Saudi considers T-95 MBTs?

SaudiArabian

New Member
and what was the conclusion? AFAIK they were neither rejected nor purchased.
read reply #21 on the following thread
http://www.defencetalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=904&page=2


Can we confirm one point - Saudi is "restricted" to deploy M1 Abrams in the North West of the Saudi.

The US State Department is never going to allow M1 to meet Merkava, in Saudi's North West, the long-French equipped 12th Armored (AMX-10) and 6th Mechanised (AMX-10P) are awaiting replacement.
the M1A2's were deployed in the north western region in April of 2002 for exercise. there's no restrictions of such kinds as political pressure plays no role in such deployments.
 

eckherl

The Bunker Group
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Okay, thanks for the info.

I have two questions:
- What exactly is the platoon integrated fire control system? A small battlefield management system or something to control direct and indirect fire support?

- If one wants to achieve M1A1HA armor protection without DU armor (The Egypts don't get DU right?) it should get bigger than a normal M1A1HA.


The new TI is defenitely one nice piece of equipment.
I always wondered why the AIM upgrade doesn't include a periscope for the TC like on the M1A2s.
It is just that, a battlefield managment system. The armor upgrade will most certainly not recieve DU plating and may consist of a modular design placed at the 60 degree frontal and turret sides.

I wonder why Australia never went with the Panoramic sight, they do have the mount for it. Either way they do have a darn good tank with true armor protection capabilities, no export models for them.:D
 

eaf-f16

New Member
I assume that the Saudi government has had the chance to evaluate the T-95, is there any information that has been conveyed on the capabilities of T-95.
The Saudis evaluated the T-90 not the T-95. The T-95 test was a false report, I think.
 

eckherl

The Bunker Group
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The Saudis evaluated the T-90 not the T-95. The T-95 test was a false report, I think.
That is what I figured and was also informed, @Izzy lead me to assume that maybe Saudi Arabia did in fact test T-95. The Russians (a general) is stating that their new tank will roll out for production in the year 2009.
 

eaf-f16

New Member
the M1A2's were deployed in the north western region in April of 2002 for exercise. there's no restrictions of such kinds as political pressure plays no role in such deployments.
There is political pressure on Saudi Arabia from the US not deploy hardware in the North-Western region. It's just that the Saudis don't care. IIRC, RSAF broke an agreement when they deployed their F-15S Strike Eagle aircraft in Tabuk.
 

Izzy1

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There is political pressure on Saudi Arabia from the US not deploy hardware in the North-Western region. It's just that the Saudis don't care. IIRC, RSAF broke an agreement when they deployed their F-15S Strike Eagle aircraft in Tabuk.
I'm positively certain you could quote the contract word-by-word EAF.

What is it with you? Isn't Saudi allowed to defend its territory like everyone else?
 

Izzy1

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I'm positively certain you could quote the contract word-by-word EAF.

What is it with you? Isn't Saudi allowed to defend its territory like everyone else?
Getting back on topic.

The SANG did seriously consider the T-90. King Abdullah's wish for an armoured SANG Brigade centres around such a deal. However, with the US Dollar at an all time low agaisnt the Saudi Riyal - Abrams is firmly back on the list.

The helicopter deal for Mi-17 and Mi-35 is on ice too - Russian spares, tech and support also don't have the greatest track record.

Ask the UAE - nearly 75% of their BMP-3 are now nowhere near combat effective. Rumour has it they want rid of their BMP-3 and Le Clerc MBT, seeing a future in wheeled AMVs.
 
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eckherl

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The SANG are considering the T-90 and T-95. The helicopter deal for Mi-17 and Mi-35 is on ice however - Russian spares and support don't have the greatest track record.

Ask the UAE - nearly 75% of their BMP-3 are now nowhere near combat effective. Rumour has it they want rid of their BMP-3 and Le Clercs, seeing a future in wheeled AMVs.
What issues are they running into with their BMP 3s and Leclercs, are they looking at any certain country for wheeled AMVs procurements.
 

Izzy1

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That is what I figured and was also informed, @Izzy lead me to assume that maybe Saudi Arabia did in fact test T-95. The Russians (a general) is stating that their new tank will roll out for production in the year 2009.
I hold my hand up - they tested a T-90 variant and it didn't do amazingly well. For the SANG however, it was a genuine leap forward in capability.

But the fundemental point now is the US Dollar rate - upgrdaded M1A1s are very tempting. Look at Egypt's very recent buy.
 

eaf-f16

New Member
I'm positively certain you could quote the contract word-by-word EAF.

What is it with you? Isn't Saudi allowed to defend its territory like everyone else?
Must you be an idiot? :rolleyes:

Link

The Saudi decision this March to deploy F-15 aircraft to Tabuk, a base in Northwest Saudi Arabia, some 150 kilometers from Israel, is a case in point. So is the fact that Saudi Arabia held its first joint exercises near the Gulf of Aqaba in October, although these exercises were far smaller and less impressive than some critics seem to feel.

Critics of the moves make several points. Saudi Arabia did agree not to deploy the F-15s to Tabuk in 1992 as one of the conditions for the purchase of additional aircraft. The base is not yet properly equipped and structured to support the F-15, and the move was something of a political gesture -- although there are good military reasons for the change as well.
Here's another article stating that there were restrictions on Saudi F-15 deployment in Tabuk:

Link

By deploying F-15 strike aircraft to a northwestern airbase in March 2003 and holding large combined-arms exercises near the Gulf of Aqaba in mid-October, Saudi Arabia has indicated its desire to act more freely in asserting its territorial sovereignty vis-à-vis Israel. These actions -- which Washington and Riyadh might previously have attempted to restrain -- are visible symptoms of the scaling back of U.S.-Saudi military-to-military ties. Although Riyadh's decision to alter longstanding tacit agreements regarding the posture of Saudi forces will not significantly affect the regional military balance, such a move may make Washington more reluctant to offer future arms sales and military support to the kingdom.

Background

In 1978, Carter administration plans to sell ninety-one F-15C/D strike aircraft to Saudi Arabia sparked a bitter debate. In May of that year, the sale was approved by Congress in a narrow 54-to-44 vote, and only after Riyadh accepted restrictions that limited its ability to deploy the aircraft against Israel. Specifically, the aircraft were not to be equipped with conformal fuel tanks (CFTs), preventing them from carrying extra fuel and a full weapons load simultaneously. Riyadh also agreed to refrain from basing the aircraft at the northwestern Tabuk airbase, some 150 kilometers from Israel. In 1992, sales of seventy-two even more advanced F-15S aircraft were placed under the same restrictions; in addition, the tactical early warning suite carried by these aircraft was downgraded to reduce its potential effectiveness against Israeli missiles.

The record of implementation for these restrictions, however, is poor. In 1981, the first shipment of F-15C/Ds to Saudi Arabia did in fact include a small number of CFTs. That same year witnessed the controversial sale of AWACS command and control aircraft to Riyadh, which Congress authorized by an even narrower 52-to-48 vote. In the mid-1990s, the Saudi F-15S fleet was further augmented by sales of special CFTs with weapons hardpoints, allowing the aircraft to carry more weapons at longer ranges. Therefore, when the kingdom deployed fifty F-15Ss to Tabuk airbase in March 2003, it neutralized the final safeguard of Israel's strategic depth and contravened a restriction that had been placed on F-15 sales since 1978.
I was just stating fact...

What do you have to back your statement besides your accusation that I hate Saudi (which I don't)?
 
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Chrom

New Member
What issues are they running into with their BMP 3s and Leclercs, are they looking at any certain country for wheeled AMVs procurements.
Wheeled AMV in UAE instead of tracked? What a joke. I can believe UAE intention to aquire some wheeled AMV - but certainly not instead of tracked. Also, UAE just made upgrade for BMP-3 - i pretty much doubt they would do that if planned to get rid of them.
 

Izzy1

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What issues are they running into with their BMP 3s and Leclercs, are they looking at any certain country for wheeled AMVs procurements.
Janes reported several months back that the UAE was considering off-loading their Le Clercs for more 'flexible' platforms.

Their BMP-3s initially proved their worth, however anyone who travels up Higway 1 will see the armour sheds full of BMP-3 undergoing maintenance.

According to Janes, the UAE now wants wheeled AFV and in numbers. Their recent Patria AMV 8x8 order seems to underline the trend - a number of which will be fitted with ex-UAE-BMP-3 Turrets.

As for the Le Clercs, Libya looks a possible sale - with Iraq maybe receiveing a battalions worth as a gift.
 

eckherl

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Wheeled AMV in UAE instead of tracked? What a joke. I can believe UAE intention to aquire some wheeled AMV - but certainly not instead of tracked. Also, UAE just made upgrade for BMP-3 - i pretty much doubt they would do that if planned to get rid of them.
Yes, I know that they upgraded their BMP-3`s, have you heard of any issue`s that they may be having with them. Also the Greek BMP-3s are supposed to get the new less bulky Russian reactive armor package, is it the same type purchased by UAE or did they go with the older version.
 

Izzy1

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Also, UAE just made upgrade for BMP-3 - i pretty much doubt they would do that if planned to get rid of them.
Not being funny Chrom, but the BMP-3 I seen in the UAE look like they haven't seen an filter in some time.


Seriously, I maybe wrong, but the equation seems:

Russian after sales + Arab military logistics = museum piece.
 

Chrom

New Member
Yes, I know that they upgraded their BMP-3`s, have you heard of any issue`s that they may be having with them. Also the Greek BMP-3s are supposed to get the new less bulky Russian reactive armor package, is it the same type purchased by UAE or did they go with the older version.
Usuall issues - too fragile electronic, guns fairly quckly lose they precision due to extreme heat, etc. Nothing uncommon. Also keep in mind, UAE BMP-3 are fairly old already, 10+ years - and were belonging to 1st generation of BMP-3 with all associated problems relating to new vehicle. Most of them were fixed of course - but neverless. I also suspect "maintenance" is connected to upgrade - after all, these BMP-3 are upgraded in UAE, they dont come back to Russia for that.
 

eckherl

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Janes reported several months back that the UAE was considering off-loading their Le Clercs for more 'flexible' platforms.

Their BMP-3s initially proved their worth, however anyone who travels up Higway 1 will see the armour sheds full of BMP-3 undergoing maintenance.

According to Janes, the UAE now wants wheeled AFV and in numbers. Their recent Patria AMV 8x8 order seems to underline the trend - a number of which will be fitted with ex-UAE-BMP-3 Turrets.

As for the Le Clercs, Libya looks a possible sale - with Iraq maybe receiveing a battalions worth as a gift.
Interesting information, I was told that their may be a few elite Iraqi Army units that will recieve top of the line weapons platforms, that would be something to get them to purchase or recieve Leclercs.:)
 

Chrom

New Member
Interesting information, I was told that their may be a few elite Iraqi Army units that will recieve top of the line weapons platforms, that would be something to get them to purchase or recieve Leclercs.:)
Aye, another joke ;) I mean, if UAE, with relative good personell and a lot of money cant keep these tanks going - how could ruined Iraq do that? It is like giving F-15C to Iraqi hand - not gonna happen any time soon becouse just doesnt make sence.
 

Izzy1

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Aye, another joke ;) I mean, if UAE, with relative good personell and a lot of money cant keep these tanks going - how could ruined Iraq do that? It is like giving F-15C to Iraqi hand - not gonna happen any time soon becouse just doesnt make sence.
The French themselves had to redevelop the Le Clerc for the UAE in the 'Tropique' form. If memory serves, the original variant suffered from severe overheating. Eckherl?
 

Izzy1

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Interesting information, I was told that their may be a few elite Iraqi Army units that will recieve top of the line weapons platforms, that would be something to get them to purchase or recieve Leclercs.:)

Don't get me wrong, that is a projection.

I'm going off Janes. If the UAE's strategic climate suddenly changes - I'm certain they'll keep Le Clerc over their AMV/M-113/BMP-3...

I just don't seeing Saudi or Oman invading them anytime soon.



Well ok, maybe the meglomaniac Saudis. They'll deploy 200,000 flip-flops (and 600,000 Pakistanis to throw them).
 
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