The Arjun Tank

[Aliph Ahmed]

I am starting to wonder if there is more money to be made in corruption with a local Arjun Tank deal Vs an imported T-90 Tank deal.

Kind of agree with the article that the only reason Arjun Tank is still around in whatever problem prone sorry state, it is due to political muscle of Indian establishment. If it was to Army, it would have been scrapped long ago due to consistent failure of one sort or another in every trial.

My take : A maximum of few dozen Arjuns will be inducted and those too for the colorfull National Parada Day and the larger order will be cancelled in favour of another super duper tank.

 

[n21]

Give that order to DRDO, spend 200 mils $$ - you'll receive nothing (ZERO) output in 10 years. In 10 years, DRDO will form a join venture with already named German, Russian, Israel firms... buy/locally adopt they hardware... and in 20 years we will see new Arjun-XM with these specs. Arjun, which could be bought 10 years earlier from Russia or Germany. Arjun, 2 times as expensive or less capable as foreign examples, with 60%+ imported components.

Thought I would aput in a comment.
You raise a point about DRDO not able to deliver anything of quality.

Since we are in the Arjun thread.let me take it as an example. If you pull out the numerous reports in the last couple of years about failure of Arjun, you will see that IA has always been complaining about engine(German) failure,transmission(German) failure and thermal(French) failures.
Ironically the Indian parts works perfectly. IA never had problems with the main gun,suspension works as designed,the Indian round works,BMS works fine,armour is fineetc..

Isn't it amazing that "cutting edge technology producers" are not able to make their "high quality" systems work in an Indian condition,nor pass through a testing process of a "third world" country for almost an decade now.Compare to this,DRDO products actually work in Indian conditions.

Lets me wonder who actually delivers "low quality products".

Given that DRDO is a government run agency and work on a shoe string budget,whatever they have done so far is more than satisfactory with respect to India.

 

[Chrom]

Thought I would aput in a comment.
You raise a point about DRDO not able to deliver anything of quality.

Since we are in the Arjun thread.let me take it as an example. If you pull out the numerous reports in the last couple of years about failure of Arjun, you will see that IA has always been complaining about engine(German) failure,transmission(German) failure and thermal(French) failures.
Ironically the Indian parts works perfectly. IA never had problems with the main gun,suspension works as designed,the Indian round works,BMS works fine,armour is fineetc..

Isn't it amazing that "cutting edge technology producers" are not able to make their "high quality" systems work in an Indian condition,nor pass through a testing process of a "third world" country for almost an decade now.Compare to this,DRDO products actually work in Indian conditions.

Lets me wonder who actually delivers "low quality products".

Given that DRDO is a government run agency and work on a shoe string budget,whatever they have done so far is more than satisfactory with respect to India.

1. Most vital Arjun components are imported. No wonder if anything happens - it is within imported components...

2. As you said, these are proven components. But they are not some holy piece of alien technology - everything work good only within designed specification. This is the job of Indian integrators - to make each foreign component work within its design limits.

For example, TI will not work in too hot conditions. Not SAGEM fault. MTC engine will not work without adequate air cleaning. Not MTC designers fault. And so on...

3. To choose right and reliable foreign components - also a Indian developers job...

4. For the money spend on Arjun development - India have received excellent tank. One can only wonder what could be achieved with better funding...

 

[n21]

1. Most vital Arjun components are imported. No wonder if anything happens - it is within imported components...

2. As you said, these are proven components. But they are not some holy piece of alien technology - everything work good only within designed specification. This is the job of Indian integrators - to make each foreign component work within its design limits.

For example, TI will not work in too hot conditions. Not SAGEM fault. MTC engine will not work without adequate air cleaning. Not MTC designers fault. And so on...

3. To choose right and reliable foreign components - also a Indian developers job...

4. For the money spend on Arjun development - India have received excellent tank. One can only wonder what could be achieved with better funding...

1.India did not even have a armour tech or suspension when it started Arjun.
Is it logical that you would import if you dont have the tech in house? India did not have everything given on a golden plate.
The "famed foreign" components have the luxury to fail,while DRDO delivers low quality stuff if it's components have some issues?

2."Design Specification"? So you saying MTU did not know that engines won't work above 60C? It has been couple of decades and they still have to come up with a engine which works at 69C? And that is DRDO's fault? if it was as easy as you gave the example,it would not taken that long to fix the engine issue.

Did you happen to see the brochures of these "cutting edge" products? If they work as claimed, it would have worked in Indian conditions as well. Atleast that is expected out of "market leaders" isn't it?

3.How would you know something is reliable if you haven't tried it out and spend huge efforts testing it out? DRDO does not have a magic wand which picks the right systems in blink of a eye.Care to tell me which other 1400 hp engine DRDO could have picked up instead of MTU?

4. The money spend on Arjun dev(from day one till date) is 90 million dollars. How many "excellent tank" could have India bought? 20, 40? You complain that India spend too much money on Arjun and at the same time say DRDO should pick up perfect systems irrespective of it's cost.
You can't have it both ways can you?

 

[Aliph Ahmed]

4. The money spend on Arjun dev(from day one till date) is 90 million dollars. How many "excellent tank" could have India bought? 20, 40? You complain that India spend too much money on Arjun and at the same time say DRDO should pick up perfect systems irrespective of it's cost.
You can't have it both ways can you?

Only $90 million over 20+ years ?

Just wondering, if the meagre amount provided/spend on Arjun was due to the lack of interest of Indian political establishment or was it due to the inability and incompetence of DODO to do a proper financial planning vis a vis cost to Arjun Tank ?

By the way, Shouldnt the DODO scientists have looked into the specs and digested the data before ordering the foreign products to be installed on Arjun Tank that should have workd ?

Not a good idea to expect something to locate 10 km away while it is only capable of locating 4 km.

 

[Feanor]

The "famed foreign" components have the luxury to fail,while DRDO delivers low quality stuff if it's components have some issues?

The low quality stuff is the final product, the tank itself.

2."Design Specification"? So you saying MTU did not know that engines won't work above 60C? It has been couple of decades and they still have to come up with a engine which works at 69C? And that is DRDO's fault? if it was as easy as you gave the example,it would not taken that long to fix the engine issue.

Who chose that engine for the Arjun? :wink:

3.How would you know something is reliable if you haven't tried it out and spend huge efforts testing it out? DRDO does not have a magic wand which picks the right systems in blink of a eye.

This is what makes the difference between a so-so design and an excellent design.

Care to tell me which other 1400 hp engine DRDO could have picked up instead of MTU?

They could've lowered the weight of the tank and chosen a lower power engine to keep power/weight ratio at desired level. Or they could've designed their own with some foreign assistance like the Brahmos venture with Russia.

4. The money spend on Arjun dev(from day one till date) is 90 million dollars. How many "excellent tank" could have India bought? 20, 40? You complain that India spend too much money on Arjun and at the same time say DRDO should pick up perfect systems irrespective of it's cost.
You can't have it both ways can you?

Maybe the real problem is too much time?

 

[Chrom]

1.India did not even have a armour tech or suspension when it started Arjun.
Is it logical that you would import if you dont have the tech in house? India did not have everything given on a golden plate.
The "famed foreign" components have the luxury to fail,while DRDO delivers low quality stuff if it's components have some issues?

No, there is another question. No one blame Arjun more or less when specifically Indian component fail. But they blame Arjun if ANYTHING fails - regardless of country of origin. Because it is job of Arjun's developers - to find suitable foreign supplier, to integrate the supplied product right, to control the quality.

2."Design Specification"? So you saying MTU did not know that engines won't work above 60C? It has been couple of decades and they still have to come up with a engine which works at 69C? And that is DRDO's fault? if it was as easy as you gave the example,it would not taken that long to fix the engine issue.

MTU Very WELL know the engine MIGHT not work above 60C. And i'm 100% sure it is written somewhere in supplied manual. But i have strong suspect what Arjun developers didnt managed to ensure that 60C limit for MTU engine.

Did you happen to see the brochures of these "cutting edge" products? If they work as claimed, it would have worked in Indian conditions as well. Atleast that is expected out of "market leaders" isn't it?

Because technic is a bit more complex than it is written in 2-page brochures. There are many "if's" , "but's" , complex interdependent limitations, etc - and it is job of Arjun system integrators (sometimes together with component manufactures) to provide flawless integration and working condition for separate Arjun components.

This is also reason why it is not so simply to just bastle best foreign components in one basket and become 1A working product.

3.How would you know something is reliable if you haven't tried it out and spend huge efforts testing it out? DRDO does not have a magic wand which picks the right systems in blink of a eye.Care to tell me which other 1400 hp engine DRDO could have picked up instead of MTU?

May be they could test MTU before buying it? And even if not - who cares? It is still fail of Arjun as project - together with MTU, admittedly. Of course IF, and only IF the failure of MTU is caused by original MTU bug, and not wrong integration.

From Indian Army point of view it is not so important WHY Arjun dont work.

4. The money spend on Arjun dev(from day one till date) is 90 million dollars. How many "excellent tank" could have India bought? 20, 40? You complain that India spend too much money on Arjun and at the same time say DRDO should pick up perfect systems irrespective of it's cost.
You can't have it both ways can you?

Well, it is bit close to 220-250 mils as i know. As i said, excellent RESEARCH outcome for the money. Just dont sell this tank to Indian army please.

 

[niteshkjain]

Well, it is bit close to 220-250 mils as i know. As i said, excellent RESEARCH outcome for the money. Just dont sell this tank to Indian army please.

Well the only option left right now is to induct the already ordered 124 tanks make them as MK-1. Like IAF is doing with LCA. Work on 1500hp engine and other vital components and then induct them in numbers may be of 1000.

use the experience gained in MK-1 to rectify the defects in mk-2.

 

[Marc 1]

use the experience gained in MK-1 to rectify the defects in mk-2.

Good idea. Mk 2 should be ready in another 25 years . In the meantime buy more T90's.

 

[niteshkjain]

Dear Marc can you please explain how you came to a figure of 25 year.

 

[Aliph Ahmed]

Well the only option left right now is to induct the already ordered 124 tanks make them as MK-1. Like IAF is doing with LCA. Work on 1500hp engine and other vital components and then induct them in numbers may be of 1000.

use the experience gained in MK-1 to rectify the defects in mk-2.

Why dont induct the problem prone 15-24 Arjun MK1s. Fix their problem and at the same time work on MK2 with the help of Israel, France, USA, UK, Russia, Germany and etc etc.

Cost of Arjun can or may double if additional extensive modifications are requested by Indian Army. Imagine all that extra money India will save. That can all go towards buying help from more countries to come up with a super MK2 version of Arjun Tank.

 

[Feanor]

Why not latch on to the Object 775 project by UVZ? It's supposed to be ready for gov. testing this year. You could throw in some last minute financing which would be used to install the production lines and assembly facilities for, it and as a result end up making it a joint venture like the 5th gen. aviation project.

 

[FallingDown]

Is their funding going to allow them to allow the necessary changes:nutkick

 

[DavidDCM]

Why not latch on to the Object 775 project by UVZ? It's supposed to be ready for gov. testing this year. You could throw in some last minute financing which would be used to install the production lines and assembly facilities for, it and as a result end up making it a joint venture like the 5th gen. aviation project.

Regarding the secretiveness Russia often displays when it comes to their new gadgets it seems very improbable to me that they would allow India (or any other nation) to get their hands on it.

 

[Chrom]

Why dont induct the problem prone 15-24 Arjun MK1s. Fix their problem and at the same time work on MK2 with the help of Israel, France, USA, UK, Russia, Germany and etc etc.

Cost of Arjun can or may double if additional extensive modifications are requested by Indian Army. Imagine all that extra money India will save. That can all go towards buying help from more countries to come up with a super MK2 version of Arjun Tank.

Just remember, Arjun is not about having best or cheapest tank in the world. It was even never meant to be. Arjun is about having independent tank production. Arjun should be average tank without too heavy bugs.

Thats why it is not about saving money.

 

[Aliph Ahmed]

Just remember, Arjun is not about having best or cheapest tank in the world. It was even never meant to be. Arjun is about having independent tank production. Arjun should be average tank without too heavy bugs.

Thats why it is not about saving money.

I agree.

I meant to say that it doesnt make sense to undertake full scale production of 124 when you know that the tank in its current state is flawed, problem prone and have so many defects. Why not just fix the problem of the first 15-25 tanks first and then undertake rest of the order.

and with the saved money, India can buy more help from more countries in producing a MK2 version. There are already so many countries helping India. but seriously, Indians need to expect only what the equipment they buy is capable of.

 

[Chrom]

I agree.

I meant to say that it doesnt make sense to undertake full scale production of 124 when you know that the tank in its current state is flawed, problem prone and have so many defects. Why not just fix the problem of the first 15-25 tanks first and then undertake rest of the order.

and with the saved money, India can buy more help from more countries in producing a MK2 version. There are already so many countries helping India. but seriously, Indians need to expect only what the equipment they buy is capable of.

124 tanks are not "full scale" in any way. 124 are barely enough for good testing.

 

[DavidDCM]

I think now you're exaggerating a bit. Three or four full batallions are barely enough for testing? Please tell me which tank had ever a 124 or more vehicles made solely for "testing" purposes before entering full scale production?

 

[Aliph Ahmed]

I think now you're exaggerating a bit. Three or four full batallions are barely enough for testing? Please tell me which tank had ever a 124 or more vehicles made solely for "testing" purposes before entering full scale production?

This is Arjun Tank. Anything is possible. No other tank shared the same history as of Arjun Tank too.

World's most tested tank and still with so many defects. You never know what is next. Maybe the Indians will go with a 1,500 horsepower engine and a 140mm gun just to keep up with the present time just like they have been trying for the past 20+ years.

 

[Chrom]

I think now you're exaggerating a bit. Three or four full batallions are barely enough for testing? Please tell me which tank had ever a 124 or more vehicles made solely for "testing" purposes before entering full scale production?

Well, from my POV many (if not most) tanks in the world entered initial full scale production in comparable "bug" state with current Arjun.

By full testing i meant really full testing, with average crew, in average regiment, with average technical support. NOT in special regiment with special educated crew and specially supplied technicans - what is bound to happen in case of just 6-10 tanks.