Royal Australian Air Force [RAAF] News, Discussions and Updates

phreeky

Active Member
I believe the critisism of the whole super hornet thing was towards the decision process, and not the actual decision itself. Feel free to correct me if you know otherwise however.

Labor has done a fairly good job of staying neutral on defence issues (other than Iraq) thus far, so I suppose that could mean they're not planning any significant changes. Alternatively I suppose it could mean changes without called liers, either way I'm sure we'll see shortly.
 

Tasman

Ship Watcher
Verified Defense Pro
I believe the critisism of the whole super hornet thing was towards the decision process, and not the actual decision itself. Feel free to correct me if you know otherwise however.

Labor has done a fairly good job of staying neutral on defence issues (other than Iraq) thus far, so I suppose that could mean they're not planning any significant changes. Alternatively I suppose it could mean changes without called liers, either way I'm sure we'll see shortly.
Here is a comment by the Defence Minister re the FA-18F's reported by the ABC earlier today:

New Defence Minister questions jet fighter purchase
Posted 8 hours 40 minutes ago

New Minister for Defence Joel Fitzgibbon will review Australia's air capabilities, after raising questions about the $7 billion purchase of F/A-18 Super Hornet jet fighters.

The former Coalition Government was accused of putting Australia's defence at risk after it bought 24 jet fighters as a stop-gap measure to replace the ageing F-111 aircraft.

The accusations were aired in a recent ABC Four Corners program, which said the purchasing decision was based on a critical mistake during wing tests on an F-111 aircraft.

Mr Fitzgibbon says that is a concern.

"The Super Hornet purchase was just one big example of the way in which the Government had failed to ensure that strategic guidance was feeding in to capability decisions and we'll have a review of air capability," he said.

"I'm sure the Super Hornets need to be part of the mix now, but we want to ensure that we maintain our superiority and air capability."
http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2007/11/30/2105721.htm

In it he specifically questions the acquisition process and more or less says that the aircraft will be part of the RAAF order of battle. The important comment to me was, "I'm sure the Super Hornets need to be part of the mix now, but we want to ensure that we maintain our superiority and air capability."

Tas
 
A

Aussie Digger

Guest
No they didn't. The Seasprite was selected after the 1996 election.
Sea 1411 kicked off in 1994, with funding approval granted to acquire the Seasprite in the 1995-1996 financial year. The contract may not have been signed until the Liberals signed it in 1997, but the Kaman bid was the only tender left, after the alternative option was cut from the race by defence's FSPPC.

http://www.anao.gov.au/download.cfm...7F&binary_id=BDF8EF821560A6E8AACB5A353ADA9F0D

All of Sea 1411 was handled by the Labor Government right up until contract signature time...


APA getting an actual gurnsey in defence? You must be smoking some bad canola to even think it a possibility!
It is not inconceivable that a defence contract COULD be cancelled. I said I didn't think it likely the SH WOULD be cancelled and any hope of APA to get their Uber Pig contract would disappear.

I think APA have about as much chance to become Defmin Fitzgibbon's air power adviser as Ronald Macdonald has...
 

AGRA

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
Sea 1411 kicked off in 1994, with funding approval granted to acquire the Seasprite in the 1995-1996 financial year. The contract may not have been signed until the Liberals signed it in 1997, but the Kaman bid was the only tender left, after the alternative option was cut from the race by defence's FSPPC.
Mate the role of Government is to OK the preferred selection of Defence. When this decision was brought to Government it was the Howard Government and they said Aye. The Keating Government planned the need for the lightweight naval helicopter by supporting the RAN's plans for an objective fleet of 6 Anzac AWDs, 8 Anzac FFHs and 12 Tenix OPCs, with the later hulls operating one lightweight naval helicopter each. Further it was the Howard Government that cancelled this long running RAN requirement for the 12 OPCs buying much cheaper and non-aviation capable Armidales in their place. The Howard Government chose the wrong solution and cancelled the very need for the program.

I think APA have about as much chance to become Defmin Fitzgibbon's air power adviser as Ronald Macdonald has...
Ronald McDonald has more chance, he at least has his own uniform...
 
there is alot of discussion going on about whether the super hornet will be suitable to replace the F-111 in the interim. Could someone please shed some light as to whether a dedicated bomber such as the B-1 bomber was considered or still should be considered to maintain Australias strategic long range deterrent? it was just a thought...
surely a mix of say 75 x F-35 (including a squadron of VSTOL variants for the new LHD's) and a squadron of dedicated long range strike bombers should be considered? i would like to hear everyones opinions :)

and on another note - will the newly elected Rudd government push harder for F-22? or has the US given everyone the stiff arm jab regarding this aircraft.

Cheers
 

phreeky

Active Member
there is alot of discussion going on about whether the super hornet will be suitable to replace the F-111 in the interim. Could someone please shed some light as to whether a dedicated bomber such as the B-1 bomber was considered or still should be considered to maintain Australias strategic long range deterrent? it was just a thought...
surely a mix of say 75 x F-35 (including a squadron of VSTOL variants for the new LHD's) and a squadron of dedicated long range strike bombers should be considered? i would like to hear everyones opinions :)
Someone on here used to push for the B-1s quite a bit, seems to have died down. I believe the argument was that they're both too expensive, and no longer in production, so they'd be coming from the scrap yards. Something along those lines, I'm sure someone else has more information/input into that.

TBH I'm not sure why we'd need something with such extreme range and load carrying capability. Shouldn't we be more focused on taking advantage of our isolation, and therefore worry about control of the air space and maritime strike? Which sounds more like a job for multi-role aircraft to me.

and on another note - will the newly elected Rudd government push harder for F-22? or has the US given everyone the stiff arm jab regarding this aircraft.
Will be interesting to see. And the US political scene is slowly edging towards a change too, can't recall exactly how much longer is left for Bush.
 

Tasman

Ship Watcher
Verified Defense Pro
there is alot of discussion going on about whether the super hornet will be suitable to replace the F-111 in the interim. Could someone please shed some light as to whether a dedicated bomber such as the B-1 bomber was considered or still should be considered to maintain Australias strategic long range deterrent? it was just a thought...
surely a mix of say 75 x F-35 (including a squadron of VSTOL variants for the new LHD's) and a squadron of dedicated long range strike bombers should be considered? i would like to hear everyones opinions :)

and on another note - will the newly elected Rudd government push harder for F-22? or has the US given everyone the stiff arm jab regarding this aircraft.

Cheers
As Phreeky said, another member (Rjmaz) put forward a suggestion earlier in one of the old RAAF threads that the RAAF acquire some surplus USAF B1B's but most members opposed this on a variety of grounds including purchase and operating costs, age of the platforms, and general unsuitability for the RAAF. It was also felt that an aircraft of this kind would 'upset' Australia's regional neighbours. I can't recall which thread it was.

Re the F-22, I agree with Phreeky - it will be interesting to see what happens. I expect that the new Defmin will heed advice from the ADF and not pursue the F-22 further unless (a) the F-35 program falls over and (b) the USAF eventually clears an export version for sale.

Tas
 
i cant remember off the top of my head, but i recall seeing some development into external weapons bay 'stealth pods' for the f-35 to increase weapons capacity. has anybody seen or heard anything regarding this??

Will be interesting to see. And the US political scene is slowly edging towards a change too, can't recall exactly how much longer is left for Bush.[/QUOTE]

yeh no doubt that there will be a refreshing look at our alliance with the US... two new leaders anything could happen, who knows.
 

AGRA

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
i cant remember off the top of my head, but i recall seeing some development into external weapons bay 'stealth pods' for the f-35 to increase weapons capacity. has anybody seen or heard anything regarding this??
Lockheed Martin did propose external 'stealthy' weapons panniers for their Rapid Theatre Strike FB-23 proposal. Such a design could easily be added to the F-35’s wing if it has the load and lift margins to accommodate it.


FB-22 underside

Though I’m not sure how much of a radar reflection reduction it would be from conventional external carriage of stealthy ordnance like JSOW, JASSM or SDBs. Would certainly make a difference for JDAMs and LGBs but they could be carried internally with the existing bomb bay anyway.
 
cheers for that AGRA...

i am a strong believer in air-air refuelling capabilities for the RAAF to be enhanced. surely there must be merit for the Rudd Government to look at increasing the order from 5 MRTT-330 to 8-10? 5 cost $2billion, but surely and extra 3-5 would only be an additional $1.2billion... but would be a great force multiplier and would give the RAAF so much more capability and flexibility in assisting overseas operations.

i dont want to sound all political here, but i dont see why we wouldnt want to capitalise on such a strong economy and bolster our 3 arms of defence more than we are doing so now.
 

Todjaeger

Potstirrer
  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #511
there is alot of discussion going on about whether the super hornet will be suitable to replace the F-111 in the interim. Could someone please shed some light as to whether a dedicated bomber such as the B-1 bomber was considered or still should be considered to maintain Australias strategic long range deterrent? it was just a thought...
surely a mix of say 75 x F-35 (including a squadron of VSTOL variants for the new LHD's) and a squadron of dedicated long range strike bombers should be considered? i would like to hear everyones opinions :)

and on another note - will the newly elected Rudd government push harder for F-22? or has the US given everyone the stiff arm jab regarding this aircraft.

Cheers
With regards to the SH (or JSF) acting as a replacement for the F-111, one must remember the context in which it would be used. With the development of advanced PGMs, much of the range available to an F-111 can be achieved, and with the progress made in weapon accuracy, smaller warheads can have the same impact as large bomb loads. That is part of the reason for the development of the SBD, since it was found that a larger (2,000lb for example) bomb was sometimes undesirable do to having too large an area of effect.

In the Australian context, in what situation would there be a need for an intercontinental strike? That would likely be the only time there would be a need for a strategic bomber as replacement, given that things like JSOW-ER is to have sometime like a 600km range, and JASSM-ER in the neighborhood of 1,000 km. Also, if Australia decided to get a bomber as a replacement, from whom would they be gotten? AFAIK, there are no modern bombers (aside from perhaps Tu-160) still in production, and the aircraft which might be available in boneyards would be very different in terms of size to the F-111 as well as performance. The US is looking at a new/replacement strategic bomber, but given US doctrine, such an aircraft (if even available to Australia) would most likely not be something of interest. The FB-22 if it ever makes if off the drawing board, is the most similar to an F-111 successor and could perhaps have a place in the RAAF. Maybe.

As for Australia, or anyone else getting the F-22 for that matter... It might happen, but I would recommend neither holding ones breathe or planning on it. I will unfortunately need to dip somewhat into politics to explain my reasoning and some of the background, but I will attempt to keep it to a minimum.

In order for some country aside from the US to order the F-22, it would need to follow the FMS (Foreign Military Sales) program through the State Dept. I will avoid going through that in too much detail, as I suspect a number of members are far more familiar with it (and likely first hand knowledge) but FMS requires that the State Dept sign off/approve a sale, and then submit it to Congress for approval, prior to the sale being completed. Given the sensitive tech involved, it would likely be difficult to get the sale far enough along for the State Dept to approve it and send it to Congress, nevermind the political hot potatoe issue such a FMS sale would create there. In addition, and specific to the F-22, Congress (as I read the Congressional Law Library record) has passed laws making it illegal to spend money to sell the F-22. Congress (which enacts laws and controls the budget), in making it illegal to spend selling the F-22 in effect made it impossible for the State Dept. to conduct do the FMS approval to allow a possible sale to be sent to Congress for approval. Essentially as I read it, the FMS and related sections of the US Code are forced to be left in place.

Getting into the politics of the situation, the law which prevents the expenditure could of course be repealed. However, there would be a real political cost to do so, since whichever side decided to lift some of the restrictions would likely be cast as selling US technical advantages. As such, I believe that the political damage members of Congress would face is unpalletable. IMV, the best chance for the F-22 to have been available to US allies would have been between 2001-2006. Also, I do not anticipate any change in administration making a difference, since there is only a change in the Executive branch. If there had been issues within that branch of government (like State Dept dragging out approval) an admin change could effect that. However, at present it seems that it is not able to go forward far enough.

-Cheers
 

Jezza

Member
if anyone would get the raptor

it would be detuned downgraded EXPORT only variant

just like the JSF the USA would get full spec ones and the world
will get EXPORT variants.

Just remember the legacy hornet debacle:eek:nfloorl: :eek:nfloorl: :eek:nfloorl:
 

t68

Well-Known Member
Just remember the legacy hornet debacle:eek:nfloorl: :eek:nfloorl: :eek:nfloorl:
HI GUYS


Whats is the story on the hornet ?


I also agree that a b1 bomber is not what we need for the reasons that Todjaeger brought up .

If we require a need for long range weapons for strategic needs it should be placed with the RAN on the next generation of submarines with tomahawk capabilty . (no i have never been in RAN )

But unfortantly this will set an arms race in the regional area and one the government would like to avoid .

Super hornets and f35 (when we get them) will suffice for the short to meduim range and we will have a2a refueling aircraft soon .

I am sorry to see the f111 soon retire it has done massive job over years and has provided sterling service to th RAAF.

On different note i recall reading about the controversy about the f35 buying off the plans etc ,but this is not new for the RAAF thats how the F111 come about and we got f4 phantoms till the F111 came as they were late to arrive :D :cool: :D :cool:


REGARDS
TOM
 
A

Aussie Digger

Guest
HI GUYS


Whats is the story on the hornet ?


I also agree that a b1 bomber is not what we need for the reasons that Todjaeger brought up .

If we require a need for long range weapons for strategic needs it should be placed with the RAN on the next generation of submarines with tomahawk capabilty . (no i have never been in RAN )

But unfortantly this will set an arms race in the regional area and one the government would like to avoid .

Super hornets and f35 (when we get them) will suffice for the short to meduim range and we will have a2a refueling aircraft soon .

I am sorry to see the f111 soon retire it has done massive job over years and has provided sterling service to th RAAF.

On different note i recall reading about the controversy about the f35 buying off the plans etc ,but this is not new for the RAAF thats how the F111 come about and we got f4 phantoms till the F111 came as they were late to arrive :D :cool: :D :cool:


REGARDS
TOM
Funny you should bring up the Phantom/F-111 matter because it is almost identical to the situation we have at present, in terms of people criticising the choice of aircraft.

Yet the Phantom turned out so well for Australia, critics were calling for the F-111 to be scrapped before we even acquired it and the Phantom retained.

Personally I think the SH may just do that too...

The legacy Hornet debacle? Huh?
 

Tasman

Ship Watcher
Verified Defense Pro
Yet the Phantom turned out so well for Australia, critics were calling for the F-111 to be scrapped before we even acquired it and the Phantom retained.
The Phantom II was a much liked aircraft in RAAF service and there was certainly a case for Australia to purchase the 23 survivors after the FIIIC finally became operational in the RAAF. The downside would have been that the RAAF would have then had three different air combat platforms to support, probably too many for a comparatively small force to operate efficiently.

I think an F-18F/F-35A force will serve Australia well. As to whether the SH's end up being replaced by a final batch of F-35A's, I guess we will have to wait and see. At this stage this still seems to be the RAAF's preferred option but a lot can happen between now and the time when the decision will have to be made.

What I would like to see would be a continuation of the supplementary funding provided for the SH beyond the ten year period to enable the long term operation of five rather than four air combat squadrons in the RAAF order of battle
.
Tas
 

airforcehopeful

New Member
How to join RAAF

Hey guys, I'm 14, and Since about the age of 6, i have always wanted to become a pilot in the RAAF.

I am a member of the AAL (Australian Air League) so I have a somewhat broad understanding of the workings of aircraft, their functions, etc. I have also been flying simulators since the age of 9, and as of last year, I was actually lucky enough to go to the Qantas base in Mascot and successfully land the "Classic" 747, without any assistance from the instructor (I hate to toot my own horn here).

My reason for posting this is I wanted to ask the question, exactly what should I do in order to join the RAAF as an Officer/Pilot, as far as I am aware, I end up at ADFA (Australian Defence Force Academy) and do a course (which I am unsure what, and how long for). Then after I basically go to 1FTS, then 2FTS etc. etc.

This is as far as I have gotten, can someone please fill in the gaps for me, and tell me what I should do, as the Australian Defence Force website is not very helpful.

Thanks in Advance.
 
A

Aussie Digger

Guest
The Phantom II was a much liked aircraft in RAAF service and there was certainly a case for Australia to purchase the 23 survivors after the FIIIC finally became operational in the RAAF. The downside would have been that the RAAF would have then had three different air combat platforms to support, probably too many for a comparatively small force to operate efficiently.

I think an F-18F/F-35A force will serve Australia well. As to whether the SH's end up being replaced by a final batch of F-35A's, I guess we will have to wait and see. At this stage this still seems to be the RAAF's preferred option but a lot can happen between now and the time when the decision will have to be made.

What I would like to see would be a continuation of the supplementary funding provided for the SH beyond the ten year period to enable the long term operation of five rather than four air combat squadrons in the RAAF order of battle
.
Tas
Agreed. I am also increasingly in favour of an additional SH Hornet Squadron to be acquired to replace a legacy Hornet Squadron and give ourselves "more" than enough breathing room to cover any issues with the F-35.

I see that it is now back in the air, but like most other developmental aircraft at this stage of development, it has an enormous number of hoops to jump through. Choosing when we acquire something has to be better than being forced to do so, despite the fact that all our "forced" acquisitions seem to progress more smoothly than our choices... :rolleyes:
 

Ozzy Blizzard

New Member
AIM 120D's IOC is just around the corner (2008), with over 180km maximum range, improved kinematics, a GPS/INS navigation system and a new two way datalink, it is shaping up to be a very impresive missile system giveing its users a real and significant advantage over the R77/R27 families of missiles. Does anyone know if there are any plans for the RAAF to aquire the system, if so when, or if an order has been placed with the super bugs?
 

Magoo

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
Hey guys, I'm 14, and Since about the age of 6, i have always wanted to become a pilot in the RAAF.

I am a member of the AAL (Australian Air League) so I have a somewhat broad understanding of the workings of aircraft, their functions, etc. I have also been flying simulators since the age of 9, and as of last year, I was actually lucky enough to go to the Qantas base in Mascot and successfully land the "Classic" 747, without any assistance from the instructor (I hate to toot my own horn here).

My reason for posting this is I wanted to ask the question, exactly what should I do in order to join the RAAF as an Officer/Pilot, as far as I am aware, I end up at ADFA (Australian Defence Force Academy) and do a course (which I am unsure what, and how long for). Then after I basically go to 1FTS, then 2FTS etc. etc.

This is as far as I have gotten, can someone please fill in the gaps for me, and tell me what I should do, as the Australian Defence Force website is not very helpful.

Thanks in Advance.
Geez...if the Air League can't help you out...

You can go through ADFA or as a direct entry. Through ADFA, which is a campus of the UNSW, you get a degree, but you will need alot of good maths, physics and english marks to get there.

Via direct entry, marks are also important but the promotion chain throughout your careers will be a little slower without a degree unless you complete one part-time whilst working. You will also need to show significant maturity and aptitude to enter this way.

You're not too young to start talking to Defence Force recruiting offices - they'll advise you on what to study in Years 11 and 12, what marks are required to get in to ADFA or direct entry, and whether flying experience is an advantage or not.

Good luck

Magoo
 

phreeky

Active Member
Back at the end of my school years I went through the selection process etc but my colour blindness was a bit too severe (hence not being in the military at all). I was looking at going through ADFA, hence did physics/chem/maths subjects during school.

I think such subject choices (which obviously make a lot of sense for your career choice) are a good idea regardless of whether you actually make the cut or not, so I'd go that route.

As for flying time, I'm not sure whether it would matter for selection, but if you get far enough you'll be looking at having to do flying selection anyway, so it'd surely be an advantage there (assuming it still works that way). I did some flying lessons and stuff, and if you get a good instructor it's pretty fun (but expensive). On the flip side, a bad instructor is hell!

As Magoo said, defence recruiting should certainly be able to give you more assistance. Back when I was talking to them they were generally quite nice folks and easy to talk to. I'd like to think these days though they actually do the physical at an earlier stage than they used to, as I was unfortunate enough to go through multiple aptitude tests, a bunch of maths/english examinations etc, and then end up failing the medical stuff due to my eyes. Stupid.
 
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