bunkers or other fortified emplacements.

Why not use guided anti-tank weapons for such high ranges? Even though it enters the spectrum of this technologically higher weapon class, the Wirkmittel 90 is lighter (at 10 kg it can be carried by one person, including a paratrooper), is less expensive (why use a costly guided missile on an un-armoured Jeep?), and offers various modes of application.

Thomas Meuter, Head of Public Relations, stresses that the company’s approach with the RGW-family and the Wirkmittel 90 is to provide different capabilities in one weapon. The company wants to increase the soldiers’ capabilities beyond the traditional anti-tank mode of application. DND’s shoulder-fired weapons family allows attacking lightly protected targets (e.g. enemy emplacements, light-armoured vehicles), armoured vehicles and bunkers. Its wall-breaching capability perfectly meets troop requirements in military operations in urban territory (MOUT), especially because RGW’s may be fired from within a rather small room as the blast to the rear is widely deflected to the sides. This allows soldiers to observe a target from a well-sheltered emplacement and quickly aim and fire without leaving cover for an extended time.

As Meuter explains, Dynamit Nobel Defence has identified a trend in the military which requires a precision strike capability with a light and flexible weapon against a variety of targets – lightly or heavily armoured – at distances exceeding 500 metres. The existing weapons of the RGW 90 family have already proven to be in demand: DND has sold the system to the Slovenian and the Singapore Armed Forces. Furthermore, the United Kingdom will soon be provided with the RGW 90 after an important tender was won.

“With the help of an interface, it is technologically possible to adapt both, the Panzerfaust as well as the RGW 90, to any weapon station currently available in Germany. It may be added as a single-shot solution or as a multi-grenade launcher, for instance, with four or six integrated barrels. This provides the weapons station with an additional valuable capability,” stated Meuter. As the system can still be used in a dismounted shoulder-launched mode, it furthermore saves transport capacity within the vehicle.

It remains to be seen if the military will identify the same requirement for a weapon which closes the gap between light weapons and 20 mm calibre munitions and will, to a certain extent, be a worthwhile alternative to guided anti-tank weapons. In a next step, according to company officials, it may be worth considering an air-to-ground configuration carried by unmanned aerial systems.

Source: defence.professionals | defpro.com

 

[dpgu800]

I'm guessing a TOW missile would definitely go up against a modern MBT, and perhaps one of the recent modifications of the Panzerfaust-3...

 

[Ananda]

Trophy Active Protections System (APS)

Delated, Double Posting.

 

[Ananda]

Trophy Active Protections System (APS)

From : Trophy Completes Integration to Retrofit the Merkava Mk4 Main Battle Tank

Trophy Completes Integration to Retrofit the Merkava Mk4 Tank
In August 2009 Israel's first operational Merkava Mk4 tanks were declared operational mounting the Trophy Active Protection System (APS). Following a slow process that almost killed the program prior to the 2006 Lebanon War, the Israeli Ministry of Defense funded the trophy's integration with current Merkava Mk4 tanks as a retrofit. An APS will also be integrated into the Merkava based Namer Armored Infantry Fighting Vehicle (AIFV), scheduled for delivery next year.

However, it is not yet certain if the APS will be the Trophy or IMI's Iron Fist which is also under development. In fact, the IDF hasn't finalized its decision about how many and which types of APS it will field throughout the entire force. A mix of systems could prove valuable against a wide range of potential threats expected in medium and high intensity warfare. These images show the Trophy fully integrated into the Merkava Mk4 turret, showing the target acquisition radar, and the interceptor module (note deflector plates behind the interceptor. These are probably used to protect the crew from debris resulting from the Trophy effect. Similar deflectors were visible on the Sherif configured Stryker Vehicle which also mounted the Trophy). During the first months of 2009 the Trophy system went through comprehensive operational testing and was cleared for operational use after a successful operational firing test conducted early August 09. By the end of the year all new Merkava Mk4 tanks will be equipped with the system. Until then, Trophy is being retrofitted to operational tanks.

Only put some part of the article. However this system show that the Israelis feel that the best way to protect their tanks from current anti armour missiles lies not only with upgrading 'pasive' protections (i,e, adding armour), but have to move out to Active Protections System.

From : Anti-tank missile defense system operational | Israel | Jerusalem Post
It's show the system work from 'lauch projectiles' concept. Simmilar also with rival 'Iron Fist' APS being developed for 'NAMER' APC's by Israeli Military Industries.

If this system work as promissed. Perhaps it could revolutionized the concept for Mobile's MBT, in such that MBT's will not have to be all heavily armoured (perhaps only in the belly that have substantial armoured). The rest will rely on APS.
This will reduce the weight an increased the mobility of the next gen MBT.

Sorry if this already being discussed previously. Try to check the last 10 pages ofthe thread, but not finding anymentioned on the new Isreal APS.

 

[eckherl]

Just what I and some have expected, there is still some major fine tuning that needs to be conducted on both systems, to a point that the IDF is not really certain on what system that they want to go with. I do feel though that by fielding both systems to *field* conditions is a good idea, see what system is better suited to with stand this type of environment, which can be harsh.

 

[Waylander]

I wouldn't be surprised to see a mix of the best elements of both systems forming the future standard APS for the IDF.

But now it is time for the other companies out there to accelerate the introduction of their systems if they don't want to fall behind on the export market.
There are several other projects in different countries in the pipe and being the last to enter such an important future market is not going to help to get export contracts.

Such systems will not replace good armor protection in the near future as they are unable to cope with modern KEs. The same way heavy ERA doesn't make heavy basic armor irrelevant but helps alot against some threats and not so much against others.

 

[Palnatoke]

I have a question concerning the previous discussion of anti tank cababilities in the 35-40mm range. As f.ex. those used on CV90 IFVs.

Are these weapons effective against, older, tanks like T-72? Can they penetrate the frontal armour of the T-72?

 

[Waylander]

No, they are not and have to rely on side and rear shots against a tank like even the most basic T-72A or M.

Maybe the T-55 has some weak points in the frontal armor which could be vulnerable to the Bofors of the CV9040 fire. But I wouldn't bet on it.
Like for other IFVs the most reasonable reaction when surprisingly facing an MBT frontally is to fire smoke and trying to blind the enemy optics while driving back into cover as fast as possible.

Side and rear surprise ambushes are the only way to go for IFVs (When not armed with long range ATGMs) if they have to engage enemy MBTs.

 

[Concourse]

How about:

1) MRLS saturation on an armored formation?
2) Javelin-type TOWs? (top-down)
3) Kill all the fuel trucks following behind? :

 

[joeroot]

Its not the thickness of the armour - it is the type of armour. M1a2's use a DU armour plate. In 1999 T72's that managed to close up to 1000 ft had their shells literally bouncing off the M1a2's.

DU and Chobham armour has so far withstood all direct hits. The Challenger 2 armour is rumoured to be stronger than the M1a2's

what if we incorporated a type of acid or chemical based payload in a round and scored a hit either near the vent exause or through one of the track wheels and the axel of it into the main body
would that work or is it impossible to put a chem payload in a round

 

[Waylander]

Most modern MBTs are protected against NBC attacks. Not that one could not slime them. Works when the tank unit is surprised by a artillery or rocket attack for example.
But when buttoned up and with the NBC system being hot a chemical weapon is not going to hurt a MBT.

 

[joeroot]

Most modern MBTs are protected against NBC attacks. Not that one could not slime them. Works when the tank unit is surprised by a artillery or rocket attack for example.
But when buttoned up and with the NBC system being hot a chemical weapon is not going to hurt a MBT.

ok thanks
another quick question what would a HE or willy peet do to the barrel of the tank if it were to be throwen down
wouldnt that disable the main cannon from firing if you could get that close without being noticed

 

[Waylander]

Ahem, how do you want to throw a grenade down the tube?
That's nothing more than suicide.