ADF recruitment crisis.

Todjaeger

Potstirrer
If things are so good why is there a problem in recruitment, in a time of invasion may of the requirements are wavered, as society moves forward so in some aspects defense needs to also. Nothing is free in life.

Freedom is not Free
As mentioned before, some of the recruitment issues facing the ADF seem somewhat self-inflicted.

Given that the economy and employment numbers are good, the ADF is competing with non-military/governmental employers for qualified personnel. The problem as I see it is not so much a lack of potentially qualified candidates for the ADF, rather, the whole process needed to join up is too complicated and drawn out. How many employees would be willing to wait six months to a year between the time of application and employment? Given the competitive employment market, other positions are available without such a drawnout process. Naturally, many become discouraged and do not join the ADF.

-Cheers
 

Stryker001

Banned Member
Adf

Yeah thats true in my opinion there are a lot sociological issues that impact on recruitment.

In certain strategic circumstances, the US cannot defend Australia, perhaps you get some marines but that would be it.

Therefore, that leaves the only option of insurgency and guerrilla warfare over a sustained period to drive out the invaders.

An Australian insurgency to drive out and cause chaos to the occupier a minimum of 2.8 million personnel are required operating in various functions, plus supply lines from foreign Governments.

That’s aside from the Government and ADF and their operations.

and not all those groups would be under the command of the displaced ADF or the former Government and not the puppet Government of the occupier.

which leaves a grab for political power at the end of the conflict.
 
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icelord

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
There is no facial hair allowed in the Aussie Army?
Just because of the respirator problem or does it has more to do with traditions...?
I believe Pioneers are allowed a beard, goes with the Axes they carry.

As for Tatt, we have a bloke called stickers,he has more tatts then some bikies, so thats no worries, and 40% of the division have a tatt somewhere, excluding face.

The criminal record is only an issue if your going for a High clearence in some jobs, you'll find out when in DFR(sometimes) whether your clear top apply depending on what you did
And if you want any of those rules lifted, may i suggest you find something else to do:rolleyes:
 
A

Aussie Digger

Guest
Yeah thats true in my opinion there are a lot sociological issues that impact on recruitment.

In certain strategic circumstances, the US cannot defend Australia, perhaps you get some marines but that would be it.

Therefore, that leaves the only option of insurgency and guerrilla warfare over a sustained period to drive out the invaders.

An Australian insurgency to drive out and cause chaos to the occupier a minimum of 2.8 million personnel are required operating in various functions, plus supply lines from foreign Governments.

That’s aside from the Government and ADF and their operations.

and not all those groups would be under the command of the displaced ADF or the former Government and not the puppet Government of the occupier.

which leaves a grab for political power at the end of the conflict.
An invasion?

WTF are you smoking brother? Who is going to conduct this invasion and for why?

Next you'll be telling us that civilians need guns so we can defend Oz with an insurgency and that we need tin foil hats to prevent radio waves from brainwashing us...

The thread is about issues with Australian recruiting. There have been a few "what if" invasion of Australia threads in the past if you care to look for them.

AD
 

old faithful

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
I believe Pioneers are allowed a beard, goes with the Axes they carry.

As for Tatt, we have a bloke called stickers,he has more tatts then some bikies, so thats no worries, and 40% of the division have a tatt somewhere, excluding face.

The criminal record is only an issue if your going for a High clearence in some jobs, you'll find out when in DFR(sometimes) whether your clear top apply depending on what you did
And if you want any of those rules lifted, may i suggest you find something else to do:rolleyes:
as for pioneers beard...that belong to 2 or 4 RAR pioneer SGT ONLY! not sure which one, but not both! Some spec wf and inf bns relax shaveing out bush if water is a problem. (lack of) moustaches are allowed, but trimmed in line with with the top lip. No merv hughes or porno mo,s allowed. Any way, who really cares about facial hair or regulation haircuts? Once you have finished training and are posted to a unit, it becomes a pretty normal life style, with subsidised houseing and free medical. salary is pretty competitive, and lenders are only to happy to loan servicemen and women plety of$$$. it is after all, a very secure profession.
 

McTaff

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
If the ADF wants to increase recruitment and retainment standard six year contracts with the option of re-upping for 1,2, 4 or 6 years contracts.

Allow long hair.
Facial hair.
Less stringent standards on tattoo’s.
50 days holiday periods apart from weekend leave.
Less stringent requirement on criminal matters.
Less stringent requirements on recreational drug matters.
Free education for their off-spring.
Allowing women to be involved in direct combat.
A trial of women in Spec-Ops.
Lifting the age for recruitment into Spec-Ops
A direct recruitment of Women and men of non-Anglo Saxon backgrounds as they are vital for gathering HUMINT in the AO.
The acquirement of Citizenship liked directly to ADF service with in a certain age group 18 to 45 including reserve service. ( this allows ASIO operatives in the ADF to ?)




And perhaps making it so personnel don’t have to by their own equipment.
Most of what is listed here, as GF and AD have pointed out, are matters of discipline. If you aren't getting enough folks to join, the simple solution isn't to lower standards.

It also appears you have been misled on a few points, such as...

-Facial hair: As pointed out, the Navy allows full beards, some other areas of the military allow a mustache, etc.
-Tattoos: There is no standard as far as I am aware. Nor do you really need permission. The main reason they ask for ALL identifying marks is that they give an insight into the person, but mainly simply for identification purposes.
-Criminal matters: There is no absolute exclusion policy. In effect, the issue is that you comply with FULL disclosure - non-disclosure will cause your application to be denied, but they will investigate what you do supply to them. If they are satisfied that it is only minor, and doesn't contribute to habitual offences, nor pose a security risk, then you may still be considered.
-I didn't have to purchase my own kit. I don't know what branch of the ADF you'd have to fork out money for when you join, but I've never heard of it. The taxpayer foots the bill for most items you are issued with. There is the issue of you having to provide some sundries, you may have to replace some items, and there are certain items that you do have to pay for if lost of damaged. However, for some of us lucky folk, a Uniform Allowance is paid to me, which is directly used for (and accounted for) upkeep, replacement and repair of my kit.

As for most other things, there are reasons behind why there are specific restrictions. For instance, long hair has a few things going against it - hygiene consideration, the risk of having hand-to-hand combat result in your hair as a handhold for your opponent and the ever-present OH&S risk of moving machinery catching and chewing your hair (and potentially your face).

National Service (which some fully support) is a completely different thing. Acceptance is based on you being able to conduct physical activity, speak, and read. Not much else goes into it - you are issued a kit, put through the meat grinder, taught what you need to know, and that is pretty much it. This is where recruiting standards are at the absolute lowest. Any serious career soldier wouldn't just attend National Service; he'd have been at the recruiter trying to get somewhere in the military (not just doing the bare minimum).
 

Stryker001

Banned Member
?

An invasion?

WTF are you smoking brother? Who is going to conduct this invasion and for why?

Next you'll be telling us that civilians need guns so we can defend Oz with an insurgency and that we need tin foil hats to prevent radio waves from brainwashing us...

The thread is about issues with Australian recruiting. There have been a few "what if" invasion of Australia threads in the past if you care to look for them.

AD
of course your not my brother and references in relation to narcotic use is unwarranted.

No I don’t think everybody should be armed AD.


Who knows what the future holds in relation to invasion, I guess that’s why there is an ADF.

Hypothetically, one would just give the Chinese and Russians 10% each or the US 20% of Australian uranium reserves to secure international support and weaponry and toys one needs.:)

ASIO in the ADF?
 

StingrayOZ

Super Moderator
Staff member
The key goal is to become a significant and sustainable independant power. For this ~60,000-70,000 personel is all we really need. To play an important role in the region, securing, protecting, aiding.

Australia cannot stop an invasion single handedly. All countries, even the US need form allies to protect themselves. But Australia should have a force that is capable of operating with minimal or no US support in a wide range of enviroments in the region. To do this the ADF needs a airforce, navy, army that offers the full spectrum of capabilities not just niche capabilities designed to only work with a much larger power. Certainly we can have great expertise in certain areas, but you need to be more than that.

Australia's defence recruitment problem won't go away by itself. Employment is changing, as are employees and the economy. Even when unemployment is high again, you will find the ADF will still struggle with numbers. It seems few realise this. They will be able to recruit some certain roles, always. But other equally important ones they will never fill and this will undermind the entire ADF.

What does the ADF offer recruits over other opportunities?
Money? Training? Personal development? Order? Routine? Excitement? Career? Travel? Flexibility? What sort of recruits are they after? What strategies do you have to attract each type of recruit?
What is the current force age and retention rate and have you planned to deal with these?

Getting a fighter pilot is a whole different problem to getting a plumber or a mechanic.

What are the downsides of working with the ADF? Slow progression. Forced relocations. Dangerous. Lack of family contact. Many meanial jobs. ADF requirements (and this is a lot more than haircuts and drugs). No career prospects for many women.

The ADF really needs a big overhaul to ensure it can meets its goals now and in the future. How can the downsides be mitigated and the strengths improved? This does not mean it will cost more, many improvements can be easily made that are cost neutral or near cost neutral.

I think flexability is one area the ADF could certainly improve with absolutely minimal cost and could make a very attractive benift for people looking at the ADF.

Do people understand the ADF enough? Modern Australians usually have little to do with the ADF and have many incorrect ideas about what they do.
 

Tasman

Ship Watcher
Verified Defense Pro
What are the downsides of working with the ADF? Slow progression. Forced relocations. Dangerous. Lack of family contact. Many meanial jobs. ADF requirements (and this is a lot more than haircuts and drugs). No career prospects for many women.
Re career prospects for women this is an area that seems to me to be improving dramatically in recent years. The RAAF has at least one frontline Squadron CO (36 Sqdn which operates the C-17) and a recent report on the visit to China by HMAS Perth and HMAS Parramatta mentioned that the CO of HMAS Perth is a woman. As there are very few jobs in the ADF now closed to women I expect that this trend will continue.

Tas
 
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lobbie111

New Member
The crisis is not because or only partly to blame to the entry and allowances that the army has set. The problem is based on the fact that most Australians would rather go to uni and after their four years or so get out with a job offer for 70k+ with very very flexible working conditions.

This is why the gap year will be is a good idea, if you get people invovled straight away put them on some cool stuff, you'll have a few dropouts as they don't like it but you will get the dedicated ones that will remain. Plus I see an opportunity to get the ones that are not going to go on into the military to get them straight to the reserves.

As for women in the army, who cares, whats the big deal? Oh and can someone provide me with the reasons for the ADF not putting women in combat roles...(before they changed their minds)

Although I am for women in the army in that I can understand the reasons why they were not allowed as of a couple of years ago but I can accept that they will be valuable members of the ADF.

Just my 2c
 

icelord

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Re career prospects for women this is an area that seems to me to be improving dramatically in recent years. The RAAF has at least one frontline Squadron CO (37 Sqdn which operates the C-17) and a recent report on the visit to China by HMAS Perth and HMAS Parramatta mentioned that the CO of HMAS Perth is a woman. As there are very few jobs in the ADF now closed to women I expect that this trend will continue.

Tas
The CO of Perth is a woman and was the i believe to be the first woman to be the First commanding officer of a New ship, as shes been there since day one for the Perth.
XO of LPA is Female, as are a few women in the navy XO or CO on ships, so there are a some out there in different tasks,just not a large proportion atm. Head of Navy Meds was female(may still be,unsure at present) and there is a female General who got promoted recently and is the highest ranked women in the ADF(same one who left the Kovco CD at the airport terminal)
First C-17 was flown to Australia by a Female pilot.
 

StingrayOZ

Super Moderator
Staff member
I think this is an area where the Navy is streets ahead of anyone else, almost world wide. Females are allowed to perform most duties and are readily promoted to do so. I would imagine the Airforce is simular.

Army I think have it tougher. They haven't made as much progress.
 

tomahawk6

New Member
The ADF would be smart reinstating conscription for the Army. Indonesia is a threat to Australia and a large pool of trained soldiers would be a real deterrant. I would man up a couple of armored brigades and 2 divisions with 18 infantry battalions, the rest of the conscripts after training would go into a greatly expanded TA. Australia is having alot of recruitment success in luring NCO's/soldiers from the British Army and this will help to provide more NCO's for a larger Army.
 

old faithful

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
I dont think conscription is needed mate! There is no threat from indonesia (directly). terrorism is a much bigger threat to us.
The aust Army has a pretty high turnover rate. There are already thousands of troops that have left the armed forces over the last 10 years. these men and women would need very little re-training.
2 divs with 18 btns....where did you find the need for that figure...how about 3 divs with 27 bns and a spec war brigade with 3 bns...and 75 super hornets and 50 jsf...or how about 1 div with 9 inf bns, 1 SAS regt and a Cdo bn? the last option is where i see us going at best case.
conscription will not happen.

At presant the Indo,s have about 10 F16 A/B about 8 F5E,s 6 SU27/30,s with another 12 coming over the next 10 yrs. their navy cant compete with ours,the only thing they have is a fairly ordinary army with big numbers of men and a logistics system that in NO way could sustain a large force off shore. In all reality, the INDO,s do not have a force capable of invadeing Australia. the only northern part of Australia that would be possible to take is Darwin. we are in monsoon season now and roads will be closed for the next 6 months. the top end of aust is a very isolated place. Think of the NT as a state the size of...im not sure in miles, but i know the UK would fit inside the NT about 4 times. The NT has a population of appox 210,00. most of the coast is swamp,no real roads. there are 2 hwys.one going south, and one going west. Very easy to defend that. the rest is desert.

the other point about aust isolation. The cost of invadeing Aust, in relative terms, based on 3 to 1 ratio of army alone, is the entire cost of the falklands war....PER DAY!!! third world economies may struggle with that!

No need for conscription...
 

Tasman

Ship Watcher
Verified Defense Pro
The ADF would be smart reinstating conscription for the Army. Indonesia is a threat to Australia and a large pool of trained soldiers would be a real deterrant. I would man up a couple of armored brigades and 2 divisions with 18 infantry battalions, the rest of the conscripts after training would go into a greatly expanded TA. Australia is having alot of recruitment success in luring NCO's/soldiers from the British Army and this will help to provide more NCO's for a larger Army.
Firstly, I agree with everything Old Faithful has said so I won't repeat that.

Another reason that conscription won't be introduced, short of actual invasion or a 'very' direct threat of invasion, is that no government would risk political annihilation by introducing it. The idea of conscription is strongly opposed by the vast majority of the Australian population and by the ADF itself.

Tas
 

StingrayOZ

Super Moderator
Staff member
Australia doesn't need conscription in peace time. As a whole Australia can mobilise very quickly if required, even for an unpopular war, fought far away. These conscripts proved high quality is possible with conscripted personel.

However to do so when Australia is not directly threatend would be political death.

Australia needs to boost its peace time numbers. Even in peace time Australia deploys its troops almost continously throughout the world, East Timor, Iraq, Afgahnistan, and a mattering of troops else where including Malaysia, Egypt, solomons and throughout the middle east and africa.

Operation of the units it wants and needs to have requires more personel. It is the 12th best funded defence force in the world. It is also planning a major upgrade of its forces and this will require more personel that it currently has.

An area I would like to see the ADF develop is more recruiting around schools and universities. Perhaps an expansion of the 1 year gap program, with more benifits. Even simply explaining what the program is all about would be useful.

While some would sign up and complete the year and move on, many I would imagine could easily join as reservists, from that inital pool there would be a strong number of high quality capable candidates that would join the ADF who otherwise wouldn't.
 

Tasman

Ship Watcher
Verified Defense Pro
An area I would like to see the ADF develop is more recruiting around schools and universities. Perhaps an expansion of the 1 year gap program, with more benifits. Even simply explaining what the program is all about would be useful.

While some would sign up and complete the year and move on, many I would imagine could easily join as reservists, from that inital pool there would be a strong number of high quality capable candidates that would join the ADF who otherwise wouldn't.
IMO, it is a pity that the GAP program doesn't require some reserve service at the end as this would see a much better return to the ADF for the time and effort spent training recruits during the GAP year. At the very least I believe that there should be attractive incentives offered for 3 or more years of post GAP service in the reserves.

Tas
 

old faithful

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
IMO, it is a pity that the GAP program doesn't require some reserve service at the end as this would see a much better return to the ADF for the time and effort spent training recruits during the GAP year. At the very least I believe that there should be attractive incentives offered for 3 or more years of post GAP service in the reserves.

Tas
Couldnt agree more Tas,the gap program at the moment is a waste of time , money and resourses...a 3 year reserve commitment at the least should be added to get some value out of the 1 year training, because a soldier is still very much a "beginner" after a year in the service. 6 months of that year is training, 6 months in a battalion...very hard to progress and maintain a high standard of soldier when hes already looking at discharge after only a few months real service...
 

McTaff

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
Couldnt agree more Tas,the gap program at the moment is a waste of time , money and resourses...a 3 year reserve commitment at the least should be added to get some value out of the 1 year training, because a soldier is still very much a "beginner" after a year in the service. 6 months of that year is training, 6 months in a battalion...very hard to progress and maintain a high standard of soldier when hes already looking at discharge after only a few months real service...
My biggest beef is that they never get a taste of what it is like to not be the rookie. Being at the bottom of the food chain is pretty rugged; getting out of that after a year or two is what makes it all the sweeter.

However, the problem is that if you start slapping restrictions on it and adding time and commitments, you'll scare off potential recruits. Double-edged sword.
 

t68

Well-Known Member
My biggest beef is that they never get a taste of what it is like to not be the rookie. Being at the bottom of the food chain is pretty rugged; getting out of that after a year or two is what makes it all the sweeter.

However, the problem is that if you start slapping restrictions on it and adding time and commitments, you'll scare off potential recruits. Double-edged sword.

Hi Guys


I am not sure of the exact requirements when your time is up, if they want to stay on and join up fulltime maybe they can have an open end enlistment.

Do they still have a certain time in the ADF when you join fulltime e.g. 4/6 year enlistment?
Of course you would have to expect a return of service obligation if you where to go in a specialized area such a pilot or doctor etc
But really the scheme is a try before you buy type set up and see if you like it, but then most people join the reserves to that

Also I think they have to look at the overall condition of service e.g. pay and superannuation , maybe they should go back to the old way when you have done your twenty you can retire and have a pension tax free and still have a normal job ,and give them more bonus if they transfer to the reserves .

They really have to compete more with the private sector in the pay area, when you look at it why join up and be on call 24/7 for the same money week in week out when Joe blow from the street is probably earning there weekly pay in a weekend, but then again its not a job its an adventure…….


Regards,
Tom
 
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