Croatian Armed Forces

[mic of orion]

No used FACs are considered by the CroNavy.

The next major program in this year are the new corvettes, followed by the decision on the next aircraft for the airforce(probably Gripen C/D or E/F).
All those must be chosen by the end of the 2008, so a pretty exciting year for us
There is a possibility of 2 or 4 swedish Goteborgs to be transferred to CroNavy after the Gripen buy.

Yep, Sweden is offering 2 of of their Goteborgs, HMS Gävle and HMS Sundsvall are to be given to Croatian navy if JAS39 deal goes ahead. These 2 ships were just modernized, with upgrades to RB15 and fire control as well as few other things so these two ships can participate in UN ops. other 2 ships where not modernized but missiles removed and few upgrades are planed, but remaining HMS Göteborg K21 and HMS Kalmar K23 will most likely be transfered to Swedish coast guard to act as a fishery protection and coast guard ships.

Sweden needs few coastguard ships and Stockholm and remaining 2 Göteborg class will most likely be transfered to perform coast guard duties. Prevent drug trafficking mainly, but also illegal immigration and other activities.

Swedish navy plans to keep only 5-6 Visby class corvettes.

* HMS Visby
* HMS Helsingborg
* HMS Härnösand
* HMS Nyköping
* HMS Karlstad
* HMS Uddevalla

 

[Ragusian]

Yes, but apart from Visby, they also have plans for a class of bigger warships...

Anyway, recent developments with the Kralj and Koncar RTOPs have made Goteborg's tranfer uncertain.
Our missile gunboats are about to be significantly upgraded with both new radar, new SAM missile defence system and new engines, aswell as upgrades to the RBS-15 missiles. With those modifications, I wonder if there'll be any need in aquiring Goteborgs at all.
With additional 2 or 4 Goteborgs aquired, we may even have too big of a fleet to man. That would mean between 9-11 major surface warships, from today's 3

 

[mic of orion]

Yes, but apart from Visby, they also have plans for a class of bigger warships...

Anyway, recent developments with the Kralj and Koncar RTOPs have made Goteborg's tranfer uncertain.
Our missile gunboats are about to be significantly upgraded with both new radar, new SAM missile defence system and new engines, aswell as upgrades to the RBS-15 missiles. With those modifications, I wonder if there'll be any need in aquiring Goteborgs at all.
With additional 2 or 4 Goteborgs aquired, we may even have too big of a fleet to man. That would mean between 9-11 major surface warships, from today's 3

I was thinking about that as well, but I don't think it should really present major issue, Koncar won't be upgraded much, other 2 are getting new SAM system not sure was it 21 cell RAM luncher or something else forgot now.

Still Koncar might get retired early and transfered to Coastguard, Croatian Coastguard needs quite a few ships, Miran aren't up to the task, Koncar being slightly larger (45m, about 13 m longer than Mirna class) can be more effective as a coast guard ship, in which case, Croatian navy will still have only 4 large gunboats and potentially 2 larger patrol ships, or corvettes.

BTW Koncar has a crew of 32 and Goteborg about 35-40 crew. not big deal if you ask me.

 

[Ragusian]

If and when Koncar goes out of service, it will be sold for scrap. It's too old(commisioned in 78'), small and cramped and expensive to be used as anything closely related to Coast Guard.
Coast Guard was established this year, and all 4 of the Mirnas will be transferred to them. It will also get 2 of the newly built corvettes.
The missile gunboats will probably get the Mistral SAM, along with a new, more powerfull and modern air and surface targeting radars.

I do belive that the additional 2/4 Goteborgs may put the fleet under great pressure in manning and mantainence. It's not just the corvettes, it's also other ships...
In the coming years, the fleet will also get new minehunters, and even possibly new submarines, depending on the final decision of the now newly to be formed government.

 

[Ragusian]

Great news for the croatian military shipbuilding industry. A certain number of representatives from Kraljevica shipyards were visiting France to negotiate a deal on building the bow section of the FREMM frigates and it seems that the deal will be signed soon, with the first bow section starting construction next summer(2008).
I think this could possibly mean a Croatian FREMM in the future. But first, the corvettes please

 

[mic of orion]

Great news for the croatian military shipbuilding industry. A certain number of representatives from Kraljevica shipyards were visiting France to negotiate a deal on building the bow section of the FREMM frigates and it seems that the deal will be signed soon, with the first bow section starting construction next summer(2008).
I think this could possibly mean a Croatian FREMM in the future. But first, the corvettes please

How sure are you, if Croatian shipyards play any role in construction of 17+2 French FREMM and Moroccan FREMM, than Croatia will go for at least 2 FREMM frigates as well. It all depends on value of contract, but bow section houses sonar and few other bits, this might be contract valued at 1 billion euros for Croatian shipyards. I am sure this would preempt Croatian Gov. to seriously consider FREMM Concept instead of Corvettes.

FREMM costs in region of 400 million euros, price is dependent on armaments.

I think Croatia can't afford this just yet, perhaps after 2015.

I'm still skeptical, we'll see.

 

[contedicavour]

Great news for the croatian military shipbuilding industry. A certain number of representatives from Kraljevica shipyards were visiting France to negotiate a deal on building the bow section of the FREMM frigates and it seems that the deal will be signed soon, with the first bow section starting construction next summer(2008).
I think this could possibly mean a Croatian FREMM in the future. But first, the corvettes please

This is outlandish... DCN is pushing to sell Gowind corvettes to Croatia, not FREMM. What on earth would Croatia need 5,700 tonne FFGs (almost DDGs in size) that would absorb all the defence budget allocation for the 3 armed forces for a decade ??? By the way, the real unitary cost for a FREMM once you arm them (excl helicopters) and build the minimum logistics and training support if 560 million euro each.

cheers

 

[Ragusian]

This is outlandish... DCN is pushing to sell Gowind corvettes to Croatia, not FREMM. What on earth would Croatia need 5,700 tonne FFGs (almost DDGs in size) that would absorb all the defence budget allocation for the 3 armed forces for a decade ??? By the way, the real unitary cost for a FREMM once you arm them (excl helicopters) and build the minimum logistics and training support if 560 million euro each.

cheers

They are not pushing anything more . Gowinds are gone as far as our navy is concerned.
I was implying that in the future(in another 7-8 years) there might be a interest in our navy for a couple of FREMMs. It isn't impossible, there were plans for buying 2 Perry class frigates in 2000., those aren't that much smaller(but are/were cheaper).
And yes, FREMMs are pricey, but we could spec them to our needs(RBS-15 for sure) and build them for a lesser price then either french or italians.
I'd rather see a couple of Absalon look-a-likes then FREMMs, but either way, those are good ships.

 

[Totoro]

Kraljevica could, in theory, build parts for the new british carrier but that wouldn't mean croatian navy would eventually want to get one. Even if a deal goes through, it is a private deal between two companies, cro navy has nothing to do with it. (thats not to say that, in theory, cro wont get such ships in the future, but its highly unlikely as theyre not needed) Kraljevica may be interested in such a job not because cro navy needs it, but because it will bring money into the company.

 

[contedicavour]

They are not pushing anything more . Gowinds are gone as far as our navy is concerned.
I was implying that in the future(in another 7-8 years) there might be a interest in our navy for a couple of FREMMs. It isn't impossible, there were plans for buying 2 Perry class frigates in 2000., those aren't that much smaller(but are/were cheaper).
And yes, FREMMs are pricey, but we could spec them to our needs(RBS-15 for sure) and build them for a lesser price then either french or italians.
I'd rather see a couple of Absalon look-a-likes then FREMMs, but either way, those are good ships.

Well, more than happy to sell components of FREMMs to your shipyards and let them assemble the ships, but while I don't doubt the competency and expertise of your engineers, it is quite a challenge to build (and do it cheaper than us) such big ships after decades of building < 2000 tonne corvettes.
Besides, budget-wise, the ex USN OHPs where almost given for free. Spending over a billion euro for 2 FREMMs on top of corvettes (plus spending on Gripen and MI-17 for the airforce, Leo2s or modernized M84 MBTs and hundreds of new APCs and AIFVs for the army) seems to me a bit wild. Anyway it's your money and your call

cheers

 

[Totoro]

sadly, sometimes it isnt croatian money and croatian call but croatian money and call of a tight circle of people with dubious judgment and motives. Nothing new, i guess.

 

[Ragusian]

Kraljevica could, in theory, build parts for the new british carrier but that wouldn't mean croatian navy would eventually want to get one. Even if a deal goes through, it is a private deal between two companies, cro navy has nothing to do with it. (thats not to say that, in theory, cro wont get such ships in the future, but its highly unlikely as theyre not needed) Kraljevica may be interested in such a job not because cro navy needs it, but because it will bring money into the company.

Agreed.(Hell, we could build the whole CVF in one piece much more easily then Brits, but they are not gonna give it to us )

I was simply implying a certain probability of aquisition in the future. If our navy goes in the market for frigates in the future, I think a design which is already partially being built in Croatia is a likely contender, although, like I've said, I'd rather see something like Absalon.

Spending over a billion euro for 2 FREMMs on top of corvettes (plus spending on Gripen and MI-17 for the airforce, Leo2s or modernized M84 MBTs and hundreds of new APCs and AIFVs for the army) seems to me a bit wild. Anyway it's your money and your call

Corvettes, Gripen and M84D modernization should be paid and done well before 2015ish.
Mi-171SH also(they're for "free" anyway ).
Starting from 2015, we will pretty much have a clean sheet of paper on what to do/buy next.

Speaking of M-84D
All M-84s have been upgraded to D standard, further newbuilds will start contruction next year

 

[Totoro]

Oh, please do provide an online source for those m84d claims, its completely new to me and i'd really like to know more about it. Thanks!

 

[Ragusian]

I think you can read it in the goverment's made proposed plan of developement of croatian armed forces in 2006-2015(availible at MOD's site).
It is also higly probable that the M-84D will be exported to Kuwait(their M-84s will be uprgraded to D standard, and some new ones will be built).

 

[Totoro]

Well, that is a proposed plan. It may or may not go through, contents may change, timetables may change etc. It still needs to be seen. If new production does commence, it will be advertised. Also, there is D standard and then there is Degman standard. Personally, the way things are going, i doubt any new ones will be built, but existing ones may be upgraded to D standard. (again, not to be confused with Degman, which was to be a more complex project, and would actually be quite costly to implement as modernization)

Kuwait stuff is newspaper articles, just like we've been reading years before. Nothing concrete so far. If it DOES happen, it will somewhat increase the chances of new production for the army, that is true.

 

[mic of orion]

Agreed.(Hell, we could build the whole CVF in one piece much more easily then Brits, but they are not gonna give it to us )

I was simply implying a certain probability of aquisition in the future. If our navy goes in the market for frigates in the future, I think a design which is already partially being built in Croatia is a likely contender, although, like I've said, I'd rather see something like Absalon.



Corvettes, Gripen and M84D modernization should be paid and done well before 2015ish.
Mi-171SH also(they're for "free" anyway ).
Starting from 2015, we will pretty much have a clean sheet of paper on what to do/buy next.

Speaking of M-84D
All M-84s have been upgraded to D standard, further newbuilds will start contruction next year

Agree on all, not sure if Croatia will go for FREEM I am quite skeptical about that one, but by 2015 Croatian defense budget should be hitting 12 - 12.5 billion Kuna mark (2.5 billion USD) with armed forces of only 20 000, more funds would be available. By than annually 500 million USD will be available for purchase of new armaments (about 350 million Euros).

One thing I really do not likeabout M84D,apart from the fact that is a total waste of money, is the fact tank has no real ammo bustle, I find this worrying.

M84 has prepencity to blow up when hit at the back of the turret, this is major flow of M84 design, it is far superior in amour protection to its contemporaries, T72B/M all series, but it lacked armor at the back where it had little or no protection if hit by even basic ATGM's. In war in ex-Yugoslavia, Slovens, Croats and Bosniaks would exploit this weakness on M84 tanks with deadly consequence.

During the war in ex Yugoslavia, 90 M84's where destroyed, of 386 tanks in JNA service, (75 were captured by Croats, 52 by Slovens - JNA before the war had 504 M84 and M84A1 tanks + 12 in DD factory), that represents massive loss of front line armor.

Tank is simply a death trap, new turret is needed or go ahead with the Leo 2A4 tanks. I am not sure if Kuwait will agree on M84 modernization, it is all still iffy...

I'd really look in to Leo 2A4 and than look to upgrade these to A6 standard over next 5-7 years. Croatia only needs 104 main battle tanks.

 

[Ragusian]

but existing ones may be upgraded to D standard.

That's finished. All have been upgraded as far as I know. New built examples will start production next year(Degman, not M-84D). I don't know how many.

Kuwait stuff is newspaper articles, just like we've been reading years before. Nothing concrete so far. If it DOES happen, it will somewhat increase the chances of new production for the army, that is true.

Well, Kuwait officials have been to Croatia and tested the preproduction Degmans that were built(I think 5 Degmans were built). It's now on them.
If the deal goes through, a further buy of HS products(pistols and rifles) and ships is also possible. I do hope they sign it!

The 2008 "shopping list" for Croatian armed forces(major items)

- decide on the next multirole aircraft by the end of 2008.
- additional 8 Mi-171Sh arriving from Russia(with possibly 2 extra bought)
- signing for additional 42 patria IFVs (either 6x6 or 8x8) - this is not sure yet
- production of Degman is starting
- possible production of HS VHS assault rifle is all goes well
- signing for 4 domestically built corvettes(very soon, can't wait)
- modernisation and upgrades to the RTOPs(new engines, RBS-15 upgrades)

speculations
- additional Korcula class minehunters?
- 2/4 Goteborgs if the Gripen is chosen(but I rather doubt it with this RTOP modernization plan no need for them sadly)?

 

[Totoro]

Ragusian, you're saying all m84s have been modernized as far as you know. Doesnt that imply that you have sources other than that morh white paper? Please do provide those, i'm interested in details...

 

[mic of orion]

Ragusian, only 20-30 M84 were modernized to M84A4 standard, there are 2 samples of M84D and 2 M95, all 4 are being tested.

There was a plan to modernize all M84 to M84A4 standard, but with the current plan to modernize all M84's to M84D standard + Build some M95's.

Croatia needs 104 Main Battle tanks. (2 tank battalions)

M95 - basic version.

 

[Ragusian]

Croatian daily newspapers are out with a story that a EF-2000 is now included in the bid.
The nominees are:

EF-2000
JAS-39 C/D
(probably used) F-16
MiG-29(aka 35)
Mirage-F1(madness)