Royal Australian Air Force [RAAF] News, Discussions and Updates

A

Aussie Digger

Guest
WHAT WILL BE OUR FUTURE SUPERSONIC TRAINER?

I was wondering if the F-18F will become a fast jet trainer for the RAAF once the (if the)JSF is purchased?I was thinking that the RAAF will not have a fast jet trainer in its orbat once the JSF is purchased.(except the superbugs)

Our pilots start off on PILATS PC-7 then go on to HAWK 127 and then will they go straight on to JSF in the future,from a subsonic plane(hawk) straight on to the JSF?

I hope that when the JSF come into service the superbugs will be used as a supersonic trainer to futhere the training of our pilots,and also use some superbugs as a forward air control aircraft.

Would this be how the RAAF would use our superbugs once the RAAF has enough JSF in our orbat, or like most people have said on this forum ,will it be a 50/50 mix of JSF and SUPERBUGS?

I personally do not like the idea of having 1 plane to do the job of Air Defence and ground attack,as i truley believe that you use a bomber to bomb targets and you use a fighter to do Air Defence tasks,what do the other members think of this idea?

Please shoot holes :sniper in my ideas as debate is what we are here for

Thanx

MEEP MEEP
What is our current supersonic trainer? The Hawk isn't and the PC-9???

The SH will eventually be an entirely outclassed fighter aircraft. It certainly isn't at present, but I'm not sure what capability benefits the SH has over the F-35 JSF.

This more than anything else is why I don't see a dual fighter force for RAAF in years to come.

IF F-22 were available and IF we could afford and IF we were in danger of entering a serious war and IF the F-35 couldn't handle the threat and IF the F-22 production line were still open, then perhaps a dual F-22/F35 fleet might make sense for Australia.

Until all those "if's" become "definites", I don't see a great benefit in operating a dual force, once the F-35 is operational.
 

McTaff

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
I've championed the two-airframe status in a big way over in the Navy forum for the same reasons listed here. It's too big a risk, only to find out the service life is grossly overestimated, or structural failures are found and aircraft grounded.

The leapfrog, or "parallel offset integration" (in techlegalese) is a fantastic way of spreading cost, avoiding project backlogs, and maximising capability.

I'd like to see a two-airframe minimum, but as with the Navy, looks like they are barracking for a single type for maintenance reasons. Beats me why.
 
A

Aussie Digger

Guest
I've championed the two-airframe status in a big way over in the Navy forum for the same reasons listed here. It's too big a risk, only to find out the service life is grossly overestimated, or structural failures are found and aircraft grounded.

The leapfrog, or "parallel offset integration" (in techlegalese) is a fantastic way of spreading cost, avoiding project backlogs, and maximising capability.

I'd like to see a two-airframe minimum, but as with the Navy, looks like they are barracking for a single type for maintenance reasons. Beats me why.
At present a 2 tiered force would mean that we'd have to invest in an inferior aircraft to the F-35 to get 2 separate platforms most likely.

If F-22 could be acquired, perhaps F-22/F-35 would be useful, but operating a 4.5 gen aircraft instead of an F-35?

A Eurofighter might and this is a BIG might, provide a small increase in A2A capability over the F-35A, but is going to be significantly deficient for strike operations.

An easier option, might be to run a dual engined fleet, ie: F-135 and F-136 and thereby eliminate what I mimagine is a significant risk issue: engines.

Airframe life shouldn't be an issue in early and mid-service life, I shouldn't think, only towards the end of it's service life, it might be wise to invest in a replacement earlier...

Be interesting to hear Magoo and Barra's thoughts on the single / twin aircraft fleet options...
 

rjmaz1

New Member
At present a 2 tiered force would mean that we'd have to invest in an inferior aircraft to the F-35 to get 2 separate platforms most likely.

If F-22 could be acquired, perhaps F-22/F-35 would be useful, but operating a 4.5 gen aircraft instead of an F-35?
Hold on a tick. The Super Hornet is a 4.5 gen aircraft and is an inferior aircraft to the F-35. So we wont be getting a 4.5 gen aircraft instead of the F-35. We will be getting a 4.5 gen aircraft BEFORE the F-35.

If the second batch of Super Hornets goes ahead then we will definitely be operating a 2 tiered force and in my opinion this will be a better long term option even though an all F-35 may be a more powerful mid term option.

We would then be able to do the more effecient leap frogging system. In my opinion the money saved by not having to upgrade the aircraft and instead dropping them to the second tier will more than make up for the extra cost of operating a second aircraft type.

For example if we had of purchased Super Hornets in 1999 instead of starting the Hornet Upgrade Program we could have saved money. The cost of upgrading the Classic hornets with APG-73 could have purchased quite a few Super Hornets with APG-73. The Classic Hornets would then have droped down to the second tier with the Super Hornets becoming our primary aircraft. As the Classic Hornets we would have still have used the old APG-65 we could have just thrown them in the bin and not worried about the centre barrel replacement. Or alternatively the Classic Hornets could have flown less allowing them to last longer as it would no longer be our only fighter.

A two tier force can providing big savings and most importantly it offers significant risk reduction.

Though the F-111 would have made it a 3 aircraft force, but atleast with the retirement of the F-111 we may now be able to have an effecient 2 tier procurement process.
 

McTaff

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
Hold on a tick. The Super Hornet is a 4.5 gen aircraft and is an inferior aircraft to the F-35. So we wont be getting a 4.5 gen aircraft instead of the F-35. We will be getting a 4.5 gen aircraft BEFORE the F-35.

If the second batch of Super Hornets goes ahead then we will definitely be operating a 2 tiered force and in my opinion this will be a better long term option even though an all F-35 may be a more powerful mid term option.

We would then be able to do the more effecient leap frogging system. In my opinion the money saved by not having to upgrade the aircraft and instead dropping them to the second tier will more than make up for the extra cost of operating a second aircraft type.

For example if we had of purchased Super Hornets in 1999 instead of starting the Hornet Upgrade Program we could have saved money. The cost of upgrading the Classic hornets with APG-73 could have purchased quite a few Super Hornets with APG-73. The Classic Hornets would then have droped down to the second tier with the Super Hornets becoming our primary aircraft. As the Classic Hornets we would have still have used the old APG-65 we could have just thrown them in the bin and not worried about the centre barrel replacement. Or alternatively the Classic Hornets could have flown less allowing them to last longer as it would no longer be our only fighter.

A two tier force can providing big savings and most importantly it offers significant risk reduction.

Though the F-111 would have made it a 3 aircraft force, but atleast with the retirement of the F-111 we may now be able to have an effecient 2 tier procurement process.
AD, RJMAZ explains it quite well here.

The F-18E/F is the first airframe, the F-35 the second, and ahead of the 10-year mark for F-35 there would be another tender for the F-18E/F replacement to be chosen, etc.

It would be something like having half a fleet of Hurricanes, and half Spitfires. You then replace Hurricanes with Mustangs.
Then your Spitfires with Meteors.
Then your Mustangs with Javelins,
Then your Meteors with Starfighters,
Then your Hunters with Phantoms,
...etc.

As the RAAF at the moment has a set of F-18A's and soon to have F-18E/F. There is no need at the moment for us to purchase another set of airframes. Between the F-18 upgrade and the F-18E/F's we'll be getting, they will cover our needs and will tide us over until after the F-35 is bought online, assuming that the project (a) doesn't run overtime and (b) the cost doesn't blow out (which is a pretty big ask, I know). Then the F-35 rotates to the front, we retire the extraneous F-18A's, and that means the next replacement cycle will kick off the F-18E/F and we get a new airframe which becomes the frontline, with the F-35's rotating to the secondary airframe. Then, it is replaced with the next airframe which rotates to the front....

The theory is that your capability is re-benchmarked at each cycle with the more recent airframe, instead of having an entire Air Force of what is possibly a 20-year old airframe, looking desperately for a replacement.

The little bit of fat you have by having half of your available aircraft being a current and up-to-date-ish model allows you to potentially put off replacing the 'secondary' airframe for a couple of years if there is an aircraft nearing the end of development instead of being desperate and having to buy what is available at the time, or also is makes retiring aircraft which are at the end of service life a much easier proposition if you are only buying up half your total combat airforce in replacement airframes at a time.
 

Navor86

Member
I really wonder what happens if Rudd gets elected. He ones pushed for the F22 and if Knopps Numbers are right Aus could purchase 75 Raptors with the Money alocated to the JSF,those + the 24 Super Hornet would be a great Force. Time will see,iirc the decision will be made 2008 and the great if is if the US willing to sell them
 

Grandstrat

New Member
I really wonder what happens if Rudd gets elected. He ones pushed for the F22 and if Knopps Numbers are right Aus could purchase 75 Raptors with the Money alocated to the JSF,those + the 24 Super Hornet would be a great Force. Time will see,iirc the decision will be made 2008 and the great if is if the US willing to sell them
Well he's been elected. Can't get into politics obviously, but there are a number of defence decisions that have to be made in the next few years (4th AWD, F-35 numbers etc.) so it will be interesting to see what direction a new government will take in regard to defence. Because the size and compsition of the defence force will have a direct correlation to the foreign policy goals of the new government.
 
A

Aussie Digger

Guest
AD, RJMAZ explains it quite well here.

The F-18E/F is the first airframe, the F-35 the second, and ahead of the 10-year mark for F-35 there would be another tender for the F-18E/F replacement to be chosen, etc.

It would be something like having half a fleet of Hurricanes, and half Spitfires. You then replace Hurricanes with Mustangs.
Then your Spitfires with Meteors.
Then your Mustangs with Javelins,
Then your Meteors with Starfighters,
Then your Hunters with Phantoms,
...etc.

As the RAAF at the moment has a set of F-18A's and soon to have F-18E/F. There is no need at the moment for us to purchase another set of airframes. Between the F-18 upgrade and the F-18E/F's we'll be getting, they will cover our needs and will tide us over until after the F-35 is bought online, assuming that the project (a) doesn't run overtime and (b) the cost doesn't blow out (which is a pretty big ask, I know). Then the F-35 rotates to the front, we retire the extraneous F-18A's, and that means the next replacement cycle will kick off the F-18E/F and we get a new airframe which becomes the frontline, with the F-35's rotating to the secondary airframe. Then, it is replaced with the next airframe which rotates to the front....

The theory is that your capability is re-benchmarked at each cycle with the more recent airframe, instead of having an entire Air Force of what is possibly a 20-year old airframe, looking desperately for a replacement.

The little bit of fat you have by having half of your available aircraft being a current and up-to-date-ish model allows you to potentially put off replacing the 'secondary' airframe for a couple of years if there is an aircraft nearing the end of development instead of being desperate and having to buy what is available at the time, or also is makes retiring aircraft which are at the end of service life a much easier proposition if you are only buying up half your total combat airforce in replacement airframes at a time.
I understand the theory, I'm just not sure that operating the F/A-18F in the 2020-2030 timeframe is a good idea for RAAF, and no OTHER aircraft is likely to be operated by 2020 by the RAAF besides the F-35A.

The F-35A/C is the only aircraft I consider suitable as a single air combat aircraft type for Australia. Any other aircraft, even F-22 has various weaknesses that need to be covered by other aircraft.

As I repeat from earlier, if the F-22 could be purchased by Australia, (ALL the limiting factors taken into account, not the "starry eyed" ideals of APA and their ilk) and perhaps with the upcoming "air power review" then the "rolling fleet" idea would be a great idea, starting of course with the F-22 and preferrably the F/A-18F, to roll over to a mature F-35 dominated system starting in the 2017/18 timeframe.

I'm just not sure that it's a particularly good idea with our present (and I include F/A-18F in this) combat aircraft fleet.

My preferrences would therefore be:

A) F-22 and additional F/A-18F to be ordered now and the legacy Hornets replaced ASAP.

An F-35A/C purchase to provide the bulk of our air combat force with IOC in the 2018-2020 range, replacing the F/A-18F in the current scheduled timeframe.

B) RAAF's current plan, IF F-22 can't be acquired. The possibility of a UCAV system to replace the Rhino's exists, but an enormous amount of work would need to be done for an operational capability to exist by 2020 and I can't see RAAF leading the way with such an advanced capability.

I would (almost) bet my house that RAAF would not order a UCAV until one is in-service and operationally proven within USAF/USN.

The reason for this is the capability of the F-35, which promises to be simply astonishing, if the comments of the test pilots and it's sheer statistics are even close to the truth. I would rather the single type fleet of F-35A's than a dual force of anything less capable than it.

Risks can always be managed and when was the last time a modern Western fighter force was grounded for a significant length of time? Even the F-15 fleet was only grounded for about a week and a half, max and if a war suddenly erupted, they would have been flown anyway.

Given the number of Countries that are relying o the F-35, I can't see any "grounding" issues being significant enough to compromise our security for any length of time.
 

Ozzy Blizzard

New Member
AD summs that up perfectally....

The fact of the matter is we would be sacrificing a serious amount of capability just so we can manage some risk and aviod some upgrade programes. To me thats a trade off that just doesent make any sence.
 

barra

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
For example if we had of purchased Super Hornets in 1999 instead of starting the Hornet Upgrade Program we could have saved money. The cost of upgrading the Classic hornets with APG-73 could have purchased quite a few Super Hornets with APG-73. The Classic Hornets would then have droped down to the second tier with the Super Hornets becoming our primary aircraft. As the Classic Hornets we would have still have used the old APG-65 we could have just thrown them in the bin and not worried about the centre barrel replacement. Or alternatively the Classic Hornets could have flown less allowing them to last longer as it would no longer be our only fighter.
I don't understand why you are so hung up on the APG-65 replacement. :confused: It has been stated here before that the APG-65 was replaced by the APG-73 primarily because its capabilities were compromised. The USN was not going to operate a radar in their frontline fighters that possible opponents knew back to front, so the -73 was developed. The radar itself still uses the old APG-65 transmitter and power supply even today. Replacing the radar was a minor and relatively easy part of HUG. I don't know the actual cost of the replacement but I suspect you may have been able to buy one or two Super Hornets for the same amount.

I don't mind the prospect of operating only one fighter type, as long as we get sufficient numbers. I would prefer to see the RAAF operate 120 F-35s. That would give us the luxury of enough numbers to carry out upgrades, deployments and training at the same time. Rather than the mess we have had to endure over the last 2-3 years in the Hornet world. Lack of numbers is a trend that seems to affect all ADF projects at the moment. Look at the Tigers, Chinooks, MRH-90, AWD, Abrams tanks, Self propelled artillery, F/A-18s the list goes on. We just don't buy our hardware in sufficient numbers to cover all eventualities.

Barra
 

rjmaz1

New Member
I understand the theory, I'm just not sure that operating the F/A-18F in the 2020-2030 timeframe is a good idea for RAAF, and no OTHER aircraft is likely to be operated by 2020 by the RAAF besides the F-35A.
The F-35A in 2020-2030 would be performing precision strike and air to air against the latest russian aircraft. It will be the only aircraft flying over enemy territory.

The F/A-18F would be at the back performing close air support in low threat environments, acting as a UCAV controller, possibly acting as jammers and escorting tankers etc.

By going with the F-35 we do not get any extra capability in these roles. You dont need stealth to act as a jammer, a UCAV controller or a tanker escort. The F/A-18F has more capability in these areas as its 2 seat setup allows for it to perform as a jammer and UCAV controller which may end up being basic upgardes that the US Navy performs. We could get these done cheap.

I don't understand why you are so hung up on the APG-65 replacement. It has been stated here before that the APG-65 was replaced by the APG-73 primarily because its capabilities were compromised.
If we purchased 48 Super Hornets in 1999 we could have kept 48 Classic Hornets with the APG-65 regardless if it was compromised. The Super Hornet would have been performing teh frontline missions the Classic Hornets would be bomb trucks or tanker escorts and could even have their radars switched off all together.

Im just using that as example as teh UG program cost alot of money. Performing the HUG upgrades and CBR replacement on a single Classic Hornets exceeds half the value of buying a brand new Super Hornet. That is crazy in my opinion as the Super Hornet will have more flight hours and have all the avionics you would want.
 

Pro'forma

New Member
The F-35A in 2020-2030 would be performing precision strike and air to air against the latest russian aircraft. It will be the only aircraft flying over enemy territory.

The F/A-18F would be at the back performing close air support in low threat environments, acting as a UCAV controller, possibly acting as jammers and escorting tankers etc.

By going with the F-35 we do not get any extra capability in these roles. You dont need stealth to act as a jammer, a UCAV controller or a tanker escort. The F/A-18F has more capability in these areas as its 2 seat setup allows for it to perform as a jammer and UCAV controller which may end up being basic upgardes that the US Navy performs. We could get these done cheap.
The JF could perform more extra, what you think ?
Not that there is any miouses of Arizona, from ground to highs,
takes little time.
 
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Magoo

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
If we purchased 48 Super Hornets in 1999 we could have kept 48 Classic Hornets with the APG-65 regardless if it was compromised. The Super Hornet would have been performing teh frontline missions the Classic Hornets would be bomb trucks or tanker escorts and could even have their radars switched off all together.
If we'd bought Super Hornets in 1999, we'd probably be looking to trade them in on Block 2s as soon as possible. Apart from more range and payload, the Block 1 wasn't much better than the F/A-18C, and in some areas, inferior to the HUGged F/A-18s.

rjmaz1 said:
Im just using that as example as teh UG program cost alot of money. Performing the HUG upgrades and CBR replacement on a single Classic Hornets exceeds half the value of buying a brand new Super Hornet. That is crazy in my opinion as the Super Hornet will have more flight hours and have all the avionics you would want.
That's a nonsensical argument. If you buy Super Hornets you also need to buy the infrastructure, training, support etc etc. You don't just go and buy a single jet! The 24 jets comprise just $2.9bn on the $6.6bn Air 5349 BACC project cost.

Re the question of single or multiple aircraft types - I subscribe to the multiple point of view, but more so the RAAF can maximise the flexibility by doing so.

Also, if you can stagger the buys effectively, it also has the effect of spreading the financial pain of acquisition. With the benefit of 20:20 vision, there's alot to be said for the argument that we should have replaced the Pigs in the mid 1990s with 36 F-15Es, a decade after the Hornets were finished, and a decade and a half before the need to replace the Hornets. This way, we wouldn't have needed to do HUG, could have replaced the Hornets with Super Hornets in 2007/08, and then the F-15Es with F-35s from 2015-2020.

Cheers

Magoo
 

rjmaz1

New Member
If we'd bought Super Hornets in 1999, we'd probably be looking to trade them in on Block 2s as soon as possible. Apart from more range and payload, the Block 1 wasn't much better than the F/A-18C, and in some areas, inferior to the HUGged F/A-18s.
Yes but if we purchased Block 1 Super Hornets there would have been no gap before the F-35.

The main reason we are buying the Super Hornets is not because of its capabilities but because it fills the gap and makes up the numbers for when the F-35 arrives. The Block 1 Super Hornets would have eliminated this gap and would have been good enough to last us until the F-35 arrived.


With the benefit of 20:20 vision, there's alot to be said for the argument that we should have replaced the Pigs in the mid 1990s with 36 F-15Es, a decade after the Hornets were finished, and a decade and a half before the need to replace the Hornets. This way, we wouldn't have needed to do HUG, could have replaced the Hornets with Super Hornets in 2007/08, and then the F-15Es with F-35s from 2015-2020.
Or alternatively we could have replaced the F-111's with not 36 but 50 or so F-15E's. The Classic Hornet squadrons could have been condensed to maximise their operational life and the Classic Hornets could then have transfered to the F-35 completely bypassing the Super Hornet. The F-15E would have offered excellent A2A capability that would eliminate the requirement for the Super Hornet.

As you agree that the F-15E option would have been great. I take it you then see the merits of having a leap frogging procurement process?
 

gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Spot on! i keep trying to tell people this but they think the F-111 is some kind os super long ranged aircraft. Mach 2.5, 2000 mile range and 10,000+ kg bomb load what an awesome aircraft the F-111 is! its a shame it can only do one these things per mission.. ;)
It's not the platform - its the package, the cost of that package (logistics impediment, not financial) and how it influences or effects other operations.

you could make the JSF curcumnavigate the earth if you wanted to - its the relative efficiencies and cross force burden that count. (wtness the Turtle)

At the IP address that you're so proud of, they should have taught you that by now.....
 

Pro'forma

New Member
Spot on! i keep trying to tell people this but they think the F-111 is some kind os super long ranged aircraft. Mach 2.5, 2000 mile range and 10,000+ kg bomb load what an awesome aircraft the F-111 is! its a shame it can only do one these things per mission.. ;)
This topic is specifications, noting only you know.
Is F-111 sold to museum ? I cannot even doubt calculating range and that kg-b loads are awesome to museum.
 
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RubiconNZ

The Wanderer
Thanks for the links, yeah either government was committed to a white paper next year it will be very interesting indeed.
 
A

Aussie Digger

Guest
It's easy to be critical when in Opposition I imagine. You are not responsible for delivering anything.

Labor's criticism on Seasprite is rich. They approved the bloody thing in the first place.

As to the Super Hornet, I think it will stay. APA's plan will fade away on the "winds of time"...
 

AGRA

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
Labor's criticism on Seasprite is rich. They approved the bloody thing in the first place.
No they didn't. The Seasprite was selected after the 1996 election.

As to the Super Hornet, I think it will stay. APA's plan will fade away on the "winds of time"...
APA getting an actual gurnsey in defence? You must be smoking some bad canola to even think it a possibility!
 
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