Eurofighter Typhoon Discussion Thread

[Musashi_kenshin]

Please use this as a thread for general discussion on the Typhoon. There are so many different threads out there covering topics - let's centralise the discussion. Could a moderator please sticky this? It's a popular topic so it would be good if people could find the thread easily.

I'll kick off the discussion with a news article already posted on another thread.

Japan may buy Eurofighter, defence minister says

Japan is considering buying Eurofighter Typhoons to replace part of its ageing air force fleet, Defence Minister Shigeru Ishiba said in an interview on Wednesday.

Tokyo had shown interest in buying the Lockheed-Martin F-22 Raptor, which boasts stealth capabilities far superior to those of any other aircraft available, but the U.S. government is reluctant to allow the technology to be exported, even to a close ally such as Japan.

"The F-22 is an exceptional aircraft," Ishiba said. "But we at the Defence Ministry have not decided that it is absolutely necessary for Japan."

Ishiba said the strongest alternative among planes manufactured by other countries was the Eurofighter. "The French Rafale is difficult to use. We certainly wouldn't choose a Russian fighter plane. So I think it would be the Eurofighter Typhoon," he said.

This is certainly a huge boost for Typhoon's further export order chances. I think that bar the Americans doing a speedy U-turn and make the F-22 available (near impossible given the need to remove congressional controls) this puts Typhoon in pole position.

 

[Scorpion82]

@Musashi,
to answer your question from the other thread. I have some publications which speak about the responsibilities. Additionally I'm closely follow Eurofighter's marketing efforts. In 2001 EADS insisted a take part in the Czech republic competition for 24-36 new fighters, but eventually refused the bid due unusual requests from the Czech such as prices in czech crones and offers & documentation in czech. We know that the original plans changed after the high water problems in summer 2002.
I don't know why this or that country is an assigned responsiblity for this or that partner, but I assume it has to do with traditional ties.
Bulgaria is not that likely yes, but an RFI was issued to Eurofighter.

 

[Ozzy Blizzard]

I just have a couple of questions about that bad ass typhoon of yours!

Do you guys see any real problems occuring with Trache 3, and are there plans for tranche 1+2 tiffies to undergoe a trance upgrade programe to T3 standard??? If so do you see any problems as far as availability of a huge chunck of the RAF's orbat undergoring extensive upgrades?

Is there any chance of 2D/3D TVC being incorperated in Tranche 3??? I heard some rumers but i cant find anything concrete. Is it worth the weight/thrust/maintinance penalty, considering the impersive agility the platform allready has???

Are you exited about the next red flag? How do you think she will go???

 

[Scorpion82]

Do you guys see any real problems occuring with Trache 3, and are there plans for tranche 1+2 tiffies to undergoe a trance upgrade programe to T3 standard??? If so do you see any problems as far as availability of a huge chunck of the RAF's orbat undergoring extensive upgrades?

Discussions about the numbers are underway for years, already in 2002 the UK insisted to reduce the numbers. Until now nothing has changed. True is that especially Italy and the UK have some funding problems in the future with other ongoing projects such as new carriers, F-35 etc.. The contracts leave little room for reductions, as long as not all partners agree and Germany and Spain have no interest in reducing their commitment. It looks more like Tranche 3 examples won't differ that much from Tranche 3 to save costs in the short term, while upgrades could be realised at a later time.
Tranche 1 examples will all be brought up to block 5 standard, but it is unknown if they will be converted to a higher standard at a later time. The Luftwaffe for example has currently no interest in bringing up its Tranche 1 aircraft to Tranche 2 or 3. Therefore it remains uncertain how this situation will develope.

Is there any chance of 2D/3D TVC being incorperated in Tranche 3??? I heard some rumers but i cant find anything concrete. Is it worth the weight/thrust/maintinance penalty, considering the impersive agility the platform allready has???

A 3-D TVN was developed by MTU & ITP back in the 90's. The nozzle was ground tested on an EJ200 and had impressive characteristics (sweep angle 23.5°/s, speed 110°/s). Since then 3-D TVC is offered as a possible option by the industry, but the customers see no need/have no requirement. I think it's very unlikely to see TVC being fitted to the Typhoon anytime soon. Maybe an export customer might require it, but I don't think the original customers do so. As you said the benefits would be limited and probably not worth the effort for the offsets.

Are you exited about the next red flag? How do you think she will go???

I fear we won't get much info about that. BTW when is it supposed to run?

 

[Scorpion82]

Some news

Eurofighter Launches Offer for Multi-Role Planes in Romania


(Source: Xinhua News Agency; issued Oct. 22, 2007)



The Eurofighter consortium is ready to deliver 24 Typhoon aircraft to the Romanian Air Force in the 2010-2014 period, the program director for Romania Giuseppe Paoletti said on Friday at a press conference organized within the EXPOMIL 2007 show in Bucharest.

Moreover, the consortium is willing to provide the first operational squadron of Typhoon warplanes in 2010.

The Eurofighter official underscored that Finnmecanica of Italy was interested in buying the local Craiova-based Aircraft Factory, which may offer technical support and maintenance for the Typhoon warplane.

Giuseppe Paoletti hinted that if the program in Romania unfolded well, the plane might be assembled in the country. He added the firm might bring also other subcontractors for the offset contract that is usually signed in such cases.

According to Paoletti, the purchase price is comparable to the one of the twin-engined warplanes, but the maintenance costs are much lower than those for other models.

"These are not cheap aircraft, but a Typhoon warplane can carry out missions that, in the case of other aircraft models, require several aircraft," explained the representative of the Eurofighter consortium.

The Eurofighter consortium presented at EXPOMIL its offer for replacing the MiG-21 LanceR fighter jets of the Romanian Air Force. According to the representatives of the consortium, Typhoon is the most important high-technology program in Europe and the main European collaboration program in defense, involving over 120,000 people.

www.defense-aerospace.com

 

[F-15 Eagle]

I doubt that Japan will buy the typhoon, most likely the F-35 or F-15E or the F/A-18 E/F.:nutkick

 

[Musashi_kenshin]

I doubt that Japan will buy the typhoon, most likely the F-35 or F-15E or the F/A-18 E/F.

Then I'm not sure you know much about the JASDF's needs. The F-35 would arrive far too late to replace the F-4s - that deadline is non-negotiable. I don't think the Super Hornet is what Japan wants either.

The only real American option is a Strike Eagle variant - even then there are concerns whether that will cut the mustard in the future against the PLAAF. I think the Japanese defence minister's comments shows that they are taking the Typhoon very seriously - certainly that's what I've heard from defence correspondents.

 

[Ozzy Blizzard]

Then I'm not sure you know much about the JASDF's needs. The F-35 would arrive far too late to replace the F-4s - that deadline is non-negotiable. I don't think the Super Hornet is what Japan wants either.

The only real American option is a Strike Eagle variant - even then there are concerns whether that will cut the mustard in the future against the PLAAF. I think the Japanese defence minister's comments shows that they are taking the Typhoon very seriously - certainly that's what I've heard from defence correspondents.

Sertainly soudns like it would be most suitable replacement of the F4. The cruise missile threat is a serious consideration for JSDF, thats one reason why they wanted F22 so badly. F15E does enjoy range and payload benifits, but F15J enjoys those anyway. The japanese want A2A capbablility above all else, and Typhoon looks like the most capable platform that fulfills their criteria. A 2 tiered force of EF2000 & F35 looks like the most likely outcome, it should be a very capable force structure. The only other real ulternative is advanced F15E variants, al la F15SG. However they would get APG 63(v) 3 stock with new F15J+, something thats a BIG advantage over Typhoon. Annother issue will be that they will want to maunfacture the platform under liscence, will the consortium be cool with that???

 

[Izzy1]

Annother issue will be that they will want to maunfacture the platform under liscence, will the consortium be cool with that???

48 of Saudi's Typhoons will be manufactured in Saudi via Warton-supllied kit.

Given that, and as important as a Japanese order would be to Eurofighter GmbH, I can't see any reasons to object to license production, technology transfer or the possible integration of Japanese-sourced avionics into their platforms.

 

[Musashi_kenshin]

Annother issue will be that they will want to maunfacture the platform under liscence, will the consortium be cool with that???

Yes, they've already said they'd do that. They've even suggested making a customised model to suit Japan's needs better.

 

[Ozzy Blizzard]

Yes, they've already said they'd do that. They've even suggested making a customised model to suit Japan's needs better.

Aahh, EF2KJ????? I wonder what we would be looking at? CFT's? Japanese weapons? New Radar? It will (would) be very interesting to see what kint of final configuration they will order.

 

[Izzy1]

Eurofighter for Switzerland?

BAE has today announced that Eurofighter is being officially tendered for the Swiss Air Force's New Fighter Aircraft (NFA) programme.

EADS Germany will lead the consortium's bid and economic offset programme.

 

[European]

So, the new candidate are Switzerland, Japan and Romania?

 

[Scorpion82]

Don't forget about Turkey, Norway, Denmark, Bulgaria and India. Though the chances are different for the aircraft.

 

[swerve]

I doubt that Japan will buy the typhoon, most likely the F-35 or F-15E or the F/A-18 E/F.:nutkick

For the tenth (at least!) time -

F-35 is a candidate for future purchases, but not this one. It cannot be delivered in time. The aircraft which now need replacing cannot be kept in service until F-35 can be delivered. The JASDF will do all in its power to avoid having its front-line strength cut by one-third while it waits for F-35.

Gottit?

 

[Scorpion82]

IPA6 flies

IPA6 (BS031/ZJ 938) completed its maiden flight today. The aircraft is built to the Tranche 1 standard, but fitted with Tranche 2 avionics.

www.eurofighter.com

First Flight of Eurofighter Typhoon IPA6
Tranche 2 Avionics now in Flight Test
01 November 2007

Hallbergmoos – The first Eurofighter Typhoon loaded with Tranche 2 avionics took to the air today at BAE Systems’ Warton facility. Instrumented Production Aircraft Six (IPA6) completed its maiden flight under the control of Mark Bowman, Eurofighter Typhoon test pilot at BAE Systems.

IPA6 at Warton will be used for Tranche 2 flight test. It’s first prominent task will be to accomplish Type Acceptance for Block 8, the first capability standard of the second Tranche Eurofighter Typhoon, in April 2008.

While IPA6 (BS031) is essentially a Tranche 1 standard aircraft, it uses the full Tranche 2 mission computer suite and avionics features. IPA7 (GS029) is the first aircraft that represents the full Tranche 2 build standard. The first flight of IPA7 is expected before the end of 2007 at the Manching site of EADS, Germany.

The first Tranche 2 EJ200 engine had already flown on IPA2 in Italy on 14 September. This test aircraft, operated by Alenia, will undertake the necessary evaluation and certification work for this new EJ200 version.

The significant Tranche 2 features focus mainly on the new mission computers which deliver the higher processing and memory capacity required for the integration of future weapons such as Meteor, Storm Shadow and Taurus. Differences in the build standard to Tranche 1 are related to changes in production technology or obsolescence.

The Eurofighter consortium will deliver 251 aircraft, 91 to the United Kingdom, 79 to Germany (including 15 aircraft originally contracted by Austria), 47 to Italy and 34 to Spain. The original Tranche 2 production contract was signed 14 December 2004. Deliveries of Tranche 2 Eurofighter Typhoons to all four Partner Nations will begin in Summer 2008 and are scheduled to run until 2013. 18 aircraft are already in final assembly at the partner companies Alenia Aeronautica, BAE Systems, EADS CASA and EADS Deutschland.

 

[spsun100001]

There was an article in this months Air Forces Monthly suggesting that the UK might seek to exit from its tranche 3 commitments due to the Suadi buy. I understand the Saudi buy will push back the UK procurement for tranche 3 as their aircraft will be on the production line ahead of ours. I'm not sure how it could get us out of the contractual straightjacket of having to buy the aircraft or pay prohibitive compensation.

Can anyone shed any light on this? There was another story circulating a couple of weeks back that potential unit price increases for tranche 3 aircraft could have the Italians backing out of the programme. Is there some sort of exit opportunity if unit costs rise?

Also, the AFM article said that the RAF would rather have the tranche 1 and 2 aircraft upgraded at the expense of procuring tranche 3 if they had to make the choice between the tranche 3 aircraft and the upgrades for the earlier tranches. Not sure if that was just editorial opinion embedded in the article or is based on an accepted consensus.

 

[Scorpion82]

Can anyone shed any light on this?

Since 2002 the UK insists to cancel tranche 3, until now nothing has been confirmed. The Saudis will get 24 aircraft originally intended for the RAF in the 2008 - 2010 time frame. The UK will later receive the aircraft, that doesn't mean the overall UK order is reduced. The situation is not that different in Italy. The italians insist to reduce their tranche 3 buy, but nothing is fixed by now. Whether the unit price will go up is likely to depend on the equipment which has yet to be selected.

 

[Pingu]

I was watching a house of commons debate recently and it was said that scrapping RAFs third tranche and upgrading all Tranche 1 and 2 aircraft to Tranche 3 standard is under consideration.

Personally, I have always thought this is the best option. Although it would incur cancellation costs, the savings from 88 airframes of the third tranche would be significant and the savings could be spent on getting more capable Typhoons into service sooner.

At the moment, Tranche 1 and 2 Typhoons do not seem to be at the cutting edge. Aircraft such as Rafale, latest F-15s, Super Hornets etc are starting to be developed with AESA radars and other technologies which give the Typhoon a run for its money. By the time all the Tranche 2 aircraft are built, other (arguably more capable) aircraft will have been round for a few years.

The idea that Tranche 3 aircraft will not differ too much to tranche 2 aircraft dissappoints me. I think that given the cost and significance of the Typhoon project, a fully developed version should be developed, with an AESA radar, CFTs and full PIRATE capability.

Again, I believe that this is much more likely to happen (and be in service sooner) at the expense of 88 third tranche airframes. I also do not see the need for 232 Typhoons to replace a hundred or so Tornado F3s and sixty or so Jaguars. I believe a smaller force of more capable aircraft will be more cost effective and of more value to the RAF.

 

[jaffo4011]

I was watching a house of commons debate recently and it was said that scrapping RAFs third tranche and upgrading all Tranche 1 and 2 aircraft to Tranche 3 standard is under consideration.

Personally, I have always thought this is the best option. Although it would incur cancellation costs, the savings from 88 airframes of the third tranche would be significant and the savings could be spent on getting more capable Typhoons into service sooner.

At the moment, Tranche 1 and 2 Typhoons do not seem to be at the cutting edge. Aircraft such as Rafale, latest F-15s, Super Hornets etc are starting to be developed with AESA radars and other technologies which give the Typhoon a run for its money. By the time all the Tranche 2 aircraft are built, other (arguably more capable) aircraft will have been round for a few years.

The idea that Tranche 3 aircraft will not differ too much to tranche 2 aircraft dissappoints me. I think that given the cost and significance of the Typhoon project, a fully developed version should be developed, with an AESA radar, CFTs and full PIRATE capability.

Again, I believe that this is much more likely to happen (and be in service sooner) at the expense of 88 third tranche airframes. I also do not see the need for 232 Typhoons to replace a hundred or so Tornado F3s and sixty or so Jaguars. I believe a smaller force of more capable aircraft will be more cost effective and of more value to the RAF.

interestingly,air combat magazine ran an article recently on the rafale/typhoon and compared their capabilities.on the subject of their radars it woulds appear that the radar in the rafale is only a partial aesa type with performance still some way behind the typhoons captor in range and power etc.i think it pays not to automatically assume that just because an aircraft has the latest'in vogue'gadget that it actually superior to a more traditional type.
all things being equal aesa appears to be the way to go,but it only offers improvements in a co-ordinated and complete package....

also dont forget that the uk has 165 f3's and the jags are already out of service.232 aircraft is the minimum that the raf needs.they are alraeady having to pool the tornados(f3 and gr4) and remove individual squadron markings to make ends meet....