Su-34 Fullback Capability

[Chrom]

That's the point- the VLO B-2s still need SATCOM and/or been given EW support, while the Su-34s can self escort. While the B-2s are truly "strategic", they are very expensive to maintain- for all intents & purposes, the Su-34 can do the same job for le$$, IMHO. The B-2 can only be used as a heavy bomb truck, requiring escorts, special hangars, and associated support personnel specifically trained for it. It needs land bases, while the Su-34 has potential for navalization.
There are also EW/maritime strike versions, with big MAD boom for ASW.

And in fact, the SALT considered the Tu-22Ms as "strategic" if they had
refueling probes, and to comply with it, Russia had them removed. So, since current & future Su-34 with refueling systems can do Tu-22M3's missions, by extrapolation it is logical to consider them "strategic" as well, IMO.

Really, comparing Su-34 with B-2 have little sense. Tu-160 or Tu-22M3 would be much more suitable. Su-34 is better compared to F-15E and F-111.

 

[Salty Dog]

"the "Sea Snake" radarstation is said to be capable of detecting a submarine periscope breaking the surface at a distance of 150km and even small airborne targets up to 250 km away".

This is a very "tall" claim. Even a surface search radar will have a difficult time to pick-up a periscope at 20 km.

 

[Chrom]

"the "Sea Snake" radarstation is said to be capable of detecting a submarine periscope breaking the surface at a distance of 150km and even small airborne targets up to 250 km away".

This is a very "tall" claim. Even a surface search radar will have a difficult time to pick-up a periscope at 20 km.

Yes, i also dont quite believe that. May be in special circumstances - i dont know. Most likely originally "up to 150km" meant.

 

[tphuang]

SU-24 is absolutely certainly capable of both LGB and TV-guided PGM's - both bomb, short-range missiles and long-range (up to 90km) tv-guided missiles. They employed such weapon back in 80x Afganistan war, and also in more recent Chechen conflict. Ofc, it is still later 80x technic with all problems.

SGB - if you mean glider bombs, then russians have long-range missiles instead. Not as cheap - but with much longer range and can be launched from low altitude, not entering long-range SAM's envelope.

For close high-alt work common LGB and TV-guided bombs are good enouth.

I'm talking about satellite guided bombs like JDAM. Russians do have a wide range of LGBs and TV guided missiles.

Does the Su-24 have a fleet wide day/night self designating capability for LG PGMs? I dont think so. Thats what damocles is for, and if its intergrated fleet wide it will provide a truely comprehenseive PGM capability (almost) comperable to wester air forces (J-series).

dude, what is this su-24 hating. Of course the Russians have this, but probably not as good as the French one, that's all.

Su-34 is more akin to a self escorting F-111 and it provides an excellent capability, however you cant compare it to strategic strike assets of the calibur of the B2.

su-34 is like F-15E or F-18E. Of course, when it comes to range x payload factor, F-111 probably owns it. But, that's what you get with real fighter-bombers. You are never going to have the range of a bomber.

 

[Ozzy Blizzard]

AFAIK they lacked a contemporary intergrated IR/EO targeting pod that could be added to all of their tactical strike assets which could not for the most part self designate, hence the need for a western option.

This is all I meant, no SU-24 hating. Do you disagree with the above?

Adding Damocles to Su-37/30 & MiG-29M in addition to the Su-24 should nearly double the number of tactical strike assets in the RuAF. Its an excellent off the shelf option without any US intanglements.

 

[Chrom]

This is all I meant, no SU-24 hating. Do you disagree with the above?

Adding Damocles to Su-37/30 & MiG-29M in addition to the Su-24 should nearly double the number of tactical strike assets in the RuAF. Its an excellent off the shelf option without any US intanglements.

Su-30 / Mig-29M already have ability to employ guided ammunition from the base version. Ofc, again, not as advanced as with Damocles - but still it would be wrong to speak about "double the number of tactical strike assets in the RuAF". It is just an upgrade, which enhances ALREADY present capabilty.

Besides, RuAF dont have single Su-30 at all. Base SU-27 version dont have A-G capability - but cheap SM upgrade already have, without any Damocles pods. Same is true for Mig-29 - base version is not A-G capable, SMT/SMT2 can already employ guided A-G ammunition.

 

[Salty Dog]

Su-30 / Mig-29M already have ability to employ guided ammunition from the base version. Ofc, again, not as advanced as with Damocles - but still it would be wrong to speak about "double the number of tactical strike assets in the RuAF". It is just an upgrade, which enhances ALREADY present capabilty.

Besides, RuAF dont have single Su-30 at all. Base SU-27 version dont have A-G capability - but cheap SM upgrade already have, without any Damocles pods. Same is true for Mig-29 - base version is not A-G capable, SMT/SMT2 can already employ guided A-G ammunition.

Since Su-34 has the same weapons payload as the Su-30/33/35, I feel the extra weight is mainly due to a larger fuel capacity.

So exactly what A-G suite does the Su-34 have?

 

[Ozzy Blizzard]

Su-30 / Mig-29M already have ability to employ guided ammunition from the base version. Ofc, again, not as advanced as with Damocles - but still it would be wrong to speak about "double the number of tactical strike assets in the RuAF". It is just an upgrade, which enhances ALREADY present capabilty.

AFAIK MiG-29M is only capable of EO guided weapons. Therefore they can not utilise LGB's i.e. not an existing capability, thats a big difference.

Besides, RuAF dont have single Su-30 at all. Base SU-27 version dont have A-G capability - but cheap SM upgrade already have, without any Damocles pods. Same is true for Mig-29 - base version is not A-G capable, SMT/SMT2 can already employ guided A-G ammunition.

Again AFAIK they were all capable of A2G, but unguided stuff. M/SM versionsare EO capable which is not comperable to LGB.

 

[Chrom]

AFAIK MiG-29M is only capable of EO guided weapons. Therefore they can not utilise LGB's i.e. not an existing capability, thats a big difference.

No, they are perfectly capable of LGB and LGM - f.e. KAB-500L and Kh-29L. I think this info is available on just about every info page about Mig-29M / Su-27SM .

Again AFAIK they were all capable of A2G, but unguided stuff. M/SM versionsare EO capable which is not comperable to LGB.

Again, both Mig-29M and Su-27SM are capable of LGB. It is 100% sure.

Ofc, every aircraft since WW2 can carry unguided bombs.

P.S. Basically, SM upgrade is broadly same tech as Su-30MK2.
P.P.S. I think the pod is required to employ more advanced ammunitions , for large designation range and more difficult weather conditions.

 

[Ozzy Blizzard]

No, they are perfectly capable of LGB and LGM - f.e. KAB-500L and Kh-29L. I think this info is available on just about every info page about Mig-29M / Su-27SM .



Again, both Mig-29M and Su-27SM are capable of LGB. It is 100% sure.

Ofc, every aircraft since WW2 can carry unguided bombs.

P.S. Basically, SM upgrade is broadly same tech as Su-30MK2.
P.P.S. I think the pod is required to employ more advanced ammunitions with

Could they just carry the LGB's or self desingate? If they could self designate what kit was it done with? AFAIK the RuAf lacked a EO targeting pod that allowed fleet wide self designation capability, hence the need to aquire Damocles.

 

[Chrom]

Could they just carry the LGB's or self desingate? If they could self designate what kit was it done with? AFAIK the RuAf lacked a EO targeting pod that allowed fleet wide self designation capability, hence the need to aquire Damocles.

1. There were targeting pods before Damocles, you know ?

2. With IRST laser rangefinder. It is dual-purpose. P.S. I think there are some limitations due to less than ideal laser placement for A-G designations.

3. How do you think Su-30MK/MK2 can use LGB? Without Damocles?

4. Right now russians do not have fleet-wide guided ammunition capability for fighters. Few SU-27SM and Mig-29M/SMT dont make difference. However, ALL Su-24M's have such capability, as well as newly upgraded Tu-22M5 and Tu-160.

 

[kams]

3. How do you think Su-30MK/MK2 can use LGB? Without Damocles?

.

IAF MKI use Rafael Litening pod.

 

[Chrom]

IAF MKI use Rafael Litening pod.

And? I'm 100% sure it can designate for russian LG ammunition without Litening too. Su-30MK/MK2 dont have Litening but still perfectly capable of using LGBs and LGMs.

Plus, as i said, pod is better than intergrated IRST designator - pod have no problems to designate from low-alt, level flight.

 

[kams]

And? I'm 100% sure it can designate for russian LG ammunition without Litening too. Su-30MK/MK2 dont have Litening but still perfectly capable of using LGBs and LGMs.

Plus, as i said, pod is better than intergrated IRST designator - pod have no problems to designate from low-alt, level flight.

What is the effective range of Laser Rage finder in OLS-27? Su30 MKI use Russian LG/TG bombs with Litening.

 

[Chrom]

What is the effective range of Laser Rage finder in OLS-27? Su30 MKI use Russian LG/TG bombs with Litening.

For LRF i seen figures "up to 10-15km" depending on weather conditions on relatively new aircraft, and about 6-8km for basic version. About same range for laser guiding.

For MKI i know. As i said, pod is better than integrated LRF.

 

[tphuang]

hmm, this is not a good idea to use OLS-27. Check up SAPSAN-E, that's what the mkk use to do targetting. And the thing is that the Russians took so long to finish it's development. I remember seeing su-34 using another type of Russian developed targetting pod. Forgot the name, it was on afm a while back.

Since Su-34 has the same weapons payload as the Su-30/33/35, I feel the extra weight is mainly due to a larger fuel capacity.

So exactly what A-G suite does the Su-34 have?

oh no, they may state as 8000 kg for everyone, but su-34 should have far better range x payload numbers than su-30/35. A mkk carrying 8000 kg might be able to take off, fly a couple of circles and then forced to land. In general, the weapons should be the same, the radar is more geared for A2G action and so are the other part of the avionics.

 

[Ozzy Blizzard]

1. There were targeting pods before Damocles, you know ?

Yeah and which one was being used by MiG 29M before the introduction of Damocles? That was my original question.

2. With IRST laser rangefinder. It is dual-purpose. P.S. I think there are some limitations due to less than ideal laser placement for A-G designations.

Thats not going to work for most of your own LGB's, due to the placement of the IRST on the Flanker & Fulcrum families. The platform is going to have to dive on the target untill the weapon impacts, which isnt really feasible due to altitude limitations, i.e. unter the clouds.

3. How do you think Su-30MK/MK2 can use LGB? Without Damocles?

Theres a difference between being LBG capable and haveing a self desingation capability. Take the RAAF's F-111 fleet as an example. The F-111C's carry the Pave Tack EO targetng pod, they have a self designation capability, the F-111G's do not. Now they are all LGB capable, meaning they can carry Paveway bombs but without an F-111C in the package or someone on the ground designateing the target said capability is useless. Thats what i meant by self designation capability. A platform can be LGB capable without it.

4. Right now russians do not have fleet-wide guided ammunition capability for fighters. Few SU-27SM and Mig-29M/SMT dont make difference. However, ALL Su-24M's have such capability, as well as newly upgraded Tu-22M5 and Tu-160.

Really, i thought there were planns to run the a large chunck of the MiG-29 fleet through the SMT programme, makeing them all multirole (needeing a targeting pod)?

Anyway i doubt the Tu-160 will be doing much LGB work, as its a strategic strike asset rather than tactical. Unless Ivan's planing to use them as CAS assets ala B-52??? They have to be a hell of alot lower in most occasions to utilise LGB's as opposed to GPS/INS.

 

[Ozzy Blizzard]

What is the effective range of Laser Rage finder in OLS-27? Su30 MKI use Russian LG/TG bombs with Litening.

You can use any LGB's with most contmporary EO targeting pod's. All of them just need to see a laser, just depends on the fequency setting.

 

[tphuang]

you probably want to search up SAPSAN-E and APK-9 pods. The first one is definitely a stand-alone EO Targeting pod for TV-GB and LGBs. And the latter I think is only a datalink pod that still relies on FLIR/SAR, although it has been around longer.

 

[Ozzy Blizzard]

you probably want to search up SAPSAN-E and APK-9 pods. The first one is definitely a stand-alone EO Targeting pod for TV-GB and LGBs. And the latter I think is only a datalink pod that still relies on FLIR/SAR, although it has been around longer.

AFAIK its only designed for the Flanker family and is comperable to a 2nd gen western design???