Su-34 Fullback Capability

[Chrom]

Yeah and which one was being used by MiG 29M before the introduction of Damocles? That was my original question.

I dont really know exact name. It was always mentioned just as targeting pod. Given very low numbers of produced Mig-29M there is no wonder we have so little information. Su-27SM and Mig-29SMT are also relatively new development. At least new "Sapsan" and "Platan" targeting pods were already ready before "Sapsan" lost competition to "Damocles".

Thats not going to work for most of your own LGB's, due to the placement of the IRST on the Flanker & Fulcrum families. The platform is going to have to dive on the target untill the weapon impacts, which isnt really feasible due to altitude limitations, i.e. unter the clouds.

Yes, it is unpleasant limitation. This is also reason why russians like to use LGM's - missiles are much easer to use in such case due to they abilty to reach target faster in forward hemispere.
Besides, there is always possibility for "buddy designation" where another Su-27/Mig-29 fly behind and designate target. At least, original Su-25 rumored to use it quite often.

Also remember, this is cheap, integrated ability.

Theres a difference between being LBG capable and haveing a self desingation capability. Take the RAAF's F-111 fleet as an example. The F-111C's carry the Pave Tack EO targetng pod, they have a self designation capability, the F-111G's do not. Now they are all LGB capable, meaning they can carry Paveway bombs but without an F-111C in the package or someone on the ground designateing the target said capability is useless. Thats what i meant by self designation capability. A platform can be LGB capable without it.

Yes, there is. But i dont know ANY russian aircraft which can carry LGB and CANT self-designate for it. It is just not russian way of thinking.

Really, i thought there were planns to run the a large chunck of the MiG-29 fleet through the SMT programme, makeing them all multirole (needeing a targeting pod)?

Both. IRST will be upgraded with ability to designate targets for LG weapon, TV-camera and ability to use TV-guided ammunition will be added, and compatibilty with targeting pod also ensured.

Anyway i doubt the Tu-160 will be doing much LGB work, as its a strategic strike asset rather than tactical. Unless Ivan's planing to use them as CAS assets ala B-52??? They have to be a hell of alot lower in most occasions to utilise LGB's as opposed to GPS/INS.

Sure, it is more of PR. However, russians still have about 600 Su-24Ms, without any limitation to use LG and TV-guided ammunition. As well as some upgraded Tu-22M5 and Su-25s - both upgraded and basic. And new Su-34 slowly coming too...
Such capability will be also added to Tu-95 during current upgrade program.

 

[Ozzy Blizzard]

I dont really know exact name. It was always mentioned just as targeting pod. Given very low numbers of produced Mig-29M there is no wonder we have so little information. Su-27SM and Mig-29SMT are also relatively new development. At least new "Sapsan" and "Platan" targeting pods were already ready before "Sapsan" lost competition to "Damocles".

What EO pods were offered to Algeria with their MiG 29 SMT's???

Yes, it is unpleasant limitation. This is also reason why russians like to use LGM's - missiles are much easer to use in such case due to they abilty to reach target faster in forward hemispere.

Its a pretty severe limitation IMHO. Not just in the dive limitations but in target aquisition. I mean it may work against a clearly visible target with well known co-ordinates like a bridge but good luck trying to hit a tank or something. You have to search for the target first. Its hardly comperable to EO pod. Also it limits use in most cases to ASM's which incur their own payload penalty.

Besides, there is always possibility for "buddy designation" where another Su-27/Mig-29 fly behind and designate target. At least, original Su-25 rumored to use it quite often.

Also remember, this is cheap, integrated ability.

Sure you could allways rely on annother asset, you can use ground based designators aswell. But that's not the issue here.

Yes, there is. But i dont know ANY russian aircraft which can carry LGB and CANT self-designate for it. It is just not russian way of thinking.

If you mean OLS-27 and the like, i'm not sure how much it counts. Ok even if you could designate with it, its hardly comperable to a hardpoint monted targeting pod.

Both. IRST will be upgraded with ability to designate targets for LG weapon, TV-camera and ability to use TV-guided ammunition will be added, and compatibilty with targeting pod also ensured.

Again i'm sceptical as to the IRST's usefulness in this role, unless they change the mounting and hemosphere faceing. This is why i though the SMT upgrade was only for EO guided weapons, I guess they figured the IRST can suffice.

It still seems that the RuAF lacks a contemporary EO targeting pod that will allow true "western" like multirole capability, hence the ned for Damocles. It seems the russian equivelents were found wanting.

Sure, it is more of PR. However, russians still have about 600 Su-24Ms, without any limitation to use LG and TV-guided ammunition. As well as some upgraded Tu-22M5 and Su-25s - both upgraded and basic. And new Su-34 slowly coming too...
Such capability will be also added to Tu-95 during current upgrade program.

600 moderised Su-24M's? When was this programme compleated??? Considering the trouble they had with SU-27SM/MiG 29SMT, i'm suprised at that number or was it sovet erra?

 

[Chrom]

What EO pods were offered to Algeria with their MiG 29 SMT's???

Simply i dont know. May be "Platan" pod? May be some western pod?

Its a pretty severe limitation IMHO. Not just in the dive limitations but in target aquisition. I mean it may work against a clearly visible target with well known co-ordinates like a bridge but good luck trying to hit a tank or something. You have to search for the target first. Its hardly comperable to EO pod. Also it limits use in most cases to ASM's which incur their own payload penalty.

There is boresight TV-camera in the nose for such target acquisition. There is also radar with ground mode. I think it is good enouth capabilty, even if not ideal.

Hmm, why ASM? I mean, Su-27/Mig-29 use just LGM, not anti-ship missiles.

Either way, target acquisition may be somewhat harder but certainly no impossible. I'm sure it will be little problem to hit tank or something - at least, if it is not very well hidden.

There are also TV-guided bombs and missiles.

Sure you could allways rely on annother asset, you can use ground based designators aswell. But that's not the issue here.

It is. 2 Su-27/Mig-29 working in pairs could designate for eachother if they absolutely need to use LGBs from low-alt level flights. In all other cases they can do it themselves. And again, remember - LG munitions is not sole guided weapon in use. There is also TV-guided.

If you mean OLS-27 and the like, i'm not sure how much it counts. Ok even if you could designate with it, its hardly comperable to a hardpoint monted targeting pod.

As i said, it have some limitations. But it is certainly able to do its job done. Just saying "it is useless" is plain wrong.

Again i'm sceptical as to the IRST's usefulness in this role, unless they change the mounting and hemosphere faceing. This is why i though the SMT upgrade was only for EO guided weapons, I guess they figured the IRST can suffice.

Hrm. I dont get it. Yes, IRST can designate for LG ammunition only in forward hemisphere. And? It is still infinitely better than nothing at all. And it still can do its job.

It still seems that the RuAF lacks a contemporary EO targeting pod that will allow true "western" like multirole capability, hence the ned for Damocles. It seems the russian equivelents were found wanting.

No, it is plain wrong. I mean, if 25 years ago russia already fielded integrated pod-like abilities in Su-24M, and some years later OLS-27/30/35 etc - then surery targeting pod wasnt very difficult thing to develop. "Platan" was already ready in 2004. Just OLS-30 in pod would be enouth.

600 moderised Su-24M's? When was this programme compleated??? Considering the trouble they had with SU-27SM/MiG 29SMT, i'm suprised at that number or was it sovet erra?

In USSR time. Starting from later 70x all Su-24 were produced as Su-24M, most older Su-24 were upgraded to "M" standard, few unupgraded were scrapped in 90x.

Last information - about 450 Su-24M currently in RuAF inventory, plus about 100 within navy.

Only few Su-24M were recently upgraded to modern M2 standard. This upgrade is also slowly ongoing like Mig-29SMT, Su-27SM and Mig-31BM (btw, also multirole) upgrades.

P.S. Later Mig-27 versions also had full guided ammunition capability similar to Su-24M, except mig-27 wasnt fully night-capable. Sadly, all Mig-27 was retired by RuAF. But in USSR time they also significally contributed to PGM-strike abilities. You can see why with such large numbers of PGM-capable dedicated strike aircrafts USSR was not very interested in multi-role fighters.

P.P.S. Btw, http://www.airliners.net/photo/Russia---Air/Sukhoi-Su-27SM/0915035/L/
Su-27SM with SAPSAN-E pod.

 

[Chrom]

Also, Mig-35 reportedly have integrated 360" IRST with with laser designator.
Look here http://www.aviapedia.com/video/new-mig-35-ols-video

Possible, such technic also will be or already is used in Su-27SM / Mig-29 SMT program for RuAF. This means they will not need any special targeting pod for unrestricted A-G work.

 

[Scorpion82]

Haven't followed the thread since some time, so here are some facts quoting different posters.

hat's the point- the VLO B-2s still need SATCOM and/or been given EW support, while the Su-34s can self escort. While the B-2s are truly "strategic", they are very expensive to maintain- for all intents & purposes, the Su-34 can do the same job for le$$, IMHO. The B-2 can only be used as a heavy bomb truck, requiring escorts, special hangars, and associated support personnel specifically trained for it. It needs land bases, while the Su-34 has potential for navalization.
There are also EW/maritime strike versions, with big MAD boom for ASW.

The Su-34 is a tactical fighter bomber not more. The aircraft is flexible, but not compareable to the B-2 as a bomber. The Su-34 has neither the range, nor the payload or stealth capabilities to do the job of a B-2. The "navalization" doesn't mean the aircraft can be carrier based, it just means that there was the intention to develope a version, designated Su-32FN, which was optimised towards maritime operations (sea target attack, including anti-submarine warfare). This version was canceled due the lack of money and the designation Su-32 is now used as official export designation for the Su-34.

And in fact, the SALT considered the Tu-22Ms as "strategic" if they had
refueling probes, and to comply with it, Russia had them removed. So, since current & future Su-34 with refueling systems can do Tu-22M3's missions, by extrapolation it is logical to consider them "strategic" as well, IMO.

Well the Su-34 will partitially replace the Su-34, but that doesn't change the fact that it is no stratecial asset.

Su-30 / Mig-29M already have ability to employ guided ammunition from the base version.

Su-30MK/Su-27M have these capabilities using the LRF as well as the MiG-29M, but as Ozzy mentioned this is an insufficient self designation capability, it might work for laser guided AGMs, but is of limited use for LGBs.

Besides, RuAF dont have single Su-30 at all. Base SU-27 version dont have A-G capability

Su-27S has unguided weapons AG capability, but no guided weapons capability. The RuAF introduced 6 Su-30 (No.51-56) but these were baseline Su-30 with AA capabilities only.

Since Su-34 has the same weapons payload as the Su-30/33/35, I feel the extra weight is mainly due to a larger fuel capacity.

So exactly what A-G suite does the Su-34 have?

The Su-34 has a new radar, EWS, integrated targeting/designation system dubbed Plantan or Platan (I'm not sure which one is right), rearward facing radar, new navigation systems etc.

AFAIK MiG-29M is only capable of EO guided weapons. Therefore they can not utilise LGB's i.e. not an existing capability, thats a big difference.

See above LGB capablity is existent, but limited. Self designation is insufficient without a pod or a system located under the fuselage.

Really, i thought there were planns to run the a large chunck of the MiG-29 fleet through the SMT programme, makeing them all multirole (needeing a targeting pod)?

The SMT programme was canceled for the RuAF, due the lack of money and other priorities (upgrading Su-24/25/27 & MiG-31...).

AFAIK its only designed for the Flanker family and is comperable to a 2nd gen western design???

I will post some data about Sapsan-E when I'm home. Maybe you can google a bit in the meantime.

Given very low numbers of produced Mig-29M there is no wonder we have so little information.

There were just 6 prototypes and no production aircraft. Never read something about a LDP for the MiG-29M, just about the designation capabilities of the LRF.

Possible, such technic also will be or already is used in Su-27SM / Mig-29 SMT program for RuAF.

The RuAF is more than likely to use pods on its upgrade and new aircraft like the Su-27SM/SM2 and as said the MiG-29SMT is dead for the RuAF.

 

[nevidimka]

I believe the Damocles is merely an update to the capabilities of the RuAF. Precision targetting has been in RuAF for very long, n it existed in one form or another.
Damocles is rather a new piece of kit that is cross platform, does not require much space for wiring, an is using the latest technology in targetting capability in a small piece of equipment. If the SAPSAN-E is using the IRST for targetting, that would explain why it lost the competition against Damocles, as this kit can be fitted to flankers/fulcrum/frogfoots/fullbacks/ or even the Su 24's.

 

[Chrom]

I believe the Damocles is merely an update to the capabilities of the RuAF. Precision targetting has been in RuAF for very long, n it existed in one form or another.
Damocles is rather a new piece of kit that is cross platform, does not require much space for wiring, an is using the latest technology in targetting capability in a small piece of equipment. If the SAPSAN-E is using the IRST for targetting, that would explain why it lost the competition against Damocles, as this kit can be fitted to flankers/fulcrum/frogfoots/fullbacks/ or even the Su 24's.

No, SAPSAN-E do not use IRST for targeting. In general principle it is more or less equivalent to westerns Litening or Damocles. As much as i know, it was also never meant to be used with Su-24M or Su-34.

 

[Firehorse]

Good picture!-

Отличная аэродинамика, большая емкость внутренних топливных баков, высокоэкономичные двухконтурные двигатели с цифровой системой управления, система дозаправки в воздухе, а также подвеска дополнительных топливных баков обеспечивают полет Су-34 на большие расстояния, приближающиеся к дальностям полета средних стратегических бомбардировщиков.
http://www.redstar.ru/2007/08/02_08/1_01.html

Translation: "Excellent aerodynamics, a large internal storage capacity of fuel tanks, engines with digital control system, mid-air refueling system, as well additional fuel drop tanks give the Su-34 long-range flight capability comparable with medium-size strategic bombers".
IMO, for Eurasian operations you don't need the B-2's extra-long range anyway- Su-34s won't be crossing large bodies of water to get to their targets. So, viewed from that angle, for anything located in the Eastern Hemisphere the Tu-22s & Su-34s are strategic!

Designed for supersonic penetration of enemy airspace at treetop level, SU-34 can carry eight tons of ordnance, and strike from a standoff range of 250km. Fitted with an armored cockpit, advanced countermeasures and effective standoff weapons, it will be able to survive missile's fragments as well as direct hits from small caliber weapons. With external drop tanks, the aircraft has a combat radius of 1,500km, which can be extended by additional drop tanks or aerial refueling. At a gross takeoff weight of 45.1 tons, SU-34 can carry eight tons of external loads, including subsonic and supersonic air/ground missiles and unpowered weapons.
It is equipped with a digital weapon delivery system enabling high precision weapon delivery (accuracy within few meters) at all weather conditions. The aircraft is designed to penetrate enemy airspace at tree-top level using terrain Contour Matching (TERCOM) capability, flying at 1,400 km/h. SU-34 has a top speed of Mach 1.8
..the sturdy, maneuverable and armored Su-34 resembled a flying tank. The aircraft has a spacious, armored cockpit, protected by 17mm steel cage shielding the crew and avionics from bullets and shrapnel. ..It is designed to have a small radar cross section, which, .. is equivalent to that of a supersonic cruise missile.
.."a prototype Su-27UB ..had completed an experimental flight from Moscow to the Okhotsk Sea and back during tests. The plane spent 16 hours in the air and refueled four times from air-force tankers. ..the extended range and crew comfort are of critical importance in Russia, as it usually takes a warplane in the Russian Far East seven days to reach Tajikistan because intermediate airfields are often closed due to bad weather, fuel is not delivered promptly and pilots do not have enough time to rest. But the crew-friendly Su-34 has eliminated all these problems. ..By 2010, the first Russian Air Force Regiment will receive the full complement of 24 aircraft, thereby converting from SU-24 to the new plane. The Air Force currently operates 10 air regiments flying SU-24, which are considered to convert to SU-34 in the future.
http://www.defense-update.com/products/s/su-34.htm

 

[Chrom]

Good picture!-
Translation: Excellent aerodynamics, a large internal storage capacity of fuel tanks, engines with digital control system, mid-air refueling system, as well as the use of of additional fuel drop tanks give the Su-34 long-range flight capability comparable with medium-size strategic bombers.
IMO, for Eurasian operations you don't need the B-2 extra-long range anyway- Su-34s won't be crossing large bodies of water to get to their targets. So, viewed from that angle, Tu-22s & Su-34s are strategic!

From that angle even Mig-29 will be strategic. Lets be real. Su-34 is mid-range bomber. Thats all.

 

[Firehorse]

I agree! Strategic and many tactical bombers can carry both conventional and nuclear weapons, so, IMO, in the post Cold War era, that distinction is absolete! The use of B-52s & B-1Bs in Iraq & Afghanistan for close air support, as well as the recent Tu-160 strike exercises against the RFN CBG are cases in point!

 

[Salty Dog]

A bomb video to give us all a break:

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_lYrrwu-2Kc&feature=related"]YouTube - Smart Bombs[/ame]

 

[Ozzy Blizzard]

A bomb video to give us all a break:

Sorry we've probably been a tad boaring in this thread! After that all i can say is COOL!

This is the type of capability the russians will enjoy with Damocles (i counldnt find that specific video).

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qJYR_ZsryLc"]YouTube - Sniper XR[/ame]

Just to lighten the mood: Heres a russian weapon that doesnt need to be a PGM:

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9djsHyjuJqU"]YouTube - "FOAB " Russian Bomb, father of all bombs[/ame]


@Scorpion, Thanks for the info....

 

[baranek]

when were mig-27s retired and what happened with them after withdrawal?

 

[Firehorse]

By now, they are phased out but are still in the reserve of the Russian AF and are still in service with Air Forces in some CIS countries.
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/russia/mig-27.htm

, as well as some foreign air forces.

If you're asking about Russian MiG-27, they will likely be in reserve and/or foreign sales for some time.

 

[swerve]

, as well as some foreign air forces.

If you're asking about Russian MiG-27, they will likely be in reserve and/or foreign sales for some time.

The Russian air force retired the MiG-27 in the 1990s, IIRC. It seems unlikely that the RuAF still has pilots qualified to fly them, or ground crew qualified to service them, & equally unlikely that after a decade, many - if any - of those still in storage are usable. A handful have been refurbished for sale, but IIRC the last of those was quite a few years ago.

I think they can be completely discounted.

 

[Firehorse]

IMO, since there are still many MiG-23

..fighter-interceptors, with a secondary capability of ground attack. The MiG-23BN and MiG-27 were fighter-bomber variations. http://www.fas.org/nuke/guide/russia/airdef/mig-23.htm

, so there are many pilots and support personnel who can requalify, if needed, to the MiG-27!

By 1999 the Mig-23 had been phased out of front-line service from Russian Anti-aircraft defense interceptor and Air force units and now equips reserve and training units only. Recently Russia replaced them with MiG-29 "Fulcrum" tactical fighters and Su-27 "Flanker" air superiority fighters.
However, MiG-23 fighters remain in widespread service with export customers. Till 1975 some hundreds of such aircraft were passed to Warsaw Pact members and other countries. The basic MiG-23M serves with the Turkmenistan Anti-aircraft defense while Algeria operates the MiG-23MS. MiG-23MFs serve with Cuba, North Korea and Romania. India's surviving MiG-23MFs have been relegated to an air defense training unit. MiG-23MF/ML/MS/MLDs constitute the backbone of the air defense forces of Libya and Syria. Bulgaria operates a mix of MF/ML/MLDs. Mig-23MLDs also equip fighter regiments in Belarus, Kazakhstan and Ukraine. http://www.enemyforces.com/aircraft/mig23.htm

 

[swerve]

IMO, since there are still many MiG-23 , so there are many pilots and support personnel who can requalify, if needed, to the MiG-27!

Pilots who can re-qualify. Tell me, how useful is this in any war short of WW3? Where do these "pilots who can re-qualify" come from? Active units flying more modern aircraft, & already short of trained pilots? Ex-pilots who haven't flown for years? Civilian pilots who haven't flown a fast jet? How long do you expect it to take to re-qualify pilots on fast jets who've never flown them, or haven't flown them for ten years? How many will now be too old?

Please, please, apply a little realism! The Russian Air Force still isn't giving its front-line pilots enough hours, on average, to keep their skills at the right level, yet you'd have us believe there's a vast pool of reserve pilots ready to be tapped.

And what "many MiG-23"? Your sources are hopelessly out of date. The FAS page you linked to says on it "Updated Saturday, June 17, 2000 3:09:30 PM". A lot has changed in the last 8 years. And your other source is just as old. For example, Bulgarias MiG-23s were retired in 2004, having flown little for some time before that, but it claims they are active. Belarus & Ukraine also retired their MiG-23s years ago, but it lists them as in service. Again, be realistic: why would air forces such as Belarus & Ukraine, which have more MiG-29s & Su-27s than they can afford to operate, keep MiG-23s in service?

 

[Firehorse]

You may be right- in that case, they are good to be converted to drones, if there is nobody to fly them! But in any case, MiG-23/27 interceptors/GA aren't beyond the grasp of MiG-25/31 pilots, in Russia and abroad, and those later fighters are in active units! In fact, at least some of them were probably trained on MiG-23UBs when in flight schools!

40 upgraded MiG-27ML fighters will remain.

in IAF.

"During the exercise, MiG-31 interceptors will fire missiles at airborne and ground targets at night and during the day," Colonel Alexander Drobyshevsky said. "About 20 combat jets will participate in the drills."
http://en.rian.ru/russia/20080325/102147896.html

 

[swerve]

You may be right- in that case, they are good to be converted to drones, if there is nobody to fly them! But in any case, MiG-23/27 interceptors/GA aren't beyond the grasp of MiG-25/31 pilots, in Russia and abroad, and those later fighters are in active units! In fact, at least some of them were probably trained on MiG-23UBs when in flight schools!

in IAF.

Yet again, you completely miss the point. If MiG-25 or MiG-31 pilots fly MiG-23s - who will fly the MiG-25s/31s? Do you think Russia has an infinite supply of trained pilots? Can't you get it through your head that due to 16 years of inadequate flying hours, Russia has too few qualified pilots to fly its front line fleet, let alone ancient wrecks from boneyards?

BTW, lashing-up an old stored aircraft for a flight as a target drone is a completely different thing from making it fit for use as an operational manned aircraft.

 

[onslaught]

You may be right- in that case, they are good to be converted to drones, if there is nobody to fly them! But in any case, MiG-23/27 interceptors/GA aren't beyond the grasp of MiG-25/31 pilots, in Russia and abroad, and those later fighters are in active units! In fact, at least some of them were probably trained on MiG-23UBs when in flight schools!

in IAF.

Those MiG-23 are probably poorly maintained and I highly doubt whether they'll get in the air even if there are pilots. The "airborne targets" cited in the article are probably targets pulled by target tugs.