who can kill a modern Main Battle Tank (MBT)?

[kato]

The LOSAT launcher was also almost bigger than the HMMWV it sat on...

As for the RPG-7 and time-fuzing: against helicopters these were shot with either hit-to-kill, or even less effective, by putting the rocket next to the helo at the very point it automatically self-destructed (920m iirc).

As for Bunkerfaust and 3P capability... the Bunkerfaust was developed for behind-defilade effect. For other explosive applications at similar short ranges, the squad would still have a 40mm grenade launcher anyway.

 

[Waylander]

Nevertheless I expect that with a Panzerfaust 3-IT-600 one can throw the explosives alot farther than with a 40mm GL.
Give it a time fuze and maybe one can take out some positions which are hard to hit with a 40mm GL.

Nevertheless you are right that it is only a nice to have and not an important capability.

 

[lobbie111]

There is a smaller version coming out (of the LOSAT) that will be designed for use on the FCS its a much smaller missile, It will be very interesting indeed especially if given an airburst charge to detonate inside the tank. I can't remember what it's called however.

Any chance of some sort of top down 40mm grenade? maybe a little solid stage that kicks in during terminal flight? it would have to be bigger than your average M203 grenade, but would still be able to fire from an M203, if its only used to imobilise the tank. (would have to be guided somehow)

 

[papazulu4]

Hi all,
Does any of you know any weapon that can probably achieve a kill against the US M1 A2 Abrams? Can the Soviet 125mmm smoothbore gun on the T-72 do that? I have read somewhere that the only weapon that can kill an M1 is the Hellfire missile. Could any one let me know any information on this issue? Many thanks.

Giang Nguyen

KORNET-E (with the antitank warhead)

 

[Feanor]

KORNET-E (with the antitank warhead)

Hehehe. Molotov cocktail. Up the jaxie, multiple ones all over the comms and turret, in the hatch if it's open, in the treads (as many as humanely possible). Even if the tank is still semi-operable, the crew will be cooked alive.

 

[Waylander]

And is as much suicide as trying to put some C4 onto the tank.

Tanks aren't that slow anymore and while it may be possible during urban warfare or when you catch a tank in heavy wood it is close to impossible in relatively urban terrain.

 

[Feanor]

Of course. But since we're out discussing all the ways there are I thought I might as well toss that out there.

 

[Waylander]

And I think we had it before here on some of the 45 pages.

BTW, does anybody really train for such close attacks against MBTs?
I know that it is not done in the Bundeswehr since some time and I would be surprised if any other NATO-country is still doing it.

What about Russia or other countries? (I am not talking about some rag tag militia out of thr 3rd world which might do some stunts like this from time to time...)

 

[lobbie111]

Actually its 46, I think the general consensous it these days tanks are never left alone so there is no need to practice close attacks.

 

[Chrom]

And I think we had it before here on some of the 45 pages.

BTW, does anybody really train for such close attacks against MBTs?
I know that it is not done in the Bundeswehr since some time and I would be surprised if any other NATO-country is still doing it.

What about Russia or other countries? (I am not talking about some rag tag militia out of thr 3rd world which might do some stunts like this from time to time...)

I believe there is no training for that in russian army except very basic training to not fear tanks close by. RPG and ATGM are weapons of choice. Molotov cocktail in general is very ineffective against modern armor, i dont think any army train for it now.

 

[eckherl]

There is a smaller version coming out (of the LOSAT) that will be designed for use on the FCS its a much smaller missile, It will be very interesting indeed especially if given an airburst charge to detonate inside the tank. I can't remember what it's called however.

Any chance of some sort of top down 40mm grenade? maybe a little solid stage that kicks in during terminal flight? it would have to be bigger than your average M203 grenade, but would still be able to fire from an M203, if its only used to imobilise the tank. (would have to be guided somehow)

I wouldn`t count on the LOSAT, performance levels have been rather dismal and we do have better guided projectiles that are cheaper and give better performance.

 

[lobbie111]

I wouldn`t count on the LOSAT, performance levels have been rather dismal and we do have better guided projectiles that are cheaper and give better performance.

CKEM aka Compact Kinetic Energy Missile, its a prototyped concept for FCS so yes there probably isnt much chance of it going through but it is around.

 

[eckherl]

CKEM aka Compact Kinetic Energy Missile, its a prototyped concept for FCS so yes there probably isnt much chance of it going through but it is around.

This one does have potential but here is a couple of others for you that also stand a good chance.

 

[lobbie111]

This one does have potential but here is a couple of others for you that also stand a good chance.

Hmm... promising what is their contry of origin? I have just had another brilliant brainwave when it comes to anti tank projectiles, is it possible to make a hollowpoint KE missile that deforms in soft lead with tungsten carbide jagged edges? so it literally cuts through the armour? once it goes through the crew don't have a chance. I ask not just if it would be effective but if its allowed under UN law?

 

[Waylander]

What is hollowpoint? My dictionary is clueless about it.

If I understand it right you want the KE missile to have sharp egdes (made of some tungsten or DU alloy) so it can cut through the armor.
I don't see the advantages compared to a traditional shaped KE arrow (self sharpening if it is a good one).

The heat created during an impact as well as the armor and the rest of the penetrator entering the tank should be enough to give the crew a headache.

 

[lobbie111]

this is going to take a while, a hollowpoint is a roand that deforms on impact and expands at least twice its size if not more.

On impact it does this (on the exposed lead I want to put the tungsten carbide)

My theory is that more surface area that the force hits with the cutting area the better and bigger the penetration is

 

[Waylander]

Ah, ok that's a hollowpoint round. I expected it but I was not sure. Thanks for the explanation.

But I have to say that it won't work very well against armor. Your eestimation that the more armor hit the better is wrong.

One wants to concentrate the impact power of a KE penetrator onto an area as small as it gets. By doing this the energy of the impact is concentrated on one point.
It os relatively simple and may very well be explained by using a traditional crossbow as an example.
Heavy crossbows can penetrate a relatively heavy metal plate with good bolts. The more sharp and stable this bolt is the more metal one can penetrate. If one uses a not very pointed and soft bolt it is not going to penetrate the same amount of metal.

A KE penetrator is not much more than a very big and heavy bolt. Because of this self sharpening KEs are best what one can currently find on the market. They ability to stay pointed during the penetration is a big plus as it keeps the impact energy focused onto one point instead of diverting it to a bigger part of the armor.

I hope this is understandable even with my limited english. Technical explanations are often enough a little bit difficult because normally I just don't need these words.

 

[lobbie111]

Very comprehensivly explained

In my mind a KE penetrator just goes straight trough how does it actually take down the tank? I assume it fragments after hiting the opposite wall

 

[Waylander]

If a whole is punched into the tank than alot of metal fragments come through this whole.
These fragments consist of the remnants of the penetrator itself as well as parts of the armor.
You can imagine what alot of high speed metal fragments do to the crew and interior of a tank...
Additionally these fragments tend to be extremely hot because alot of the impact energy is converted into heat. Thus an ammo explosion or another kind of fire is also a tipical result of a hit by a KE.
Usually we call what happens during impact Trefferblitz---> impact flash because if one hits a target with a KE it results in a flash (the impact energy converted into heat and light).
This phenomen helps tank crews to indentifiy impacts on enemy tanks even if the air is full of smoke and debris.

 

[lobbie111]

Thanks for the explanation, never had faith in KE penetrators but now I do, if you hit the tank in the turret would this also effect the driver?

So what we can look at per se, is some type of high pressure man portable device that is capable of firing a APFSDS round the equivalent to at least 105mm at best 120mm