Royal New Zealand Navy Discussions and Updates

Todjaeger

Potstirrer
wouldn't a cheap ansew be to fit it with concreat baleast to reduse the rolling as its not going to travelling with a full load all the time like a north sea ferry
I have a few questions have regarding putting additional ballast aboard the HMNZS Canterbury to try and solve stability issues.

From what I understand, it seems that the stability issues only occur when the Canterbury is not carrying an embarked army co & equipment. Therefore, it would seem to make sense that additional ballast would equal the tonnage of the army co/equipment. However, would the ballast be able to be embarked/disembarked? And if so, how quickly?

Not being an engineer, I am only assuming that any weight carried in ballast would either reduce the amount of available cargo (weight, not necessarily space) to carry an army unit, or have a negative impact on ship buoyancy when the army unit is embarked, or perhaps effect the amount of stores carried.

Also, does anyone know how quickly the Canterbury can change between different roles at present?

-Cheers
 

swerve

Super Moderator
Given that the National Party policy seems to have improved lift as one of its aims and the navy's need for an addtional surface combatant I would have thought the Absalon would be a viable option. Such a vessel could supplement the Canterbury's heavy lift capability with light infantry (Given the lack of medium LC). The only disadvantage is the Absalon reduced speed, but its only just below with the ANZAC project specifications
Actually, an Absalon can carry heavy vehicles, including Leopard 2, though both troop-carrying & cargo capacity are a bit less (of course - a smaller ship) & could perform the patrol tasks far better than Canterbury. The main drawback I can see is cost - but that is a big drawback.
 

Sea Toby

New Member
How quickly can the Canterbury change roles? As quickly as it takes the army to embark upon the Canterbury, and how quickly the ship sails to the port the army will embark. A day? Maybe two days. I can't believe it will take more than three days. 20 knots times 24 hours is 480 miles times three days equals 1440 miles. Of course nautical miles are a bit different.

Considering the number of ships in New Zealand's fleet, adding another class of warships at this time will probably cause a personnel shortage, if it hasn't happened already. The Project Protector ships, all seven of them, consume the personnel to man another frigate.

I would think the P-3 Orions would cover much more ground, I mean seas, faster than any ship. The key improvement would be to arrest any illegal fishing vessels, an airplane can only take pictures. I would think any ship with a 25-mm Bushmaster gun would scare any illegal fishing vessels.
 
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Tasman

Ship Watcher
Verified Defense Pro
However, I believe this year Te Kaha and Te Mana are going to receive their 25-mm Typhoons, installed both starboard and port by the bridge superstructure. Its a similar gun compared to the guns installed in Project Protector's MRV and OPVs.
Are they getting the 25mm Typhoon or the 12.7mm Mini Typhoon? My earlier info was that the Mini Typhoon was to be fitted. The 25mm gun would certainly provide a step up in firepower.

Tas
 

Nighthawknz

New Member
Are they getting the 25mm Typhoon or the 12.7mm Mini Typhoon? My earlier info was that the Mini Typhoon was to be fitted. The 25mm gun would certainly provide a step up in firepower.

Tas
This from the Typhoon website

New Zealand Improves ANZAC
Force Protection With Mini-Typhoon

The Royal New Zealand Navy (RNZN) is to fit the Mini-Typhoon remote-controlled weapon station aboard its two ANZAC frigates HMNZS Te Kaha and HMNZS Te Mana.

A contract for the system, valued at about USD3.5 million, was placed with Rafael, Israel’s Armament Development Authority, in December 2006. Installation is planned to be undertaken on Te Mana in late 2007 and Te Kaha and early 2008.

According to the RNZN, the service is procuring the Mini-Typhoon system to enhance protection capability against fast inshore attack craft (FIACs) and other surface threats. follows recent operational experience in the Arabian Gulf, in support of Operation ‘Enduring Freedom’, which highlighted a gap in layered defence in the surface domain.

Mini-Typhoon consists of three principal subsystems: the stabilised weapon station itself, based on a 0.50cal machine gun; the TopLite electro-optical director (combining TV and infrared cameras and an eyesafe laser rangefinder in an above-decks sensor head); and a main control panel fitted in the operations room. The intended RNZN configuration for its ANZAC frigates comprises two Mini-Typhoon weapon stations and a single TopLite director per ship.

According to the RNZN, the new system will provide “for force protection from FIACs and is a piracy deterrent, whilst also providing an enhanced passive surveillance capability, including range detection and fire control solution generation”. It adds: “Mini-Typhoon can detect, identify, warn off, engage, neutralise and destroy threats. All this is achieved independently of existing ship’s systems, adding another layer of redundancy and enhancing protection and survivability characteristics.”

The RNZN’s decision to acquire Mini-Typhoon follows in the footsteps of the Royal Australian Navy, which has already fitted the system to Adelaide-class and ANZAC-class frigates deployed to the Gulf theatre. Aboard RAN ANZAC ships, two Mini-Typhoon weapon stations are installed port and starboard on the aft edge of the hangar roof, with two TopLite electro-optical directors fitted on tripod masts above the bridge and on the hangar roof. Twin consoles and associated display units are fitted in the ship’s operations room.
 

alexsa

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
I have a few questions have regarding putting additional ballast aboard the HMNZS Canterbury to try and solve stability issues.

From what I understand, it seems that the stability issues only occur when the Canterbury is not carrying an embarked army co & equipment. Therefore, it would seem to make sense that additional ballast would equal the tonnage of the army co/equipment. However, would the ballast be able to be embarked/disembarked? And if so, how quickly?

Not being an engineer, I am only assuming that any weight carried in ballast would either reduce the amount of available cargo (weight, not necessarily space) to carry an army unit, or have a negative impact on ship buoyancy when the army unit is embarked, or perhaps effect the amount of stores carried.

Also, does anyone know how quickly the Canterbury can change between different roles at present?

-Cheers
Given this is a modified cargo vessel design it should have had a reasonable sea water ballast capability built into the original design as cargo vesel are requried to be stabe even in 'ballast' condition. It could be that the ballast capacity of the MRV version has been altered in order to adapt it to this role. For instance if additional bunker capacity has been provided in lieu of water ballast tanks it is posible the vessel will have a greater free surface moment than orignally intended in the parent design. This is because fuel tanks are often slack because of use and to allow for expansion while ballast tanks can be pressed up (i.e. no free surface effect).

If this is the case consumption of fuel will result in a reduced CoG as will any free surface.
 

Sea Toby

New Member
There is a big difference in weights, between fully loaded and lightly loaded, at least a thousand tons displacement. Look at how much trouble the Anzacs and O.H. Perrys are having with weights with their upgrades. Most navies sail their amphibious ships fully loaded, not many use them as a multi-role patrol ship either. Maybe its asking too much.
 

alexsa

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Ther seems to be a misconception here. Merchant ships (remembering the MPV is based on a short haul ferry) are generally not designed to sail full or empty but with a variety of loads. wheter eh shi is stable doe snot necesarily depnd onthe mass laod but how it is laoded and the condition of the the ships tanks at any given time. Slack tanks (bunkers, lube oil and potable water etc) can significantly reduce stabiliyt depending on the design (including shape), size and position of the tank.

Wven a ship wiht large residual stabiliyt inthe ballast condition can find itself in trouble is inappropraitly laoded for the voayge noting that planning must take into account all condtions during the voyage. Most merchant ship officers are pretty good at this (I say most becasue ther have been a few spetacular failures) but from my experaicne naval officers have little experaince in this regard. This is partly a training issue but also becasue warships do not have the large variationin displacment to deal with and naval officers have not had to deal wiht this. A warship of 120m long may have a maximum operational (lets face it I am not looking at docking condition here) variation in dispalcment of 500 tonnes. A general cargo ship/feeder container vessel of the same size will have an operational varaition in displacement of up about 8000 tonnes. Load it wrong and it gets nasty.

http://www.cargolaw.com/2007nightmare_genoa.html

The MRV is a merchant hull based on the MV Ben My chee RO RO design. RO-RO vessel gnerally have a low DWT compared to a genral crago ship but it has a DWT of over 4500 tonnes (cargo, crew, fuel and stores) on a displacement of 8000 tonnes.

http://www.ship-technology.com/projects/ben/

Ignore the GRT as this is a theoretical measurement for regulatory purposes. As such the vesel is uplifting almost half it mass in DWT and must be laoded carefully. Things get trickier if ballast tanks are converted to fuel as you will have more slack tanks as ballast is geranlly 'pressed up' (I don't know if this has been done but it may have been due to the need for range). However the characteristics of the vessel wouldahve been modelled as part of the approval of its stability information and in relation to the intended operating profile. Givne the ship is built to class this would have had to comply wiht the IMO criteria but this does not mean the will behave the same way in a seaway in all cargo/fuel/stores configurations and this is where cargo planning comes into it. If the crew are doing ther job the ship should not proceed to sea unles the calculated stability for the vessel complies tihthe IMO critiera and it can do so at all time during the voyage.

This being said cargo vessel because of their carrying cpacity compared to size can behave in a variety of ways depending on their condition. The ship may be very stiff (which means it will whip upright very quickly), or very tender (which means the vesel tends to role slow but hesitate before coming upright) but still comply wiht the stabiliyt criteria. If a particular roll period is desired for operatins then the ships crew need to plan for it as the simple process of changing DB fuel tanks can make a slighty tender ship much more tender due to the impact of free surface.

Basically it is quite posible the design has met the criteria set for it but this means there are operating imitations that the officers need to be congnisant of. I am a littel concnered that the problems noted in this forum may be due in part to inexperiance in operating merchant type vessels and ahving worked in both the navy and merchant navy i can honestly say naval officers are not trained for this sort of work in my experiance.
 

Lucasnz

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Project Protector Issues

TV 3 has made a number of reports lately on Project Protector, including an interview with the Sec of Defence. Links to the video feeds are below for those interested. The latest report suggests that saftey issues may extend to the OPV and IPV.

HMNZS Canterbury & OPV's (Leaked report)
http://www.tv3.co.nz/VideoBrowseAll/NationalVideo/tabid/309/articleID/45172/cat/41/Default.aspx#video

Sec of Defence Interview
http://www.tv3.co.nz/Video/ExtendedfootageofDefenceMinistryinterview/tabid/309/articleID/45086/cat/41/Default.aspx

The Ministry of Defence should have stuck to the tried and proven acquistion policy of purchasing proven designs and equipment.
 

Nighthawknz

New Member
TV 3 has made a number of reports lately on Project Protector, including an interview with the Sec of Defence. Links to the video feeds are below for those interested. The latest report suggests that saftey issues may extend to the OPV and IPV.

HMNZS Canterbury & OPV's (Leaked report)
http://www.tv3.co.nz/VideoBrowseAll/NationalVideo/tabid/309/articleID/45172/cat/41/Default.aspx#video

Sec of Defence Interview
http://www.tv3.co.nz/Video/ExtendedfootageofDefenceMinistryinterview/tabid/309/articleID/45086/cat/41/Default.aspx

The Ministry of Defence should have stuck to the tried and proven acquistion policy of purchasing proven designs and equipment.

yes saw that and then seent an email to yah was something along the lines of

"Well hearing the news and the safety reports on all the Project Protector Vessels not sounding to promising... F#@k" :D oh well NZ is use to getting cut backs and cheap crap... however I am sure the navy will make do
 
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Norm

Member
HMNZ Canterbury

Extensive 30 Minute Radio NZ Interview with Phil Goff NZ Minister of Defence on the issues surrounding the introduction of HMNZS Canterburyand then a follow up interview with Jack Walsh Retired Rear Admiral.Canterbury is a Stiff ship which will make life interesting in heavy sea states.Here is the link .

http://www.radionz.co.nz/search?sea...hil+Goff&search_page_23819_submit_button=Go+›
Alternate search Radio NZ Audio using Phil Goff to locate.

Also heard first IPV delayed as its having a complete rewire,take 2 months.
 

alexsa

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Extensive 30 Minute Radio NZ Interview with Phil Goff NZ Minister of Defence on the issues surrounding the introduction of HMNZS Canterburyand then a follow up interview with Jack Walsh Retired Rear Admiral.Canterbury is a Stiff ship which will make life interesting in heavy sea states.Here is the link .

http://www.radionz.co.nz/search?sea...hil+Goff&search_page_23819_submit_button=Go+›
Alternate search Radio NZ Audio using Phil Goff to locate.

Also heard first IPV delayed as its having a complete rewire,take 2 months.
Now I have heard everything. Sorry I was concerned about the ship being tender, but too stiff is a staggering admission and one I suspect is due to how the ship is operated.

This is basically a converted cargo ship design (a RO-PAX in fact), if during voyage planning (lets hope they actually do it) the find the Area under the GZ curve is too great, or the initial GM is too large they should be able to change this by removing ballast, slacking tanks and/or (better still) simply loading some cargo above the CoG. Again given the fact merchant hulls are capable of a signficant uplift in relation to their displacement and have signficant cargo areas then weight distribution will need to be considered for all voyayes and one should not rely on 'standard conditions'.

Design will determine whether a ship is naturally stiff or tender in the ballast condition. Most designs tend to be stiff in the ballast condition as this assumes all tanks are pressed up and recognises that stability can be easily reduced by changing weight distribution. If the design was normally quite tender in ballast I suspect most commercial ship owners would be quite unhappy withit as it would make it difficult to laod the ship safely and increases the potentail for accidents.

If the design is so stiff that its motion is too active regardsless of weight distribution this is a real problem, however, given it has been indicated the ship is OK with army equipement loaded this appear not to be the case. I suspect the operating conditions, in respect to laod out, and how the RNZN intend to use the vessel may be an issue.
 

mug

New Member
From NZ Herald:

Aussies surface for a look at us (+photos)
5:00AM Tuesday February 12, 2008

The Aussies are here ... and if you weren't watching closely, you didn't see them coming.

For these sailors, a trip "down under" means going beneath the sea in one of one of the largest and most sophisticated conventionally powered submarines in the world. Their ship is the submarine HMAS Rankin, known as "the Black Knight", and it popped up in the Waitemata Harbour on its way to Devonport Naval Base, where it will spend two weeks on a maintenance visit.

Royal NZ Navy officer Dave Barr said the Australians were looking forward to their time in New Zealand waters. Most Australian submarine operations took place in Perth, so visits to Auckland were rare.

The last Australian submarine to visit Auckland was HMAS Farnscombe in 2005.

- NZ HERALD STAFF
A few good pics on this page too.
 

Lucasnz

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Project Protector

I was down at the University Library studying (again) and looked up some documents I found in relation to Project Protector, which I summarise for everyone's interest.

Ministry of Defence, Evaluation Division, Naval Personnel Planning for Post Protector FleetDated 7/2/2005 Report No 2/2005.
Page 4 - The navy submitted to CDF in June 2003 a proposal to increase the services finanical baseline to enable personnel levels to be restored and sustained. CDF instead instructed the navy to reduce personnel to 1800 in order to stay with the 04-05 Budget. (Navy regular force personnel as at 30/6/2003 was 1978).
Page 8 - 2 1/2 to 3 years to train a brigde watch keeper.

Report Conclusion - The navy has handled the personnel issues associated with Project Protector well.

Ministry of Defence, Evaluation Division,Reveiw of major multi agency project 21 July 2004, Report 10/04

III - Most of the patrol vessel capability is being acquired to meet the needs of a number of civil agencies. There is no direct military requirement for these vessels.
IV - A second stage of the review was to have undertaken, but this did not occur, apparently as a consequence of the need to proced rapidly with the acquistion of vessels to meet civil agency patrol requirements and to replace HMNZS Canterbury. The failure to undertake the second stage resulted in incomplete policy and capability analysis and an incomplete business case. This lead to problems later in the project. One of the main disputes was whether there was a over the bench requirement for vehicles. In addition agencies questioned the justification for a helicopter capability and whether the MRV needed to resupply Scott Base.
-Weapons capability was also questions but little was said on this. The impression I got was that some of the capability questions came of the Department of Prime Minister (DPMC).
IV - When a broadly defined capability is being acquired then a clearly defined item of equipment there are limits on the datea that can be obtained on through life costs.
Page 51 - One official said the government did not require an over the taticial sealift capability and that Defence the governments policy and treasury questioned the capability in July 2002.
Page 52 - Goverment Defence statement in May 2001 however confirmed the requirement.

Overall I found the reports interesting. There are some areas I haven't written down. Inter service and departmental arguements were evident in some areas.
 

recce.k1

Well-Known Member
I wonder how the much-criticised MRV will fare on the voyage and training operations.
I hazard a guess that the new MRV will generally perform its tactical sealift role well, or at least it will be another great training opportunity for the crew to learn and improve on operational procedures and work with other Navies experienced in tactical sealift etc. No doubt the crew will give the usual kiwi 101% and see the Commander proud.

However how she fairs in rough weather, is the real concern, as expressed by others here recently. Some of the design flaws may be a grave concern. Let's hope they get rectified properly. Such as the RHIB alcove issue (and water tight issue). Surely the proposed solution of putting a door over the RHIB alcove should have been done in the first place (I suppose in laymans terms the force of any wave hitting the open alcove will result in a tremendous force bouncing back where it came from taking the RHIB with it (or maybe entering the ship), unlike on say a frigate where the force will be dispersed up/down/around/along the deck etc) but whether this will stop any water getting in further, it will be interesting to see what changes will need to be done.


Page 4 - The navy submitted to CDF in June 2003 a proposal to increase the services finanical baseline to enable personnel levels to be restored and sustained. CDF instead instructed the navy to reduce personnel to 1800 in order to stay with the 04-05 Budget.
Well that (bleep) sez it all. Navy sez "we need an additional X tens of millions to sustain a fully operational Navy". CDF, who like any CEO has certain financial constraints to work under, and upon whose job performance is based on, cannot possibly make this happen. Like a State Owned Enterprise or a Corporate or Commercial operation, the Navy has to shed staff to keep within budget and keep the (Govt) stakeholders happy. Navy suffers. NZDF suffers. But it is no problem because from another budget the Govt will instead inject $4.7 BILLION to the NZDF (overall) to address such issues long term. Talk about the good old ambulance at the bottom of the cliff scenario. (But hats off to former CDF and others in successfully making the case for the cash injection).

III - Most of the patrol vessel capability is being acquired to meet the needs of a number of civil agencies. There is no direct military requirement for these vessels.
This must be from the same git who directed the initial Maritime Patrol Review, totally downplaying the military aspects and contradicted some of the advice provided by the armed services in their submissions (in the appendices). The Review was directed by the Dept of Prime Minister and Cabinet, if i recall correctly, if so, so there you go, there's the conflict of interest.


IV - A second stage of the review was to have undertaken, but this did not occur, apparently as a consequence of the need to proced rapidly with the acquistion of vessels to meet civil agency patrol requirements and to replace HMNZS Canterbury.
Which is what you get when one ignores the advice/request from the Navy to LEASE a vessel for training to fill the gap when Frigate Canterbury was decommissioned in 2005 and the new Protector fleet was to become operational in 2006, make that 2007, err, make that 2008.

The failure to undertake the second stage resulted in incomplete policy and capability analysis and an incomplete business case. This lead to problems later in the project. One of the main disputes was whether there was a over the bench requirement for vehicles. In addition agencies questioned the justification for a helicopter capability and whether the MRV needed to resupply Scott Base.
This "Whole Of Government" approach sure did give the opinionated nutcakes their opportunity to tell Defence how to do its job. Questioning helicopter capability or resupplying Scott Base, oh pleeaaazeee! Maybe Defence can have the opportunity to tell other Govt agencies how to do their jobs, perhaps?

-Weapons capability was also questions but little was said on this. The impression I got was that some of the capability questions came of the Department of Prime Minister (DPMC).
There they are again, the non experts directing the experts they can't have their 76mm guns and fire control systems. Talk about political interference.

I suppose if East Timor implodes one day and if Indonesia decides to stabilise ET by force, the OPV's won't be able to provide escort, evacuation or shore bomardment. Hopefully an ANZAC Frigate won't be in dry dock or exercising in the Gulf or Indian Ocean at the time etc.

Page 51 - One official said the government did not require an over the taticial sealift capability and that Defence the governments policy and treasury questioned the capability in July 2002.
Page 52 - Goverment Defence statement in May 2001 however confirmed the requirement.
Too bad that official didn't read the Govt Defence Statement from the year before (obviously got caught out i.e. knew there was no whitepaper or properly formed policy thus concluded Sealift wasn't required. Must have forgotten all the DPMC has to do is issue a brief Statement, which is then the defacto policy. :D
But seriously, the "Whole Of Government" approach is becoming a joke if some officials use the opportunity to get on their soap box. No (beep) wonder the Air Force hasn't been able to get these agencies to agree on the medium range air patrol aircraft as per the Govt's Defence Long Term Development Plan.
 
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Lucasnz

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Interesting reading - are they in the Auckland Uni library?
No they're at the Otago University Hocken Library. As the Library is the University's historical collection you probably won't be able to get them on inter Library Loan.
 

mug

New Member
More of an NZDF article, but the last half is naval. From Stuff:

Committee concerned about defence force staff levels
NZPA | Saturday, 16 February 2008

A parliamentary committee is worried that the Defence Force might not be big enough to carry out all jobs it has to do, and that staffing problems are affecting its abilities.

The foreign affairs and defence select committee said in a review report released yesterday the high number of deployments was having an effect on the force's ability to rejuvenate its capability.

It said it supported the work being carried out by personnel deployed in Afghanistan, East Timor and the Solomon Islands.

"However, we are concerned that the Defence Force may not be large enough to complete all the activities required of it," the committee said.
"For instance, we were told that five land combat support units were staffed at less than 80 percent in 2006/07, with the 1NZ Military Intelligence company staffed at only 41 percent".

The committee said recruitment and retention was still a "significant challenge" for the Defence Force.

"While service personnel numbers have increased generally, market shortages in some specific trades, such as marine technicians, continue to affect the Defence Force's ability to fill positions," it said.

"We were told that there are serious shortages in some critical trades and that retention of personnel in these trades remains a significant problem for the Defence Force."

The committee also reported on the seven ships being acquired under Project Protector, and said it had asked for the final costs.

"We understand that the estimated costs for the vessels are $177.426 million for the multi-role vessel, $89.718 million for each of the offshore patrol vessels, and $35.784 million for each of the inshore patrol vessels," it said.

"We question the provision of only the estimates, given that the project is almost complete, and we believe that the ministry should have a firmer understanding of the costs to which it is committed."
 
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