Royal Australian Air Force [RAAF] News, Discussions and Updates

Tasman

Ship Watcher
Verified Defense Pro
In hindsight there is nothing wrong with building 5,000 hour certification Hornets. The aircraft should have been replaced from now with another anyway. >30 year lifetime (out to 2015 and onwards) is a far too ambitious ad ultimately miserly fleet management by Defence.
Very good point AGRA. IMO the ADF seems to be expecting far too much longevity from its combat aircraft. I always thought the RAAF should have replaced its Mirage III's with F-15C's and replaced its F-111C's with F-15E's as soon as the USAF made the decision to phase the F-111 out of its fleet. Had they done so, plans for transition to the F-35 would have been less rushed. However, that is all water under the bridge now and I think the RAAF is currently on the right track with SH's ordered to replace the F-111's. If it proves necessary (as the AA article suggests may be the case), I think a follow on SH order to replace the most worn of the Hornets would be the best way forward. A fleet of 48 Super Hornets and 72 F-35A's would be a potent force.

Tas
 

FutureTank

Banned Member
US and Australia Partners on Wideband Global SATCOM System

Release No. 051107
November 14,2007

US and Australia Partners on Wideband Global SATCOM System

WASHINGTON - In a move that will provide the United States and Australia assured access to worldwide satellite communication resources, the two countries signed an agreement today to cooperate on the Wideband Global SATCOM (WGS) system, expanding the WGS constellation to six satellites.

"The US-Australia WGS partnership is another example of the strength of the alliance between our nations and the effectiveness of relationship-building and development of mutually beneficial capabilities by the USAF," said Bruce Lemkin, Deputy Under Secretary of the Air Force (International Affairs).

Once operational, the WGS system will provide a quantum leap in communications bandwidth for the US and Australian warfighters. It will be DoD's high capacity communications satellite in the X and Ka-band frequency range.

WGS will provide deployed forces with unprecedented access to bandwidth-intensive applications such as video streaming, teleconferencing, real-time data transmission, and high-resolution imaging. In addition, the new wideband capability will offer support for the new generation of unmanned aerial vehicles, such as the Global Hawks and MQ-9 Reapers.

"The Air Force saw a 'win-win' opportunity to partner with Australia to gain much needed additional capability while also satisfying Australia's SATCOM requirements," said Gary Payton, Deputy Under Secretary of the Air Force for Space Programs.

The first WGS satellite is scheduled to achieve initial operational capability in early 2008 with full operational capability expected in 2013 following the launch of the sixth satellite.

"This is the epitome of cooperative development," Mr. Lemkin concluded.
 

McTaff

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
Release No. 051107
November 14,2007

US and Australia Partners on Wideband Global SATCOM System

WASHINGTON - In a move that will provide the United States and Australia assured access to worldwide satellite communication resources, the two countries signed an agreement today to cooperate on the Wideband Global SATCOM (WGS) system, expanding the WGS constellation to six satellites.

...

Once operational, the WGS system will provide a quantum leap in communications bandwidth for the US and Australian warfighters. It will be DoD's high capacity communications satellite in the X and Ka-band frequency range.

WGS will provide deployed forces with unprecedented access to bandwidth-intensive applications such as video streaming, teleconferencing, real-time data transmission, and high-resolution imaging. In addition, the new wideband capability will offer support for the new generation of unmanned aerial vehicles, such as the Global Hawks and MQ-9 Reapers.
This is seriously one of the better decisions made recently. We are unfortunately a little thin on SatCom at the moment, as there was no room to expand with our current inventory, and would have needed to put new resources into play.

Going tandem with Uncle Sam is a serious capability jump for us, as we wouldn't have had the ball rolling for some time.
 

FutureTank

Banned Member
This is seriously one of the better decisions made recently. We are unfortunately a little thin on SatCom at the moment, as there was no room to expand with our current inventory, and would have needed to put new resources into play.

Going tandem with Uncle Sam is a serious capability jump for us, as we wouldn't have had the ball rolling for some time.
The sad part is that it won't be appreciated very much by the Australian public because it doesn't make it on the news like the more tangible systems like tanks and ships.
 

Grandstrat

New Member
There seems to have been alot of talk about the loss of a capability gap by critics of the SH/F-35 option the RAAF has plumped for i.e. the lack of range and the lack of loiter time over targets.

I was wondering if Australia is would consider a sizeable force of UCAV's to provide the RAAF with longer range and loiter options. It may not be ideal but I would have thought that some long range unmanned vehicles would be just the ticket for Aus. We are already set to employ UAV's for maritime survellience, so would an armed vehicle be the next step?
 

Tasman

Ship Watcher
Verified Defense Pro
There seems to have been alot of talk about the loss of a capability gap by critics of the SH/F-35 option the RAAF has plumped for i.e. the lack of range and the lack of loiter time over targets.

I was wondering if Australia is would consider a sizeable force of UCAV's to provide the RAAF with longer range and loiter options. It may not be ideal but I would have thought that some long range unmanned vehicles would be just the ticket for Aus. We are already set to employ UAV's for maritime survellience, so would an armed vehicle be the next step?
AFAIK UCAV's remain an option for Phase 2C of AIR 6000 (as an alternative to a final tranche of F-35A's) but I doubt that the development of suitable operational types will occur soon enough to meet the RAAF timetable. For this reason I think that the RAAF is likely to end up with an F-35/SH force, with UCAV's a possibility to supplement this force further down the track.

IMO, I believe that there will be a substantial gain rather than any loss in capability provided by an F-35/SH combination when compared with what is currently offered by the F-111/Classic Hornet combination.

Tas
 

rjmaz1

New Member
Loiter times?

When you strike a country you want to get in and out as quick as possible.

In a high threat environment the F-35/SHornet combo will hit the same targets as the F-111s simply because the F-111's are limited to the range of their escorts and that they cant survive in a high threat enviroment.

I still think our C-130H models should be sent through the New Zealands upgrade program and then sent to the US to be turned into gunships. Both programs last time i checked were currently underway.

That provides all the loiter and excellent close air support you would need in a Fiji, East Timor crisis. Though i guess Australia will take the cheaper option by using helicopter for close air support operating from the conflict zone.
 

barra

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
Loiter times?

When you strike a country you want to get in and out as quick as possible.
Iraq and Afghanistan are both good examples of were an armed UCAV with extended loiter time would be a more than useful asset to cover ground forces on patrol.

Barra
 

Tasman

Ship Watcher
Verified Defense Pro
Iraq and Afghanistan are both good examples of were an armed UCAV with extended loiter time would be a more than useful asset to cover ground forces on patrol.

Barra
Good point Barra.

When I responded to Grandstrat I was thinking of sophisticated UCAV's performing long range strike missions against major heavily defended targets. For close air support there are already platforms like the Predator B (or MQ-9 Reaper) which is already being used in a limited way by the USAF in Afghanistan. I think that something along these lines would be extremely useful as an ADF asset.

Tas
 

Grandstrat

New Member
Good point Barra.

When I responded to Grandstrat I was thinking of sophisticated UCAV's performing long range strike missions against major heavily defended targets. For close air support there are already platforms like the Predator B (or MQ-9 Reaper) which is already being used in a limited way by the USAF in Afghanistan. I think that something along these lines would be extremely useful as an ADF asset.

Tas

I was thinking of a systems of UCAV's providing both long range strike missions and also close air support capabilities. I didn't know we had that option in AIR 6000 so that was useful to know.

thanks for the responses guys :D
 

AGRA

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
There seems to have been alot of talk about the loss of a capability gap by critics of the SH/F-35 option the RAAF has plumped for i.e. the lack of range and the lack of loiter time over targets.
The strike radius proponents, ie the compass club of Air Power Australia, fail to effectively take into account a range of important factors when talking up alleged capability gaps. As mentioned the need for an F-111 to be escorted by an air-to-air capable fighter.

However more important is actual deployment and likely missions. Australia’s defence strategy is no longer stuck in the 1942 mindset that any and all missions will be flown out of northern Australian bases against some terrible invader. In this case the rather marginal radius improvements (in operational and strategic terms) of the F-111 (1,160 NM) over an F/A-18F/F-35A (600 NM) are not of much importance (of course assuming you can find an ATA escort for the F-111),

Further adding advanced stand off weapons into the mix, such as JASSM-ER with 600 NM range (and the ADF has a JASSM-ER acquisition project on the boil for the 2018 timeframe), means the F/A-18F/F-35A can match the strike radius of the F-111.

There is no gap, except in the wallets of the authors of the Air 6000 RFI proposal for upgrading the F-111 for another 20+ years and buying F-22s. Of course these people are now calling themselves think tank advocates of this very offer (Air Power Australia). By the way if their offer is taken up they still expect to get paid…

I was wondering if Australia is would consider a sizeable force of UCAV's to provide the RAAF with longer range and loiter options. It may not be ideal but I would have thought that some long range unmanned vehicles would be just the ticket for Aus. We are already set to employ UAV's for maritime survellience, so would an armed vehicle be the next step?
As mentioned Air 6000 Phase 2C is still open for UCAVs. UCAV options in that time frame (2020) could include a missionised UCAS-D or even a UAV version of the USAF’s 2018 Bomber.

The advantages of the UCAV are manyfold, including much longer persistence. It just puts pilots out of a job and that may be the stickling point.
 

McTaff

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
The advantages of the UCAV are manyfold, including much longer persistence. It just puts pilots out of a job and that may be the stickling point.
Yep - only need to employ technicians and ACO's.

The only thing that stops full scale proliferation is the on-the-spot decision making and the ability to observe, identify, process and disseminate / eliminate threats. A UCAV alone can not 'see' everything at once; it does require a measure of broad-range surveillance to back it up. A pilot, on the other hand, can see all his instruments, make R/T calls and use the Mk 1 eyeball to see what is going on with that 'big picture' view you can't get by looking through a pinhole camera like a UCAV.

That said, a long-range fast two seat military aircraft with direct authority over one or more UCAVs is a sobering thought indeed, as they'd be able to remote target / remote strike / remote observe or detect, and have the ability to check stuff out by simply moving in to have a gander themselves.
 

rossfrb_1

Member
The strike radius proponents, ie the compass club of Air Power Australia, fail to effectively take into account a range of important factors when talking up alleged capability gaps. As mentioned the need for an F-111 to be escorted by an air-to-air capable fighter.

However more important is actual deployment and likely missions. Australia’s defence strategy is no longer stuck in the 1942 mindset that any and all missions will be flown out of northern Australian bases against some terrible invader.
ie they (the F-111) if operationally deployed would be based outside of Australia? In which case they would probably be used in conjunction with 'coalition' (US?) assets?

In this case the rather marginal radius improvements (in operational and strategic terms) of the F-111 (1,160 NM) over an F/A-18F/F-35A (600 NM) are not of much importance (of course assuming you can find an ATA escort for the F-111),
If used in conjunction with other coalition assets then wouldn't an 1160nm ranged bomber be an asset allowing more flexibility?


Further adding advanced stand off weapons into the mix, such as JASSM-ER with 600 NM range (and the ADF has a JASSM-ER acquisition project on the boil for the 2018 timeframe), means the F/A-18F/F-35A can match the strike radius of the F-111.
F-111 supposed to be retired in 2010, JASSM-ER (on your timeline) 2018 - that's an eight year gap.

There is no gap, except in the wallets of the authors of the Air 6000 RFI proposal for upgrading the F-111 for another 20+ years and buying F-22s. Of course these people are now calling themselves think tank advocates of this very offer (Air Power Australia). By the way if their offer is taken up they still expect to get paid…
Well Mother Theresa, Kopp and Goon aint.



As mentioned Air 6000 Phase 2C is still open for UCAVs. UCAV options in that time frame (2020) could include a missionised UCAS-D or even a UAV version of the USAF’s 2018 Bomber.

The advantages of the UCAV are manyfold, including much longer persistence. It just puts pilots out of a job and that may be the stickling point.
Doesn't RAAF have problems with getting sufficient numbers of pilots?

rb
 

barra

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
Yep - only need to employ technicians and ACO's.
Won't that be great - no knuckleheads!!!! :D

Also in response to rossfrb-1 comments, there have been a number of occasions when -111's could have been deployed but the govt of the day has decided on other options. Op Desert Storm, Op OIF/Falconer and current ops in Afghanistan all come to mind. The question is why? A combination of lack of EW self protection, lack of numbers and reliability and lack of support when deployed i.e. nobody else operates it anymore so we can't plug into our great and powerfull allies supply lines, have all counted against them being deployed at times.

The RAAF does not have a pilot shortage and has not for a number of years. Since the introduction of retention benefits for aircrew the poaching by airlines has died down. Fighter jocks are not the airlines target of choice anyway, aircrew of large multi engine aircraft such as C-130, C-17, B-707 and B-737 are all more likely to be poached.

Barra
 

the road runner

Active Member
WHAT WILL BE OUR FUTURE SUPERSONIC TRAINER?

I was wondering if the F-18F will become a fast jet trainer for the RAAF once the (if the)JSF is purchased?I was thinking that the RAAF will not have a fast jet trainer in its orbat once the JSF is purchased.(except the superbugs)

Our pilots start off on PILATS PC-7 then go on to HAWK 127 and then will they go straight on to JSF in the future,from a subsonic plane(hawk) straight on to the JSF?

I hope that when the JSF come into service the superbugs will be used as a supersonic trainer to futhere the training of our pilots,and also use some superbugs as a forward air control aircraft.

Would this be how the RAAF would use our superbugs once the RAAF has enough JSF in our orbat, or like most people have said on this forum ,will it be a 50/50 mix of JSF and SUPERBUGS?

I personally do not like the idea of having 1 plane to do the job of Air Defence and ground attack,as i truley believe that you use a bomber to bomb targets and you use a fighter to do Air Defence tasks,what do the other members think of this idea?

Please shoot holes :sniper in my ideas as debate is what we are here for

Thanx

MEEP MEEP
 

rjmaz1

New Member
the F/A-18F/F-35A can match the strike radius of the F-111.
Spot on! i keep trying to tell people this but they think the F-111 is some kind os super long ranged aircraft. Mach 2.5, 2000 mile range and 10,000+ kg bomb load what an awesome aircraft the F-111 is! its a shame it can only do one these things per mission.. ;)

I was wondering if the F-18F will become a fast jet trainer for the RAAF once the (if the)JSF is purchased?
The funny thing is the Hawk cruises just as fast as the Super Hornet. So the Super Hornet isn't a fast jet trainer after all. Remember the key is to not compare top speeds of aircraft, compare the operational cruising speeds.

Our pilots start off on PILATS PC-7 then go on to HAWK 127 and then will they go straight on to JSF in the future,from a subsonic plane(hawk) straight on to the JSF?
Yep they will go straight to the JSF. Most supersonic aircraft spend their time traveling subsonic, so there would be little benefit in having a supersonic trainer.

The F-35 can pretty much takeoff and land by itself so you dont need to add an extra training step. Pilots will be able to go straight from the hawk to the F_35 without any problems at all.
 

McTaff

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
The F-35 can pretty much takeoff and land by itself so you dont need to add an extra training step. Pilots will be able to go straight from the hawk to the F_35 without any problems at all.
There is still the task of replacing the PC-9 fleet which is getting quite old. The current thought is to have the replacement in service around the same time, but that's a fairly open-ended statement as there is no solid process in place yet.

But in any case, there is no real big difference regarding going from one aircraft to another, theoretically we could train pilots on CT4B and plonk them directly into a Hawk, and they should be able to do the job. The issue is that CT4B can't actually do some of the more difficult training sorties, and lacks high-altitude ability.

It is difficult, however, to place a pilot directly into a PC-9 or a Hawk and teach them to fly, as they are a powerful plane to learn on and much less forgiving of mistakes. With PC-9's it is plausible that you could do so, but there are further factors. The graduated program is designed to allow early training to take place on a forgiving aircraft, and then step up into one that requires skill to pilot. Cruising speed is one of the last things to worry about.

In reality, the graduated program has one even greater advantage; cost. A program utilising CT4, then PC-9, then subsequent types is cheaper than replacing CT4's with PC-9 for a huge PC-9 fleet.

Adding a supersonic trainer is of no benefit as there is little more to learn after coming from a PC-9 to a supersonic trainer before converting to another supersonic aircraft.

roadrunner said:
I personally do not like the idea of having 1 plane to do the job of Air Defence and ground attack,as i truley believe that you use a bomber to bomb targets and you use a fighter to do Air Defence tasks,what do the other members think of this idea?
As for the 'one plane fits all' approach of multi-role operations, the real decision making process occurs with expected operations you would have to conduct. If you are expecting an operation where you would need to conduct a protracted bombing campaign against a fortified enemy, then you'd have strategic bombers. Tactical bombers are on the way out because of the extreme accuracy of guided weapons; one weapon can do the job of what used to take several plane loads to do, particularly with the new stand-off weapons.

Why not just get a fighter to carry a couple of smart bombs out, drop them on whatever target is required, and still have the ability to engage the enemy in air-to-air combat? A tactical bomber like the F-111 requires support aircraft, and effectively makes them into nothing more than a transport aircraft for munitions, as if the supporting aircraft could do the bombing, the F-111 wouldn't be needed in the first place.

F-15E, F-35 and F-18E/F are examples of aircraft that can 'do it all' even though it seems they can't do it all at once. The best part is that even if they can't do it all at once, at least they can do different things on different days. If we need a bunch of fighters, they can all be fighters. If we need bombers, they can all be bombers. Unfortunately, the F-111 is only able to do one thing well, and anything else is pretty ordinary.

If Australia had lots of money buried in coffee tins out the back, potentially we could get some of the sexy goodness that is the B-1 Lancer. That'd be a nice addition to our fleet to put to use as a strike bomber. That's after we go through our current wish list of F-22's and Growlers, four full sized aircraft carriers, a new fleet of escort submarines, and a handful of ASW destroyers and AEGIS cruisers.

Unfortunately, we are limited to what we can work with. Multi-role is the name of the game, because if you can do most things quite well then you are better off than doing one job great.
 

the road runner

Active Member
I see ,so our pilots can learn on a CT4 trainer then go to an PC9,then onto hawk and they will be ready for the good fight,remarkable,and i always thought a pilot had to fly a supersonic trainer to be qualified for supersonic fighters,thanks for the info rjmaz1.AND the JSF can land and takeoff by itself well technology is a great thing hu,it seems the JSF will be an extra ordinary plane.

Also McTaff,thanks for the info on on the F18 beieng able to"do it all",i do really like the Superbugs for the flexibility they will bring to the RAAF,and also i like the idea of the RAAF getting similar capabilities to the US NAVY,as i think if we are ever attacked (like in WW2)the US NAVY will be the ones who will hopefully help defend OZ,and it makes sense to use the same wepon systems and wepons as them(US NAVY),especially how a number of wepons like SLAM-ER,HARPOON,JDAMS and LIGHTNING PODS(?) are already used or will be used by the US NAVY.(also saves the ADF heaps 0f $$$$$ on not having to intergrate these wepons onto our fighters as uncle sam will pay for that) Hopefully the money saved will buy more JSF or SUPER BUGS

The reason i do not like one plane(fighter and bomber) for the ADF is what happens if a fault is found (like US F-15C)we will have 100+JSF that will be grounded,that means no fighter cover what so ever till these faults can be fixed.

I do like the idea of a 50/50 mix(2 different planes) say 50+JSF and 50+ Superbugs as if there is a fault found with one plane only half our fleet is grounded and hopefully the other half can carry the burden till we fix the fault with our fleet.

Thanx for the info GUYS i am starting to learn alot on this forum

MEEP MEEP:cheers
 

Tasman

Ship Watcher
Verified Defense Pro
The reason i do not like one plane(fighter and bomber) for the ADF is what happens if a fault is found (like US F-15C)we will have 100+JSF that will be grounded,that means no fighter cover what so ever till these faults can be fixed.
I also prefer a two aircraft option for the same reason. It can also make it easier to manage replacements down the track as it can avoid all of the fleet reaching obsolescence and needing replacement at the same time. I would much rather see half our air combat force replaced every 10/15 years rather than the entire force changed over every 20/30 years.

So far as grounding the fleet because of a fault is concerned this is a prudent safety measure in peacetime. In a wartime situation it is probable that a higher level of risk would be accepted and that aircraft would continue flying if they were badly needed.

Tas
 

rjmaz1

New Member
I would much rather see half our air combat force replaced every 10/15 years rather than the entire force changed over every 20/30 years.
This is actually what we should try and do.

Have two aircraft types and leap frog eachother with the latest aircraft becoming the frontline aircraft and the older aircraft providing a second low combat mix.

Having two aircraft types leap frogging eachother also offers many other benifits. For instance we had to upgrade our classic Hornets with APG-73 radars. If we had of instead purchased some F-15E's then the Classic Hornets could have stayed un-upgraded. Another instance is that the Classic Hornets could have been retired without feeling guilty considering we had spent so much money on upgrading them.

The only way we can have a leap frogging procurement process is if we have two multi-role fighters. You cant leap frog with a bomber and fighter aircraft as the fighters would then be too old for the bombers and vice versa.

India does this extremely well and has 4 primary combat aircraft types. The oldest ones get replaced with the latest technology and they all shift down a space.

Australia might be able to finally start this more effecient procurement process with the Super Hornets. The F-35 will then be the next leap frog and then the replacement for the Super Hornets will then leap frog again with the F-35's moving to a secondary role.
 
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