India's MBT: Arjun and its standing among Tanks
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For a laser homing missile there might be other ways of achieving the desired results, however developments towards the auto tracking system show an obvious advantages have been noticed.
I have never read of a Tank kill at the extreme ranges the missiles advertise (are you aware of an example),
and the Shoot while move seems more of a function of the speed at which the tank moves, again things that have been claimed by the DRDO, and we can only take them or leave them till someone who has actually done it comes and talks.
There have been various claims which cant be denied or accepted till someone involved comes out and says so, the very high accuracy, some thing about some point blank range shot from some tank etc. etc.
The process of constant technology input into a single design is better than changing the design specifications every 4 years. I think it is easier to do the required trouble shooting this way.
As for the future developments, well it will only happen if there is will to do it. The problem was fielding The tank in time through resolving the problems at hand, instead of complicating the tank by adding more technology, The process of indigenous production that is over 70-80% is being addressed (refer to the links above) and now is the time to keep working towards indigenous platforms.
The T-90 is a very effective tank It seems to fit the projected requirements of the Indian Army(that is why 1000~1500 of them will be fielded by the Army) which is more important than how good the tank is and which should be the reason for funding indigenous projects as it is easier to make them like you want them.
As for the comparisons they have been run too many times to be run again.
I have never read of a Tank kill at the extreme ranges the missiles advertise (are you aware of an example),
and the Shoot while move seems more of a function of the speed at which the tank moves, again things that have been claimed by the DRDO, and we can only take them or leave them till someone who has actually done it comes and talks.
There have been various claims which cant be denied or accepted till someone involved comes out and says so, the very high accuracy, some thing about some point blank range shot from some tank etc. etc.
The process of constant technology input into a single design is better than changing the design specifications every 4 years. I think it is easier to do the required trouble shooting this way.
As for the future developments, well it will only happen if there is will to do it. The problem was fielding The tank in time through resolving the problems at hand, instead of complicating the tank by adding more technology, The process of indigenous production that is over 70-80% is being addressed (refer to the links above) and now is the time to keep working towards indigenous platforms.
The T-90 is a very effective tank It seems to fit the projected requirements of the Indian Army(that is why 1000~1500 of them will be fielded by the Army) which is more important than how good the tank is and which should be the reason for funding indigenous projects as it is easier to make them like you want them.
As for the comparisons they have been run too many times to be run again.
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I never heard of true combat tank-to-tank kill with T64/T-80/T-90 ATGM's. But it is more attributed to the fact what these tanks was never used in anti-tank combat. It is routine training exercise in USSR / Russian army to achieve hit at 4+ km range with ATGM's, and such shots are regulary demonstrated on various international competitions and excibitions. I cant think of any reason why it should be exceptionally difficult.
As i said many times - Arjun is certainly capable to be main MBT in Indian army, and could even completely replace all tanks including T-90. The questions however is economical and political (security) viabilty. I feel Arjun is much more expencive than T-90, and have large part of imported critical components from less reliable (for India) countries like Germany.
Yes, however what i fail to see is that if ATGM fired from a tank are effective in achieving tank kills as effectively as other ammunition. it might be better to have a dedicated platform with missiles that can be homed in towards the last stages of their flight. Anti personnel rounds can also be developed, may be that is where the water will flow.
Right now Arjun is way too expensive that is why i presented the link with the parliamentary report.
The T-90 has already been ordered at 1000~1500 nos. it will stay for another 30-40 years for good and the numbers might go up to 2000~2500 if the army decides it wants a single platform, with the Arjun(what ever version) eventually replacing the T-72 in 1000~1500 nos.
It is better left to the Army, after all they have to come up with the requirements, these requirements (i think) show the operational doctrine they intend to follow, if the doctrine is flawed then no tank on earth can save the Army.
The Army should also fund a movement in the Indigenous tank development by acquiring 500~700 Arjuns minimum and pushing a continuous development process, so that by the time new tanks are needed there is a capability with in India to meet the requirements of the Army in a effective manner.
Right now Arjun is way too expensive that is why i presented the link with the parliamentary report.
If the tank is acquired in large numbers the per-head cost might come down but the added cost of maintainance, training, associated equipment will still make it far more expensive than a T-90 which is a direct development of the previous tanks that Indian Army has fielded.
The T-90 has already been ordered at 1000~1500 nos. it will stay for another 30-40 years for good and the numbers might go up to 2000~2500 if the army decides it wants a single platform, with the Arjun(what ever version) eventually replacing the T-72 in 1000~1500 nos.
It is better left to the Army, after all they have to come up with the requirements, these requirements (i think) show the operational doctrine they intend to follow, if the doctrine is flawed then no tank on earth can save the Army.
The Army should also fund a movement in the Indigenous tank development by acquiring 500~700 Arjuns minimum and pushing a continuous development process, so that by the time new tanks are needed there is a capability with in India to meet the requirements of the Army in a effective manner.
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At ranges 2+ km ATGM's are certainly more effective. Even very modern FCS have big problems hitting moving targets at such distance with APFSDS round. Hell, they have problems hitting even stationary targets at 3+ km distance. Note, i dont say it is completely impossible - just what PK chance is low. With ATGM PK chance is close to 100% as long as you can maintain sight on target, and that is up to 5 km, with simple upgrade potencial up to 7-8 km.
Missile have however big disadvantage - long flight time. But at such range it is acceptable.
BTW, there is dedicated missile platform in RUA (Khrizantema). It is even accepted in service recently. There is also platform in developing - will be equiped with "Hermes" missile.
Anti-personell missile rounds are not needed, as they 1st rarery require such exact aiming, and 2nd generaly isnt fired against moving targets. Anti-personell shells are enouth in that case.
As i see, future upgrade of T-90 ATGM will most likely remove main drawbacks of current missile - the need of constant illumination and add top-attack mode. Missile will become FOF.
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:unknown
Does that German engine costs 2 million dollars (8crore Rs.), if it does, it better have b**bs.
The 17.5 crore or 4.375 million US dollar cost is after the imported content, it can be brought down further if a 1000 tank order is placed as then most of the components will be manufactured domestically with ToT (as given in the report to the Parliament above).
No the joint development partner has to be identified and the development has to start, i think the whole process will be really followed with more enthusiasm.
If the following report is true, it seems the engine will also power rest of the T-90 tanks that will follow, hence more suited to the local conditions, let us see if the joint venture is with a domestic or international partner.
http://www.defensenews.com/story.php?F=3149561
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I heard new German 1500 PS engine cost 1.6 millions $ and it is more or less equivalent to 8 crore. This is apprently main reason why noone in hurry to install it.
indian bull
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The production of Main Battle Tank Arjun has commenced at Heavy Vehicle Factory (HVF) — Avadi, Chennai. Army has placed an indent for manufacture of 124 Tanks at a cost of Rs. 1760 crore. As on 31st March 2007, HVF has made an expenditure of Rs. 1270.82 crore against this indent.
An indent for manufacture of 124 Tanks has been placed on Ordnance Factory Board (OFB) in March 2000. Five Tanks have already been handed over to Army in 2005 and nine more Tanks are ready for delivery. The remaining quantity is expected to be delivered by 2009.
All issues related to production of MBT Arjun have been resolved and the production is getting stabilized. At present there is no such proposal to take cooperation of private sector as a joint venture. However, private sector is involved in the project as supplier of various components/assemblies.
Arjun MBT’s Hydro Pneumatic Suspension system provides a stable weapon platform which enhances the fire on move capability and excellent riding comfort during cross country move. The Indian borders in north and west are very rugged. Arjun MBT has less Nominal Ground Pressure (NGP) compared to T-90S. Arjun MBT has better acceleration and maximum road speed due to high peak torque output of the engine coupled with fully automatic transmission not withstanding “slightly” lower power to weight ratio. Automatic transmission provides neutral turn capability which adds to the maneuverability during shoot and scoot. Arjun MBT features Auxiliary Power Units (APU) which T-90S does not have. APU’s provide continuous operation in silent watch mode. It also saves main engine life. Rubberized double pin tracks provide increased life, reduced track noise and better maintainability. Arjun MBT’s mission reliability has been proved with 500 kms being covered in 48 hours. Arjun MBT successfully crossed the RAVI River at Lassian without support systems due to lower ground pressure. Trench crossing capability of Arjun MBT is on par with T-90S as Arjun MBT has seven bogie stations compared to six bogie stations of T-90S.
Firing performance of Arjun MBT is superior to T-90S in terms of accuracy (both static and dynamic situations) due to gun ammunition combination and high order of weapon stabilization coupled with auto collimated MRS. Auto collimated MRS compensates for the barrel bend. Firing performance of Arjun MBT and T-90S is same in terms of defeat capability and rate of firing. Two axis stabilized commander’s panoramic sight integrated with gunners main sight provides “hunter killer” capability both in static as dynamic mode (moving to moving mode). Higher order of stabilization accuracy enables accurate fire on the move at a moving target while maintaining the stipulated fire rate. The commander of Arjun MBT can engage targets in case of emergency, capable of firing at various slopes and tilt angles. First round hits probability has been demonstrated for MBT Arjun on a 1 mil target and greater than 60% hit percentage when firing from a moving Arjun tank to a moving target, both at 25 km/h.
LAHAT (semi automatic homing) Missile firing from Arjun MBT has been already demonstrated using a stand alone Laser Target Designator (LTD). This designator can be integrated into Gunner’s Main Sight (GMS). T-90S can fire Laser bean riding missile..
Arjun MBT armament system including gun barrel has been proved to be robust and reliable No case of barrel burst was reported even after firing 10000 rounds. The Arjun MBT prototypes and pre production tanks fired more than 100 rounds from the same barrel in a day. Life of barrel of Arjun MBT is twice that of T-90S, estimate equivalent in Effective Full Charge (EFC) of 500.
An indent for manufacture of 124 Tanks has been placed on Ordnance Factory Board (OFB) in March 2000. Five Tanks have already been handed over to Army in 2005 and nine more Tanks are ready for delivery. The remaining quantity is expected to be delivered by 2009.
All issues related to production of MBT Arjun have been resolved and the production is getting stabilized. At present there is no such proposal to take cooperation of private sector as a joint venture. However, private sector is involved in the project as supplier of various components/assemblies.
Arjun MBT’s Hydro Pneumatic Suspension system provides a stable weapon platform which enhances the fire on move capability and excellent riding comfort during cross country move. The Indian borders in north and west are very rugged. Arjun MBT has less Nominal Ground Pressure (NGP) compared to T-90S. Arjun MBT has better acceleration and maximum road speed due to high peak torque output of the engine coupled with fully automatic transmission not withstanding “slightly” lower power to weight ratio. Automatic transmission provides neutral turn capability which adds to the maneuverability during shoot and scoot. Arjun MBT features Auxiliary Power Units (APU) which T-90S does not have. APU’s provide continuous operation in silent watch mode. It also saves main engine life. Rubberized double pin tracks provide increased life, reduced track noise and better maintainability. Arjun MBT’s mission reliability has been proved with 500 kms being covered in 48 hours. Arjun MBT successfully crossed the RAVI River at Lassian without support systems due to lower ground pressure. Trench crossing capability of Arjun MBT is on par with T-90S as Arjun MBT has seven bogie stations compared to six bogie stations of T-90S.
Firing performance of Arjun MBT is superior to T-90S in terms of accuracy (both static and dynamic situations) due to gun ammunition combination and high order of weapon stabilization coupled with auto collimated MRS. Auto collimated MRS compensates for the barrel bend. Firing performance of Arjun MBT and T-90S is same in terms of defeat capability and rate of firing. Two axis stabilized commander’s panoramic sight integrated with gunners main sight provides “hunter killer” capability both in static as dynamic mode (moving to moving mode). Higher order of stabilization accuracy enables accurate fire on the move at a moving target while maintaining the stipulated fire rate. The commander of Arjun MBT can engage targets in case of emergency, capable of firing at various slopes and tilt angles. First round hits probability has been demonstrated for MBT Arjun on a 1 mil target and greater than 60% hit percentage when firing from a moving Arjun tank to a moving target, both at 25 km/h.
LAHAT (semi automatic homing) Missile firing from Arjun MBT has been already demonstrated using a stand alone Laser Target Designator (LTD). This designator can be integrated into Gunner’s Main Sight (GMS). T-90S can fire Laser bean riding missile..
Arjun MBT armament system including gun barrel has been proved to be robust and reliable No case of barrel burst was reported even after firing 10000 rounds. The Arjun MBT prototypes and pre production tanks fired more than 100 rounds from the same barrel in a day. Life of barrel of Arjun MBT is twice that of T-90S, estimate equivalent in Effective Full Charge (EFC) of 500.
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1atest news---arjun sti11 kicking
the army wi11 put the arjun mbt through rigourous tria1s in order to see the sparepart requirements and operationa1 1ife of the subcomponents
if they are satisfied with the qua1ity then there might be another order of uptu 24o arjun tanks
they news says tht the army has kept an open mind about inducting 124 more arjuns even as it has purchased another 3oo or so t9os
the drdo has its fingers crossed as the arjun is put tu test once again
i read it in the news paper so i cant post any 1inks tu prove it
11 th december 2oo7
the army wi11 put the arjun mbt through rigourous tria1s in order to see the sparepart requirements and operationa1 1ife of the subcomponents
if they are satisfied with the qua1ity then there might be another order of uptu 24o arjun tanks
they news says tht the army has kept an open mind about inducting 124 more arjuns even as it has purchased another 3oo or so t9os
the drdo has its fingers crossed as the arjun is put tu test once again
i read it in the news paper so i cant post any 1inks tu prove it
11 th december 2oo7
http://www.dnaindia.com/report.asp?newsid=1138504
This is the Final trap the Army will lay for Arjun MBT
. Delay it forever, if the DRDO has managed to manufacture a perfect MBT with out fielding the tank
nfloorl: then they have a nice chance of forcing the army to drag this tank into service.so 1000+310+347=1657 T-90 tanks,
I think the army wants a 3000 MBT force, right?
How many T-72 (upgraded) will be utilized? So that we know what is the actual scope of Arjun MBT induction, i mean to justify all the new infrastructure the Army might need at least a 1000 tank count.
So that means the first 124 Arjuns will be delivered and put into service no matter what, even if it will utterly fail in this test?
"268 T72M1 are upgraded by the Heavy vehicles factory (HVF). While requests for proposal for upgrading approximately 1000 other T-72's have been sent to various firms in Israel, Russia, Poland and France."
But well, it's Wikipedia.
Wikipedia says:
"268 T72M1 are upgraded by the Heavy vehicles factory (HVF). While requests for proposal for upgrading approximately 1000 other T-72's have been sent to various firms in Israel, Russia, Poland and France."
But well, it's Wikipedia.
Yups the order is already placed for the 124 arjuns (interesting this whole 123, 124, 126 thing that is going on). It can be delayed however
only thing i can find is
If that still stands the potential might be of 600-700 Arjuns MBT, if they make it to the final induction clearance.
only thing i can find is
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/articleshow/4540559.cms
If that still stands the potential might be of 600-700 Arjuns MBT, if they make it to the final induction clearance.
I thought that the Indian Army was impressed with the Arjun after additional testing last year, why would they not want more Arjuns. Funtz I suspect that you are one of the people thumbing their nose with the Arjun project and it doesn`t matter how good that it will perform, you will also give it a thumbs down. If I am wrong saying that then I stand corrected.
meh!!!! Doesnot matter what i think or say.
The Arjun can fly the skies, swim the high seas and tunnel its way to the pacific for all the army cares, it seems they have long made the decision.
T-90, yes please can i have another.
1637 already, and these trails (only lord knows what they will take as a criteria/scale to judge it with) can mean some more issues like maintainability etc. etc. and more T-90 can come through.
DRDO missed the comparative trial opportunity, they must have been waiting for that, however the army canceled it.
The next project (i dunno some report online claimed) sounds some thing like the T-90.
By the time the army gets the 124 Arjuns after the trails they might just be very fine indeed, i mean almost all issues would have been resolved before the actual field service.nfloorl:
No matter what happens till they accept below par 1st generation products the military might keep on crying about hens and baskets and what not.
A 124-250 batch of Arjun MBT should have been forcefully inducted a long time ago, and the issues resolved as they went along by the time the army was confident for a bigger batch they would have had a working doctrine the infrastructure etc. ready.
I mean every other time some news about Russian LGB not working, Klubs not hitting target etc. etc. makes me wonder what is going on around here.
The Arjun can fly the skies, swim the high seas and tunnel its way to the pacific for all the army cares, it seems they have long made the decision.
T-90, yes please can i have another.
1637 already, and these trails (only lord knows what they will take as a criteria/scale to judge it with) can mean some more issues like maintainability etc. etc. and more T-90 can come through.
DRDO missed the comparative trial opportunity, they must have been waiting for that, however the army canceled it.
The next project (i dunno some report online claimed) sounds some thing like the T-90.
http://www.defensenews.com/story.php?F=3196879&C=asiapac
By the time the army gets the 124 Arjuns after the trails they might just be very fine indeed, i mean almost all issues would have been resolved before the actual field service.
nfloorl:No matter what happens till they accept below par 1st generation products the military might keep on crying about hens and baskets and what not.
A 124-250 batch of Arjun MBT should have been forcefully inducted a long time ago, and the issues resolved as they went along by the time the army was confident for a bigger batch they would have had a working doctrine the infrastructure etc. ready.
I mean every other time some news about Russian LGB not working, Klubs not hitting target etc. etc. makes me wonder what is going on around here.
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just a bit of correction about the T-72 m1 upgrade programme (project rhino), only the fcs is imported from polish twardys and the tanks are being upgraded in house .
the armour is ERA tht had been developed during the arjun mbt project and the DRDO ppl claim it to be as good as the russian contact 5 armour on the t-90s .
there is also the ammunintion upgrade that has done for the c.i.ajeya. tht means tht the ammunition is not so unstable and explosive as the original t-72 ammo , also the size of the charge behind the projectile is more and the composition is slightly different which provides more penetration than standard ammo. this is the result of decades of research and development by DRDO and cooperating russian firm.
the engine as every 1 knows in 1000 hp which has been developed inhouse.
the tanks are not being shipped out to foreign firms the whole upgradation is being done inhouse , tht 1 of the reasons why it is taking sooooooo long.
the armour is ERA tht had been developed during the arjun mbt project and the DRDO ppl claim it to be as good as the russian contact 5 armour on the t-90s .
there is also the ammunintion upgrade that has done for the c.i.ajeya. tht means tht the ammunition is not so unstable and explosive as the original t-72 ammo , also the size of the charge behind the projectile is more and the composition is slightly different which provides more penetration than standard ammo. this is the result of decades of research and development by DRDO and cooperating russian firm.
the engine as every 1 knows in 1000 hp which has been developed inhouse.
the tanks are not being shipped out to foreign firms the whole upgradation is being done inhouse , tht 1 of the reasons why it is taking sooooooo long.
arjun mk2 ????
hey i read the post about the futuristic 40 ton mbt too and to me it sounds a bit fishy.
the arjun mk2 is already being worked on and as far as im concerned it is progressing well. it will have marked improvements over the arjun mbt which itself has matured into a good ; dare i say a world classmbt?
now why would they want to abandon such a project which has taken years of reasearch and that has taught soo much to the indian tank building industry and start pursuing a completely new tank design( based on the russian mbt) which many experts consider inferior to the western style mbt.
anyway can any1 shed some more light onto this matter
?????
hey i read the post about the futuristic 40 ton mbt too and to me it sounds a bit fishy.
the arjun mk2 is already being worked on and as far as im concerned it is progressing well. it will have marked improvements over the arjun mbt which itself has matured into a good ; dare i say a world classmbt?
now why would they want to abandon such a project which has taken years of reasearch and that has taught soo much to the indian tank building industry and start pursuing a completely new tank design( based on the russian mbt) which many experts consider inferior to the western style mbt.
anyway can any1 shed some more light onto this matter
?????
New design cant be based on russian MBT. More likely it is based on USA FCS concept.
im not soo sure about tht.
the indian armoured corps is way less advanced than tht.i mean there isnt even any battle management system on the tanks and the joint command still has problems in acting as an intregrated fighting force. this is being worked on but i still think it is still too early for indian army to mature to the FCS level.
i think the new tank may be an intermediate between the current medium weight tanks and the FCS, somthing like a much more advanced version of the T-90.
the current modernizaton of the indian army i.e the purchase of attack helicopters ,purchase of artillery units and modernization of ground personnels and armoured units and the sretting up of joint command would put the army on par with other modern armies of the world ..........but the FCS is 1 step ahead i believe
Yes, yes. Thats why India try to build LCA/MCA a-like F-22 (AESA, stealth, etc). I mean, such ambitions without ANY succesfull indegenious combat aircraft project... What make you think India will do differently in tank area, especially WITH (relative) succesfull Arjun project behind?
40-45t Vehicle cant be anything but FCS. Even upgraded T-90 gets close to 50t.
The other alternative is future russian projects with unmanned turret, etc. But this would be possible only when cooperating with Russia and it have nothing common with T-90 anyway.
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