Croatian Armed Forces

[Burner]

I would be interested in details about Croatian Lancers. I know you have 3 or 5 MiG-21s modernized in Romania and I would very much like to hear some opinions about the Lancers from some foreigners, if you can tell me. Are your pilots happy with the upgrade? Just curios.

Other than that, I had the oportunity to see the Krila Oluje (Wings of Storm) Demo Team and their PC-9s flying at the RoIAS 2006 at Mihail Kogalniceanu. Very nice, considering the team is very young. Other teams, like PC-7 Demo Team, Turkish Stars and of course Frecce Tricolori, were more impressive, but for a young team, the Krila Oluje were pretty good.

As for the future multirole fighter, I think Gripen is a very good option. F-16s would be good only if you afford some new Block 52 ones.

 

[isthvan]

Hi Burner

Our MiG-21´s received only limited upgrade in Romania… They were refurbished and received new communication and navigation equipment but that’s all… IIRC there was some problems whit modernized MiG´s but I don’t know exactly what problems.
Unfortunately former government has neglected air forces to the point where we had only few helicopters and PC-9s in operational condition (Navy was in even worse condition)… IMHO they should have modernized MiG´s to Lancer standard… That way we could operate them longer and wouldn’t be in the currant situation…

I have also seen our acrobatic team at two occasions and I agree whit you. They still can’t compete whit some other teams but they showed quite nice performance for such young team.

As for JAS-39 I personally think that Gripen is perfect solution for our air force thanks to low operational costs and easy maintenance. While there are more capable fighters available they have higher operational costs compared to Gripen… One more plus for Gripen is anti ship role whit RBS-15 ASM.

Best regards,
Isthvan

 

[contedicavour]

I would be interested in details about Croatian Lancers. I know you have 3 or 5 MiG-21s modernized in Romania and I would very much like to hear some opinions about the Lancers from some foreigners, if you can tell me. Are your pilots happy with the upgrade? Just curios.

Other than that, I had the oportunity to see the Krila Oluje (Wings of Storm) Demo Team and their PC-9s flying at the RoIAS 2006 at Mihail Kogalniceanu. Very nice, considering the team is very young. Other teams, like PC-7 Demo Team, Turkish Stars and of course Frecce Tricolori, were more impressive, but for a young team, the Krila Oluje were pretty good.

As for the future multirole fighter, I think Gripen is a very good option. F-16s would be good only if you afford some new Block 52 ones.

I still think the cheapest and most cost-effective solution is second hand F16ADFs with Amraam, either ex Dutch or ex US ANG. Buy it as a leasing for a fixed number of flight hours and maintenance and replacement is taken in charge by the US.
In the same league as the Jaztrebs and Oraos your pilots definitively know in Croatia, your air force could also take second hand AMXs from ours (we've got several mothballed) for close air support and some patrol over the Adriatic. Fit them with Marte Mk2A with 25km range and you've got an extremely cheap solution.

cheers

 

[isthvan]

It seams to me that when this proposal was drafted they simple didn’t want to completely cut capabilities of any branch of armed forces and instead they decided to cut some of projects from every branch. Navy will get new OPV and modernization for 3 FAC´s; army new IFV and new soldier equipment and air force obviously had best lobbyists since they managed to get new fighters and helicopters… I’m not to happy whit some things in this proposal but it is still great improvement compared to one decade of neglect and deteriorating of armed forces…

Since this modernization plan, like any other military purchase plan in the world, is politically made it doesn’t necessary represent what would be best solution for armed forces but instead it is more made whit political goals behind it…

I still think the cheapest and most cost-effective solution is second hand F16ADFs with Amraam, either ex Dutch or ex US ANG. Buy it as a leasing for a fixed number of flight hours and maintenance and replacement is taken in charge by the US.
In the same league as the Jaztrebs and Oraos your pilots definitively know in Croatia, your air force could also take second hand AMXs from ours (we've got several mothballed) for close air support and some patrol over the Adriatic. Fit them with Marte Mk2A with 25km range and you've got an extremely cheap solution.

cheers

While I agree that leasing of US F-16ADF would be best solution, especially if they are supplemented whit few AMX there is other side of the story…

MOD decided to purchase new fighters only whit 100% offset deal similar to Swedish deals in Hungary or Czech republic… That way air force will get new fighters(less then they would need/ want) and Government will be able to say that thanks to that they were able to create new jobs…

You can also look at navy for example; they are currently modernizing FAC´s, so shipyards will have work and then will start construction of OPV´s. Again shipyards will have work, employment rate will stay the same and navy will get ships… Not exactly what they want but still better then they have…

Army won’t get new MBT (and that was, IMHO, good decision) but new IFV will be produced locally by MBT manufacturer. Again few new jobs open…

It is simple as that… In country of 4.5milion and whit 18% unemployment rate thousand or so new jobs is quite important…

I think you'll agree with me that the navy should came second to land forces, if not even first in priority.

Like I said I was somewhat disappointed whit lack of the naval projects in MOD proposal. I agree that navy should be treated whit more understanding that we are naval country and that we can’t neglect negative aspects of lousy control of our territorial waters …
Whit 5 835km long coastline we really need to quickly enlarge and improve our patrol boat fleet…

But if MOD proposal goes trough Sabor I think that they should build decent fleet of smaller patrol boats comparable to those for Libya and supplement them whit 2-3 larger OPV´s… They could simple build 3 instead of 4 OPV and that way pay patrol boats. I’m not saying that they should scrap 4th OPV but rather postpone its constriction by 2015…
FAC will be able to serve for some time and I really don’t have anything against that they stay in service. I know that they have limited capabilities but like I said IMHO currently there is no need for something more capable.

Yes, Visby-s would be nice. But just a little bigger, please

I don’t think that this would be necessary. Whit our type of coastline we should learn from Swedish naval doctrine. Few multi-purpose corvettes similar to “Visby” class should be more then enough… There would be much cheaper to operate then bigger corvettes and realistically I don’t see any shortcomings compared to bigger ships.

 

[Sea Toby]

With such a small population and a high unemployment rate, its my opinion Croatia would be better off with a number of new patrol boats. Croatia will never be able to outspend Italy for control of the Adriatic Sea. At best Croatia will be barely able to afford EEZ and fishery patrols along with coastal police surveillance. I would suggest cheap patrol vessels at first. When the economy rebounds Croatia may be interested in acquiring new fast attack craft with ship to ship missiles. There is no need to discard the fast attack craft recently built until they have reached their pay off dates.

 

[Grand Danois]

IIRC LockMart offered 130% offsets for the deal on 48 F-16's for Poland.

I would still think Gripen would be a prime choice of kit for Croatia.

 

[contedicavour]

With such a small population and a high unemployment rate, its my opinion Croatia would be better off with a number of new patrol boats. Croatia will never be able to outspend Italy for control of the Adriatic Sea. At best Croatia will be barely able to afford EEZ and fishery patrols along with coastal police surveillance. I would suggest cheap patrol vessels at first. When the economy rebounds Croatia may be interestd in acquiring new fast attack craft with ship to ship missiles. There is no need to discard the fast attack craft recently built until they have reached their pay off dates.

With Montenegro independent, Croatia doesn't have any potential enemies left among its Adriatic Sea neighbors. So I agree to focus on patrolling assets first and foremost. Question is if a few OPVs would do the job better than a much higher number of smaller patrol crafts of the approximate size of the Mirna.

cheers

 

[Ragusian]

With such a small population and a high unemployment rate, its my opinion Croatia would be better off with a number of new patrol boats. Croatia will never be able to outspend Italy for control of the Adriatic Sea. At best Croatia will be barely able to afford EEZ and fishery patrols along with coastal police surveillance. I would suggest cheap patrol vessels at first. When the economy rebounds Croatia may be interestd in acquiring new fast attack craft with ship to ship missiles. There is no need to discard the fast attack craft recently built until they have reached their pay off dates.

Well, our curent rate of unemployment is less than 15% and droping. Our GDP increase is 5%, some say it could reach 7% in 2 years, so if all goes well, I think in a 5-6 year, yes, we will be able to afford just about anything we need...
And what we need is another question...

It seams to me that when this proposal was drafted they simple didn’t want to completely cut capabilities of any branch of armed forces and instead they decided to cut some of projects from every branch. Navy will get new OPV and modernization for 3 FAC´s; army new IFV and new soldier equipment and air force obviously had best lobbyists since they managed to get new fighters and helicopters… I’m not to happy whit some things in this proposal but it is still great improvement compared to one decade of neglect and deteriorating of armed forces…

True...But I think some of the projects are dead-ends. Like those FACs... It seems to me, by the time their modernisation completes, they will be very close to their retirement... And even modernised, they are not suited for patrol duties, which is what we need the most. And who cares about ASuW, 3 smallish FACs wouldn't make a big difference afterall...
I don't know if you have heard the latest news, but it seems that our commanding naval officer, admiral Kardum, has said that after completing their modernization, these FACs will be able to do Med patrol duties, and he even offered our services... A FAC of such size, a Med patrol???:

But if MOD proposal goes through Sabor I think that they should build decent fleet of smaller patrol boats comparable to those for Libya and supplement them whit 2-3 larger OPV´s… They could simple build 3 instead of 4 OPV and that way pay patrol boats. I’m not saying that they should scrap 4th OPV but rather postpone its constriction by 2015…
FAC will be able to serve for some time and I really don’t have anything against that they stay in service. I know that they have limited capabilities but like I said IMHO currently there is no need for something more capable.

No, I think 4 OPVs are a bare minumum, building less wouldn't be a good thing.
They should be build in such a fashion so if a crisis arises, they can be quickly converted to pure fighting ships, fully armed and capable.
I've heard that aroung 6-8 ships will be built for coast-guard purposes, of similar layout and size to those we sold to libya. Add smaller police boats and that should suffice, but is still a minimum of our needs. Plus, there's no naval aviation, and I believe no plans for such service exsists. Why, why?
And then we have the gripen deal(or whatever plane gets chosen)... Even if you include the offset, still more than 1-1,5 billion of euros will surely be spent on introducing a new type in our airforce... Now imagine the same or even a smaller amount of money being spent on a couple of MiGs to keep tham airworthy by 2015, and the rest spent on naval and land assets. That would be some navy, I think... Instead of having 4 operational OPVs by 2015, we could had them yesterday. New FAcs or whatever ships could also be built, and so on...

 

[isthvan]

Well, our curent rate of unemployment is less than 15% and droping. Our GDP increase is 5%, some say it could reach 7% in 2 years, so if all goes well, I think in a 5-6 year, yes, we will be able to afford just about anything we need...
And what we need is another question...

I agree that whit currant growth rate economy has chance for full recovery in next decade. Also while statistics look bad economic situation is mostly bad in regions that were struck by war. On other hand regions that weren’t directly stuck by war have similar size GDP to EU average…
Also war struck regions should benefit the most from this modernization plan (trough equipment manufacturing/offset deals).

True...But I think some of the projects are dead-ends. Like those FACs... It seems to me, by the time their modernisation completes, they will be very close to their retirement... And even modernised, they are not suited for patrol duties, which is what we need the most. And who cares about ASuW, 3 smallish FACs wouldn't make a big difference afterall...
I don't know if you have heard the latest news, but it seems that our commanding naval officer, admiral Kardum, has said that after completing their modernization, these FACs will be able to do Med patrol duties, and he even offered our services... A FAC of such size, a Med patrol???:

Regarding FAC´s I wouldn’t say that there’s modernization is dead-end project. RTOP11 is 15 years old ship and RTOP12 has entered service quite recently. “Šibenik” is older ship but I think that he is able to serve for one more decade.

I agree that they aren’t best solution for patrol duties but whit new engines they can serve as stopgap measure until OPV´s become available… Anyway we already have them so why scrap them as long as they can serve in there role?

As for Med patrol I have to agree whit you. They aren’t nearly capable for that role…And Kardum is aware of that too. But I guess that admiral though that this statement will sound good on national TV.

No, I think 4 OPVs are a bare minumum, building less wouldn't be a good thing.
They should be build in such a fashion so if a crisis arises, they can be quickly converted to pure fighting ships, fully armed and capable.
I've heard that aroung 6-8 ships will be built for coast-guard purposes, of similar layout and size to those we sold to libya. Add smaller police boats and that should suffice, but is still a minimum of our needs. Plus, there's no naval aviation, and I believe no plans for such service exsists. Why, why?
And then we have the gripen deal(or whatever plane gets chosen)... Even if you include the offset, still more than 1-1,5 billion of euros will surely be spent on introducing a new type in our airforce... Now imagine the same or even a smaller amount of money being spent on a couple of MiGs to keep tham airworthy by 2015, and the rest spent on naval and land assets. That would be some navy, I think... Instead of having 4 operational OPVs by 2015, we could had them yesterday. New FAcs or whatever ships could also be built, and so on...

Yes I agree that OPV´ should be able for quick conversion to combat ships. And yes 4 are the minimum. Problem is that while bigger ships are useful there is limited area which single ship can cover. That’s the reason why I think that they also need smaller patrol boats. But if you are right and Coast guard will get 6-8 boats similar to Libyan patrol boats my argument was meaningless…
Whit 4 OPV´s and 6-8 patrol boats we should be able to conduct EEZ and fishery patrols.
Only thing that we will lack are patrol and SAR helicopters like USCG A-109…

Regarding new fighter deal ex. government shouldn’t scrap Lancer modernization for MiG-21s… We wouldn’t now be in this situation. But since MiG-21s have received only limited refurbishing and modernization they can’t serve for much longer then 2010.
IMHO best solution would be leasing of ex. US F-16 ore something similar as stopgap measure(much better then MiG modernization). But like I said IMHO there is no chance for that to happen…
But yes if MiG-21s have been modernized few years ago they would be able to serve for one more decade and we could now focus on Army and Navy needs. Thanks to ex. government that has basically wasted money on limited modernization when they could have much more capable modernization for little more money.

 

[Ragusian]

Regarding FAC´s I wouldn’t say that there’s modernization is dead-end project. RTOP11 is 15 years old ship and RTOP12 has entered service quite recently. “Šibenik” is older ship but I think that he is able to serve for one more decade.

I am not saying they are old, but their concept is old, they are limited in a way of missions such ship can carry, and they are all due for engines replcement... These engines will be very expensive, since they have to be custom built, and ordered.
What we need are patrol ships, and these ships cannot do it. I say we scrap them. Save the money and get OPVs sooner in service(2009 for first OPV is way overdue)...
These FACs will not finish their modernization and engine replacements much sooner then 2010-2011... And I guess that we will probably be replacing them around 2015-2017 with a new type of surface ships, be it a Visby style corvette or something else... Thus, it seems to me that we are spending alot of money and time to get 5 or 6 years of service for ships we basically do not need... Am I correct?

Thanks to ex. government that has basically wasted money on limited modernization when they could have much more capable modernization for little more money.

Exactly...same thing applying to OPVs and FACs...

Yes I agree that OPV´ should be able for quick conversion to combat ships. And yes 4 are the minimum. Problem is that while bigger ships are useful there is limited area which single ship can cover. That’s the reason why I think that they also need smaller patrol boats. But if you are right and Coast guard will get 6-8 boats similar to Libyan patrol boats my argument was meaningless…
Whit 4 OPV´s and 6-8 patrol boats we should be able to conduct EEZ and fishery patrols.
Only thing that we will lack are patrol and SAR helicopters like USCG A-109…

One story goes that OPVs will be built in two different types. One for coast guard, and the other for the navy, first being lightly armed but easily upgradeable, and secund being a dedicated warship...
A navy helo is something that would come handy also... But since nothing is sure yet if these OPVs will have hangars or just helo-pads, we'll just have to wait...

 

[contedicavour]

Since money is short for the moment, why not go on a wide shopping spree on all the second hand material there's around...

Naval :
> at least 10 FACs from Sweden, may be the Goteborg in 5 years
> USCG cutters
> Type 148s being discarded by the German Navy
> ASH-3D and AB212 from Italy
Ok, no OPVs around, but with 10 FACs or so patrol functions are more than assured !

Air Force :
> F16ADF from US ANG
> Gripens the Swedish air force will retire (as already suggested above)
> AMXs

Army :
> Leo2A4s from Germany or Switzerland
> AB205/206/212 helo from Italy

You've got enough material around to build one hell of a force, while waiting for the budget to grow enough to afford brand new replacements...

cheers

 

[isthvan]

I have joust seen on MOD webpage that they had meting whit AMARIS officials and that they are considering purchase of GOWIND 200 class corvette… Apparently MOD showed interest to buy one corvette which would be produced locally…

 

[contedicavour]

I have joust seen on MOD webpage that they had meting whit AMARIS officials and that they are considering purchase of GOWIND 200 class corvette… Apparently MOD showed interest to buy one corvette which would be produced locally…

Hmm strange, that corvette is larger than the initial OPV brief !
If the key request is for licence for local shipbuilding, then no problem, for example Turkey and Indonesia are or shortly will be building copies of the Italian Comandanti class 90-meter 1600 ton OPVH.
Keep us posted

cheers

 

[isthvan]

Hmm strange, that corvette is larger than the initial OPV brief !
If the key request is for licence for local shipbuilding, then no problem, for example Turkey and Indonesia are or shortly will be building copies of the Italian Comandanti class 90-meter 1600 ton OPVH.
Keep us posted

cheers

Well according to local press MOD plans to build 4 of these corvettes that will serve as OPV. Ships would build in Kraljevica shipyard and will be armed whit guns only. Apparently they will be fitted for additional armament but not equipped whit it. Price will be around 100 million € per ship…
This is still not official news so when additional info is available I will post it here…

 

[Totoro]

Can someone tell me just who exactly ordered Croatia that they must buy such ships? Is it a future NATO requirement? Does Croatia get to decide anything about the makeup of its forces?

Personally, and I am looking at this from a simple Croatia versus potential threats viewpoint - purchase of such ships is instanity. A single ship would be too much, let alone four. Especially if they are not to be fitted with any systems. What's up with that? Most expensive system is always the one that is not used. And how can one use a ship if it doesn't have any weapons?

For 400 million euros croatia could buy 6-8 brand new combat planes, something it desparately needs. Those planes could be used to perform naval strikes if needed. Instead, it will get 4 stealthy barges less capable than a current missile gunboat it has. Speaking of which, they too are an overkill. There is simply no need for any kind of offensive navy. Leave offense or even active defense to airplanes and truck based missile launchers. Any other missions would be much better and more cost efficiently served by a decent coast guard fleet.

 

[isthvan]

Totoro this is joust proposal and there are no guaranties that this deal will go true but if they decide to purchase these ships I wouldn’t exactly agree that this would be bad at long run.

We can’t joust make assumption about future needs based on currant situation and while this ships could be currently considered as overkill there will be need for ships of similar size in future (and since this ships would serve for quite long we need to plan whit future requirements in mind).

Currently Croatian navy really needs capable OPV. Since MOD suggested that this ships will be primary used in that role gun only armament should be sufficient and since provisions for additional armament will be made so ships could be quickly armed in event of crisis I don’t see why this would be problem.
Currant stocks of RBS-15 missiles (which are going to maintenance) will provide SSM capability and when founds becomes available SAM and ASW armament could be fitted quite easily. Basically this ship could provide level of capabilities similar to Malaysian MEKO A-100 or Danish StanFlex2000 ships.

Range of duties for these ships will have to do go from EEZ and fishery patrol duties, SAR missions to future duties in NATO; plus whit more frequent participation of our troops in NATO and UN peacekeeping mission there is possibility that we will have to send ships to provide support to our troops deployed in those missions. Also we must consider that larger ships can sustain quite longer deployments at sea and can cover quite larger area then small patrol boats thus providing efficient control of 5 835km long Croatian coastline.

Don’t get me wrong I was quite surprised and honestly not to happy whit news about possible deal whit AMARIS for these corvettes since I was expecting that future OPV will be smaller and cheaper but I can understand why are they considering this design… I personally would go for something similar to Austal 72m trimaran multi role corvette but I’m not in MOD purchase committee… They probably know better what they need and what are future mission requirements for navy; not to mention that if this deal goes true it will keep naval shipyard in Kraljevica alive…

 

[contedicavour]

Well at 100 million euro apiece it remains reasonable. Though you would have to add the cost of the embarked helo and of its weapons.
The Comandanti cost us 80 million euro apiece excl armament and helo (and these are 2002 prices, so inflation would bring them closer to 90 million for a construction starting in 2007).

cheers

 

[mic of orion]

Since money is short for the moment, why not go on a wide shopping spree on all the second hand material there's around...

Naval :
> at least 10 FACs from Sweden, may be the Goteborg in 5 years
> USCG cutters
> Type 148s being discarded by the German Navy
> ASH-3D and AB212 from Italy
Ok, no OPVs around, but with 10 FACs or so patrol functions are more than assured !

Air Force :
> F16ADF from US ANG
> Gripens the Swedish air force will retire (as already suggested above)
> AMXs

Army :
> Leo2A4s from Germany or Switzerland
> AB205/206/212 helo from Italy

You've got enough material around to build one hell of a force, while waiting for the budget to grow enough to afford brand new replacements...

cheers

nice list, lol.

Leo 2A4 might still be in the game, it looks as if M84D might not be a go, unless Kuwait buys the upgrade, what I think also might happened, Croats might flog there M84's and sell them to Kuwaitis, lol, and later on buy German Leo 2A4, well German would give them to Croats for free, Croatia needs 2 battalions only, 104 tanks in total.

As to Bell 212 I think Croatia should consider these as well, and Bell 206, on your list, Croatia needs good utility helicopter and Bell 206 fits the role, Bell 212 can fill light transport role.

As to fighters JAS 39 is only option for Croatia, latest version preferably, C/D that is. for 700 million euros as stated in MOD plan you can get 14 fighters not 12.

 

[kato]

> Type 148s being discarded by the German Navy

They'd be a couple years late for those. And for other German FACs as well. I think Greece is getting rid of its Type 148s sometime soon though...

Type 148

6 to Greece
6 to Chile (2 as hulks)
5 to Egypt
3 scrapped in 2003

Type 143

6 to Tunesia
4 to Marinearsenal, spare parts hulks for Type 143A

Type 143A

All 10 will be kept in service until post-2020, when they'll be 40+ years old.

 

[Ragusian]

No used FACs are considered by the CroNavy.

The next major program in this year are the new corvettes, followed by the decision on the next aircraft for the airforce(probably Gripen C/D or E/F).
All those must be chosen by the end of the 2008, so a pretty exciting year for us
There is a possibility of 2 or 4 swedish Goteborgs to be transferred to CroNavy after the Gripen buy.