Arms race: Greece & Turkey

[eliaslar]

I would also like to thank AegisFC.
I would also like to correct fantasma on his post. The HN doesn't have 5 ships already. It has the first 3 ships operating and 2 more in construction, they are almost complete but not delivered to the navy yet, something which will happen soon.

 

[fantasma]

I would also like to correct fantasma on his post. The HN doesn't have 5 ships already. It has the first 3 ships operating and 2 more in construction, they are almost complete but not delivered to the navy yet, something which will happen soon.

eliaslar is tottaly correct. I had in mind that the last two were already operational

 

[beleg]

Nice to see the topic open again. Hopefully people will stay more respectful next time. Keep your private arguments in PMs as we have invested time and effort in this thread , discussed even very hot topics and kept our gentleman stance against each other. I don't want it to be locked and thrown away to garbage.

Anyway back to the topic.

Is there any news on U-214s? And hows the Neptune modernization program coming along?

 

[eliaslar]

I agree with you beleg about this thread.

about the U-214 subs i will direct you in this thread

http://www.defencetalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=5529&page=9

About the Neptune modernization, the Neptune I has already been completed, about the Neptune II, i think there was some complication which resulted in the delay of the program, but i don't have any information about that.

 

[eliaslar]

During Mr Sarkozy's visit in Greece on Friday some off the record conversations made about some of the most important programs of the Greek defensive plan.

As media informs us, there was a "deal" in the political level about the FREMM frigates, that might play a major role in the final decision about this program, and there was also a very interesting proposal from the French side about the Rafale.

According to this proposal, instead of upgrading the rest 20 Mirage 2000EGM/BGM the Greek side might be able to replace them with 25 Rafales.

To me this seems more a proposal or a firework from the French side and not something that has some real potential to take place.

 

[fantasma]

As media informs us, there was a "deal" in the political level about the FREMM frigates, that might play a major role in the final decision about this program, and there was also a very interesting proposal from the French side about the Rafale.

According to this proposal, instead of upgrading the rest 20 Mirage 2000EGM/BGM the Greek side might be able to replace them with 25 Rafales.

To me this seems more a proposal or a firework from the French side and not something that has some real potential to take place.

Conserning the frigate procurement i think the FREDA/FREMM are quite certain to be the next boat of the H.N There was an article released in greek press saying that the frigate project will be even bigger than the HAF new generation purchases of the next yrs. The frigate prozect might reach 10 vessels next 10-15 years and 8 billion euros. The question is that the H.N needs a real AAW frigate and i have doubts about how Freda with Heracles can achieve this role. Its a questionmark for me..It might be a very very good multipurpose frigate but as an AAW vessel
The Rafal case i think its as eliaslar said a more fireworks issue and a desperate effort for the french side to find customers for their jet. Greece does not need Rafale if i was asked. Too expensive with less capabilities compared to Eurofighter tranche 2 and mostly tranche 3. It will cause more troubles in logistics, pilot training, maintenance, than the potential can give to HAF.If we buy Rafal it will be to me the worst case scenario.

 

[ROCK45]

France, Greece arms sale talks go well-French offical

A little Greece news I found not sure how much it really means. I notice France always includes other items in the Rafale sales talks. It never seems a straight aircraft offer always some sort of a mix deal. Maybe this is something they should change. From what I read about the Rafale it's a little stronger on the AG side and Greece already has the F-16 for the mission type. I always wondered how they know that does anybody have a list of fighters the Rafale went up against? Thanks

Sat Jun 7, 2008 8:37am EDT

BEIRUT, June 7 (Reuters) - Talks between France and Greece over the possible sale of Rafale figter jets, Super Puma helicopters and Fremm frigates are "advancing well", an official close to French president Nicolas Sarkozy said on Saturday.

The talks are about the possible Greek purchase of 40 Rafale planes made by Dassault (AVMD.PA: Quote, Profile, Research), 10 navy frigates and some 15 Super Pumas from Eurocopter (EAD.PA: Quote, Profile, Research), the official said at the margin of a visit by Sarkozy to Lebanon.

"That is what is on the table," the official, who declined to be named, said; "The three dossiers are advancing well."

Last week the president's office said the United Arab Emerates would buy 63 Rafale fighters to replace their French-made Mirage jets -- the first ever foreign order for the Rafale.

(Reporting by Emmanel Jarry)

Link
http://www.reuters.com/article/rbssIndustryMaterialsUtilitiesNews/idUSL0770152220080607

 

[eliaslar]

About the frigates the number 10 seems too good to be true but i'm afraid that the budget for such an order will touch the stars and maybe there will be a delay in other programs.

The only sure thing is that the FREMM with SCALP naval, will be a deadly combination and multiply the offensive capabilities of Hellenic armed forces.

Now about the AAW capabilities i agree with fantasma, but i would wait to see the final configuration of the ships. On the other hand the current AAW configuration of the FREMM seems to be much better than any of the ships that operate today in the Aegean, but that's true only in the present time and maybe until 2015.

 

[BLACK SHIP]

So far there is nothing but rumors floating around .There is nothing from official sources .The number of ships and their equipment and weapons is speculation.
If you take into account that all the ships of Elli class will need replacement in the coming years a long term procurement plan based on the chosen platform adopted for the Navy's needs ,may be , is the best solution .It appears though that the number of required in service major ships is up again and that's good news.

 

[jedigman]

Greece should worry about the 737 AW&Cs with a radar range of 200nm and the ability to simultaneously track 3,000 air and land targets couple that with the F-35 its not a threat Greece should underestimate. :kiss

 

[eliaslar]

I don't think there is someone in Greece who underestimate that combination

I would also like to add in the above, about the French proposals made, that there was some talking made in the energy field and especially in the nuclear power.
Although the Greek goverment doesn't seem to be very willing to make such a step now, i am quite sure that Greece in the recent future will make the step and build a nuclear power station.

 

[Yasin20]

this is like a never ending form man about turkiye and greece i think were going to brake the record over 1000 replys

 

[zimmerlip]

Personally, I think it's about time to make peace. Turkiye freed itself of Greek invaders in, like, 1922. The rest of the world has moved on. Both countries are great, both are wellsprings of history and civilization. I've seen Greeks and Turks work together, and after they get over their mutual antipathies, they begin to really appreciate each other's good qualities, which are many. I'd like to see both countries participate more in NATO ventures where their militaries are forced to work together. After they rub off the sharp edges, they do work well together in an environment of mutual respect.

 

[orko_8]

Personally, I think it's about time to make peace. Turkiye freed itself of Greek invaders in, like, 1922. The rest of the world has moved on. Both countries are great, both are wellsprings of history and civilization. I've seen Greeks and Turks work together, and after they get over their mutual antipathies, they begin to really appreciate each other's good qualities, which are many. I'd like to see both countries participate more in NATO ventures where their militaries are forced to work together. After they rub off the sharp edges, they do work well together in an environment of mutual respect.

Below is the list of wars & conflicts that have taken place in the close perimeter (i.e neighboring states or close vicinity) of Turkey since 1980:

1975 - 1990 Lebanese Civil War
1980 - 1988 Iran - Iraq War
1981 Israel's Osiraq Raid
1982 First Lebanese War
1988 - 1994 Armenian - Azerbaijan War
1990 Invasion of Kuwait by Iraq
1991 First Gulf War
1992 - 1995 Bosnian War (Yugoslavian Civil War)
1994 - 1996 First Chechnya War
1998 - 1999 Kosovo War
1999 - 2004 Second Chechnya War
2003 Second Gulf War
2003 - ... Iraqi Civil War / Insurgency
2006 Second Lebanese War
2008 Caucasian War

Plus

Brinkmanship / close call to war with Greece in 1987, 1996, 1997 and with Syria in 1998,

Assymetric Warfare / Low Intensity Conflict since 1984.

I think the above provides a clear picture on Turkish defense requirements and armament spending.

 

[eliaslar]

According to Greek media the first EMB-145 AEW&C was delivered to HAF.

After so much anticipation the first of the 4 aircrafts was finally accepted from HAF and the rest will follow in the very near future.

I would also like to add that in the weekend 12-14 of September, an airshow will take place in 114TFW in Tanagra, near Athens.

I would like to remind the Airshow "Arhanggelos (Archangel)" which took place in the same AFB 2 years ago.

This time,as 2 years ago, there will be aircrafts from foreign countries (Denmark, France, Austria, Hungary, USA, Belgium, Germany, Italy, Portugal, Romania, UK, Holland and Slovenia), but according to the program only aircrafts from HAF will take part in the flying demonstration, including the EMB-145.

 

[fantasma]

Two greek EMB 145-AEW have participated to the NATO exersice NOBLE MIDAS 2008..according to the press the last two platforms will be commissioned until the end of the current year.

 

[wimpymouse]

What's happened down there the last half year, this thread has died, have you all killed each other yetyet? I bet you guys talked each other to death over a game of backgamon... Frigates, Fighters, what's happening?

 

[BLACK SHIP]

The usual intrusions interceptions mock dogfights and protests.
Increased activity and tension the last few days . This however might get to something serious and out of hand.

 

[wimpymouse]

The usual intrusions interceptions mock dogfights and protests.
Increased activity and tension the last few days . This however might get to something serious and out of hand.

No changes since the last decade then, huh?

I ment more precisly about new Greco and Turkish acusitions; the Fremm frigates, Rafale etc.

 

[fantasma]

Global financial crisis striked hard both economies. Greece is trying to get some billion euros of loans through the international markets with goverment bonds and by the same time Turkey was granted a loan from the IMF some 15 billion euros and i think that she seeks another loan of 20-25 billion euros otherwise Turkish economy is going to suffer a severe internal financial collapse.

Greece;s economy also is at a difficult stage trying to get the needed funds from the bond market. Turkey except financial problems faces inernal problems between Islamists (Erdogan and AKP, large part of society that trends towards pro-islamic way of life and so on) and Kemalists (Generals bureacrates Judicials Baycal and the whole system that supports secularism).

We also have and had corruption problems financial problems educational problems and with the help of far leftist gangs which took advantage of the reason that the police killed by stupidity a 15 year old kid and then was difficult to show her boldness we lived riot stories in Athens.

In such an environment its kind difficult to focus in procurements or provocations over Aegean that Turkey maybe cause of its internal problems in almost a daily bases intrudes in national airspace and above inhabitant islands in a very low altitude such as farmakonisi or Agathonisi claiming that they are turkish soil and trying to intercept the choppers which carry the guards or supplies to the national guard that the two islands have.

It is rumoured that the case of shooting down turkish aircraft/s is actually very close the very last days. Maybe this is what Turkey needs to mislead turkish public from the internal political controversy.