The Indian Tejas

[ejaz007]

I have one question. As far as I know (source mentioned below) estimated R&D cost of Tejas is around USD 700 million. Incase IAF inducts around 200 Tejas then unit cost come around 25-30 million USD a piece. Isn’t this cost bit higher and if the fighter is going to be fully operational by say around 2010 then this cost is sure to increase.
I also found this link
http://www.f-16.net/f-16_forum_viewtopic-t-2206.html
Any comments

 

[funtz]

I have one question. As far as I know (source mentioned below) estimated R&D cost of Tejas is around USD 700 million. Incase IAF inducts around 200 Tejas then unit cost come around 25-30 million USD a piece. Isn’t this cost bit higher and if the fighter is going to be fully operational by say around 2010 then this cost is sure to increase.
I also found this link
http://www.f-16.net/f-16_forum_viewtopic-t-2206.html
Any comments

There was a recent reply by wp2000 on the IAF section, it seems that the project requirement for AF is 220 aircrafts,

Right now the cost is 33,771,250 US dollars.

The over all cost has been about 1,609,750,000 US dollars. For both the Tejas for AF and Navy.

All of this without counting the money required for the Multi Mode Radar and the Kaveri engine.

all the details from this parliamentary report.
http://www.defencetalk.com/forums/e...0.24.208/ls/CommitteeR/Defence/17threport.pdf

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/MONITOR/ISSUE3-5/sainis.html

A large portion of the investment so far has gone into development of a base of research and academic institutions vital to foster a sustained presence in this in this field.

 

[indian bull]

hey funtz u always reply to my queries thanks a lot man. Now tell me about MCA i read it will be a 5th gen double engine heavy aircraft. Its development will indepent to fgfa with russia. It will give a real punch to iaf. At which developmental stage it is ? will the experience gained in developing tejas give a boost to this programme? I think it iwill be a very ambitious project.

 

[funtz]

hey funtz u always reply to my queries thanks a lot man. Now tell me about MCA i read it will be a 5th gen double engine heavy aircraft. Its development will indepent to fgfa with russia. It will give a real punch to iaf. At which developmental stage it is ? will the experience gained in developing tejas give a boost to this programme? I think it iwill be a very ambitious project.

Well bro can not help it till I start working again so till December you are welcomed to my highly uninformed, unoriginal, grade A civilian opinions and requested to share your opinions with me.

There was some posts on the Indian air force section, the LCA Tejas project was a good start, there are active work centers in India now, the details are on the ADA website
www.ada.gov.in

So yes the Tejas experience has given a boost to the local industry, if only the private sector gets more involved will it become a profit driven modern industry.

The real and immediate advantages of this will be the involvement in the FGFA or the PAK-FA project, as there will be the ability of making real contributions in that project, as opposed to just falling into the money pit.

The implications of Tejas project on the evolution of the Tejas project ( seems like it from the artists interpretations which are not reliable by the way and the odd comments which are hard to find) will be there, however when the current strength will easily last till the next 20 years and by that time the FGFA will be available, which might be developed in many versions to capture the market and to provide different capabilities, so if different versions of FGFA are available (like the F 35), it will not be money minded to continue with a full scale project just for the heck of it.

However I am all for technology demonstrators and a MCA evolution of the LCA which incorporates VLO/LO features, a better indigenous thrust vectoring engine, ability to supercruise, a ASEA radar should be funded to the limit that the economy will allow even if there is no need for it.

So yes I think the Tejas project should help the future evolution of the Indian combat aircrafts, just because of the experience gained and should not be allowed to stop after the LCA matures (might be by 2015-2016) even if some of the resources are tied up with the indo russian FGFA/PAK-FA project.
Having said all of the above, i am sure many people more capable of military/stategic thought than me are involved with the project and will make the right decisions

 

[niteshkjain]

Yaar Funtz in which stage this PAK FA is? Is it still on the drawing board or some development is started? Has the specifications has been freezed? What is the time frame expected for it to become operational?

Well it seems I asked too much.

 

[suryaaa]

Yaar Funtz in which stage this PAK FA is? Is it still on the drawing board or some development is started? Has the specifications has been freezed? What is the time frame expected for it to become operational?

Well it seems I asked too much.

Well bro i dont think that this is the thread to discuss pak-fa anyway for your info:

1)Russian had already started working on it.They offerd us a chance to work with them.Publicly india havent anounced its participation,but in a few months they will sign the pact.

2)Most of the assumptions where that india has secretly participated in this project,degree of participation will unearth when they sign the projet.If these assumptions where true pak-fa will fly in less than 5-6 years,ie u can expect it around 2015.

 

[niteshkjain]

Well sorry, no intention of startting a discussion on PAK FA. But the specifications of this project will heavily affect the specifications of indian MCA (like engines, weapons capacity, type of weapons) and to some extent LCA also (This is my view). India and russia has already signed the agreement and Indian Airforce has to give there requirement for the project (I cant post the link as my posts are less than 15). So the deadline of 2015 seems a little too ambitious to me. Comments please.

 

[funtz]

Well sorry, no intention of startting a discussion on PAK FA. But the specifications of this project will heavily affect the specifications of indian MCA (like engines, weapons capacity, type of weapons) and to some extent LCA also (This is my view). India and russia has already signed the agreement and Indian Airforce has to give there requirement for the project (I cant post the link as my posts are less than 15). So the deadline of 2015 seems a little too ambitious to me. Comments please.

hey man express your views on the Indian air force thread, i have expressed some opinions there would like to get your views on them.

 

[funtz]

Kaveri Marine Gas Turbine is a derivative of Aero version of Kaveri Engine
Error 404 - Performance Not Found
Written on August 15, 2007 – 10:28 am | by FIDSNS | The Arakkonam tests validated LCA Tejas performance over sea level. The airframe and all other parameters were verified. Like all any other engine, GE F 404-IN20, which is the interim solution, could not sustain its normal thrust, as with case of all engines which are not made for Indian conditions.

This seems very inaccurate considering the information from NAL, HAL, DRDO and GE.

The news reports never mentioned F404 IN 20 version, it seemed to have been a specific developement for the LSP-1 and not the test beds.

here this is from the official GE information for the GE FE04IN20

This is the solution for HAL Tejas by GE, new engine modified by GE for the production variants of HAL Tejas, modified for Indian conditions

I think the engine was F404-GE-F2J3, which was installed on the PV's.

The continuous development program and work on new engines will continue at GTRE, however the LSP and the first 40 HAL tejas will fly with the 404IN20, which has been cleared already,

The deal with Snecma or NPO Saturn is being worked out so that by the first 40 airframes the issues with kaveri are resolved.

All of the necessary links have been provided in several other posts.

 

[Mercurius]

The recent R-73 launch from the Tejas was obviously a significant milestone for the Indian programme, but we need to keep a sense of perspective. This was essentially a separation firing – there was no attempt to engage a target. More firings will be needed to demonstrates full integration of the missile and to clear the combination for operational use.

Integrating the Astra or any other kind of radar-guided air-to-air missile (AIM) will be a more severe technical challenge. According to MBDA, integrating a radar-guided weapon is the most complex and expensive part of the process of clearing a modern fighter and AIM for service.

Astra has yet to make its first air launch – the date of this event slipped from 2004 and the latest series of firings between 25 and 29 March 2007 were still ground launched. In 2004, the Director of the DRDO said that development would take up to five years to complete, but an IOC of 2010 or 2011 now seems more realistic.

This is an AMRAAM-class weapon. The US missile programme was started in 1975 but the missile didn’t enter service until 1991.

Mercurius Cantanbrigiensis

 

[funtz]

The recent R-73 launch from the Tejas was obviously a significant milestone for the Indian programme, but we need to keep a sense of perspective. This was essentially a separation firing – there was no attempt to engage a target. More firings will be needed to demonstrates full integration of the missile and to clear the combination for operational use.

Integrating the Astra or any other kind of radar-guided air-to-air missile (AIM) will be a more severe technical challenge. According to MBDA, integrating a radar-guided weapon is the most complex and expensive part of the process of clearing a modern fighter and AIM for service.

Astra has yet to make its first air launch – the date of this event slipped from 2004 and the latest series of firings between 25 and 29 March 2007 were still ground launched. In 2004, the Director of the DRDO said that development would take up to five years to complete, but an IOC of 2010 or 2011 now seems more realistic.

This is an AMRAAM-class weapon. The US missile programme was started in 1975 but the missile didn’t enter service until 1991.

Mercurius Cantanbrigiensis

Yup that is how you do something by taking a step towards doing it.
Old as dirt, still holds true.
There will be a lot of test fire of Russian, French, Israeli weapons.
Still some time before Astra missile, Kaveri engine, MMR radar will be integrated meanwhile engine from GE russian/french/israeli weapons, Israeli radar will be used.

I am by no stretch of imagination an expert on integration of so called radar guided missiles with the radar, however i suppose with the extensive work done on integrating different missiles with the radar that will be used in the first 40 platforms, that is the EL 2032, will only leave some work to be done, and as you said by the time Astra and the MMR come out it will be 2012 which is quite some time.

 

[Titanium]

After Arjun MBT, LCA is questioned!!

http://www.hindu.com/2007/12/01/stories/2007120156141600.htm

Ravi Sharma

Data indicates that the LCA will not be able to meet Air Staff Requirements


Bangalore: With empirical data indicating that indigenous Light Combat Aircraft Tejas, in its present form, will not be able to meet the Air Staff Requirements (ASRs), the Indian Air Force (IAF) has raised serious questions over the future of the aircraft’s long term induction into the squadron service.

Not willing to be presented with a fait accompli at a later date, the IAF’s clear message is that as the end user it must be given what it wants and “what was repeatedly promised to it”; and an underpowered Tejas, which has also seen an increase in its basic all up weight, would not meet their requirements.

The IAF has communicated that the Tejas’ performance, both in terms of thrust and its airframe qualities, was still a long way from what was desirable. While the IAF had placed a firm order for 20 of the Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA) designed and developed Tejas, it has been assumed that the IAF would eventually buy over 200 of the aircraft.

Designed to have capabilities that fit it into the lower end of the combat aircraft spectrum, the Tejas was developed with the intention of replacing the MiG-21s, the ageing warhorse of the IAF which were inducted over 40 years ago and are of a design technology that has long been surpassed.

The Tejas, as per the IAF drawn up ASR, had to be “much, much better” than the MiG-21s. Though the fly-by-wire Tejas has its plus points, data, including from the aircraft’s recent low altitude tests at INS Rajali in Arakonam, showed that this might not be possible with the present configuration.

An Air Force officer said: “We have been given a mandate by the government and with this in mind drawn up an ASR. It has to be met. There is no point in the ADA pressuring us to accept a lower ASR at this stage. For years, at every meeting, the ADA has been saying that the Tejas will comply with the ASR.”

The Tejas, which has so far completed almost 800 test flights, is now powered by the General Electric manufactured GE F404 engine, which will eventually be replaced by the long-delayed Gas Turbine Research Establishment (GTRE) designed and developed Kaveri.

Having been unable to come up with an engine even after 17 years, the GTRE since 2005 been in talks with the Russians and the French, attempting to decide who among the two engine houses will help them bring out an engine. A co-developed engine will optimistically take four years to fructify.
Issues over thrust

But sources say that that neither the GE F404 nor the Kaveri will be able to provide the kind of thrust that can power the Tejas to ASR standards. Foreseeing this, the IAF had suggested that the Tejas could be powered by the more powerful GE F414 engine.

The ADA set up an internal committee to study the possibility, but since using the heavier and larger F414 would need modifications on the Tejas’ air intakes and the fuselage, further delaying the delayed project, the suggestion was ignored.

Official sources said that besides lack of installed thrust there were also niggles with the Tejas airframe, which would come up when the ADA expanded the Tejas’ flight test programme and went in for high angle of attack/ high alpha testing, very low speed trails, carefree manoeuvres and other combat related flying. “The Tejas requires aerodynamic fixes.” But this could further increase its all up weight.
Equal partners

Even as the IAF is unhappy with the Tejas’ performance, it is insisting that they are equal partners in the over Rs. 5,500 crore programme. “The ADA can work on a derivative of the Tejas. This is what aircraft design and development is all about. You can’t just thrust the first product down the customer’s throat.”

What's up with India's DRDO, first Arjun was cancelled, now questions has been raised on the future of LCA-Tejas? Is India better of buying the requirement from russia and leave this R&D stuff?

 

[funtz]

This issue has been around since earlier this year.

Error 404 - Performance Not Found
Written on August 15, 2007 – 10:28 am | by FIDSNS |

The Arakkonam tests validated LCA Tejas performance over sea level. The airframe and all other parameters were verified. Like all any other engine, GE F 404-IN20, which is the interim solution, could not sustain its normal thrust, as with case of all engines which are not made for Indian conditions.

Parallel to the tests in Arakkonam, the representatives from US had given a briefing to the Indian Air Force, pitching GE- F 414 engines for LCA. The offer also included redesigning the LCA Tejas to accommodate the GE- F 414. However it was felt that this offer defies the very Air Staff requirement (ASR) for the light weight, small aircraft. GE- F 414 is a bigger and heavier engine, LCA dimensions will drastically change and it will push back LCA development for at least 3-5 years. Also the past experience dealing with US on LCA weighed heavy on the Indian minds. This time US decides not to cooperate midway, the Tejas project will be non recoverable.

There is another feeling that the ASR’s specification for thrust of the Kaveri engine might be inadequate. Kaveri engine will require more thrust. If this is proven in the air, Indian Air Force will be at blame.

The solution lies with GTRE. GTRE engine Kaveri is a Flat rated engine. This in lay terms means that, as the engine thrust drops due to change in airflow or altitude or any other factor, the Kaveri engine has been designed to increase its revolutions per minute (RPM), in order to maintain the thrust. This is not possible by non-flat rated engines like GE- F 414. GE-F 414 might have a superior thrust to compensate, but as mentioned earlier, it will have other penalties on the very requirement of LCA type fighter.

IAF’s miscalculation of ASR for Kaveri thrust might have an solution. GTRE kaveri production version of K10 Std. engine, is expected to have more thrust than projected. In fact the Kaveri K9 + version is already showing the enhanced thrust in the tests. Since the exact figures for increased thrust requirement is not available, one cannot judge the extent of IAF’s blunder in drafting the ASR.

Which is the reason for seeking help in Kaveri engine.

i was more interested to see the

“The Tejas requires aerodynamic fixes.” But this could further increase its all up weight.

I think the term 'sarkari babu' (government officers) has relevance here if you get my drift.

What another 30 years project and they do not even have the required thrust yet.

On top of that ADA has a design that still needs aerodynamic fixes.

And the thought that taxed money is going as pay for these guys incomes.

Is India better of buying the requirement from russia and leave this R&D stuff?

No i think we are better of improving the mistakes that have been made and increasing indigenous production lack of indigenous arms has hit us in many strategic ways.

from the pure terms of defending the borders yes we can always buy stuff from outside, the economy is still going good.

From a strategic point of view, we need to make the defense industry more effective and it is clear that the government owned and run organizations are doing some pathetic work and waisting money (which people hard after a lot of hard work), time to change these money pits into something remotely effective.

 

[Preceptor]

Merged LCA thread with Tejas.

 

[indian bull]

There was no need to start another LCA tejas thread but this guy unnecessarily started it, i think a banned member NERO has reincarnated in the form of Mr. T.

 

[funtz]

Be that as it may, the problem remains the same.

I do not get this, the Gripen runs on what engine?
"The Volvo Aero Corporation RM12 is a modular, fuel efficient, low bypass ratio afterburning turbofan in the 80 KN (18,000lb) thrust class. "

total length: 4.04 m/159 in
max.diameter: 0.884 m/34.8 in
inlet diameter: 0.709 m/37.9 in
engine dry weight 1055 kg/2325 lbs
bypass ratio 0.31:l
total compression ratio 27.5:l
max thrust with afterburner 80.5 kN/18100 lb
max thrust without afterburner 54 kN/12150 lb

Empty weight: 6,620 kg (14,600 lb)
Loaded weight: 8,720 kg (19,200 lb)

http://www.volvo.com/volvoaero/global/en-gb/products/aircraft+engines/RM12/technical+data.htm

The HAL tejas is supposed to run for the first 40 airframes on the F404-GE-IN20 turbofan engine
Preformance Specifications (sea level/standard day)
Thrust Class: 19000 lb, 84 kN
Length: 159 in, 404 cm
Airflow: 153 lb/sec,70 kg/sec
Weight: 2365 lb, 1072 kg
Inlet Dimention: 28 in, 71 cm
Pressure ratio: 28:1, 28:1

Empty weight: 5,500 kg (12,100 lb)
Loaded weight: 8,500 kg (18,700 lb)

I still do not understand what is the nature of this thrust problem?


If the thrust problems exist then how is Gripen going to compete in the MMRCA and indigenise the Engine to meet the so called local conditions?

If they are going to do something about it, we might as well just adapt their solutions.

This is a real mess.

 

[wp2000]

Engine thrust is not the only factor effecting flight charactoristics. If it's the same engine, then you need to check other factors, like weight, aero dynamic design, FBW etc... e.g. air intake design can affect engine performance significantly.

So, I don't think it's very easy to make comparisons between 2 aircrafts.

 

[funtz]

Engine thrust is not the only factor effecting flight charactoristics. If it's the same engine, then you need to check other factors, like weight, aero dynamic design, FBW etc... e.g. air intake design can affect engine performance significantly.

So, I don't think it's very easy to make comparisons between 2 aircrafts.

would it not be a bit loo late into the program to do major changes i assume what you site are major changes:
for example, i imagine that the inlet dia if increased will have major bearing on the over all dynamics and will require further changes, as it is the engine that was designed for the aircraft, the Kaveri engine will only come into being by 2012-13 and that too with major french or russian assistance.

So essentially will you say that the design team (DRDO-NAL-HAL) are stuck if the kaveri engine meets the specifications, that is with a bif IF as the project is still deciding between French and Russian companies to help complete the engine.

And as the article said

“The Tejas requires aerodynamic fixes.

will that not essentially kill the projects envisioned induction by 2010, which will essentially force the Airforce to either buy a immediate replacement, speed up the MMRCA and may be increase the number of aircrafts to meet the falling numbers?

 

[wp2000]

IMHO, these tech problems are not that worrying. LCA does not involve any earth shattering tech that is not solvable.

If I were Indian, the problem I would worry is in the management: how to manage problems and delays.

 

[SABRE]

Due to continues violations of the forum by INDIANBULL, I am closing down all India related Threads under my jurisdiction until action has been taken by the Admin & Supermods.

The threads would be reopened after consultations with the Admin & moderators' board.

Meanwhile it is recommended to all the members not to open any new India related thread or a clone of the older ones.

Sorry for the inconvenience.