Eurofighter Typhoon Discussion Thread

[Alpha Epsilon]

I was watching a house of commons debate recently and it was said that scrapping RAFs third tranche and upgrading all Tranche 1 and 2 aircraft to Tranche 3 standard is under consideration.

They are also considering many things with my preferred option being all 232 being purchased.

At the moment, Tranche 1 and 2 Typhoons do not seem to be at the cutting edge.

Tranche 1 Block 5 is certainly at the cutting edge of air to air combat, Tranche 2 will be a great multirole fighter.

Aircraft such as Rafale, latest F-15s, Super Hornets etc are starting to be developed with AESA radars and other technologies which give the Typhoon a run for its money.

And you're assuming the Typhoon won't evolve? Tranche 2 is a leap from Tranche 1 for example.

By the time all the Tranche 2 aircraft are built, other (arguably more capable) aircraft will have been round for a few years.

By the time all Tranche 2s are built Rafale will have had an AESA for only a very short timeframe (probably maximum of one year) and only on a few aircraft. The first Tranche 2s are coming into service in just a few months. Also an AESA is being developed for Typhoon, it already flew on a development aircraft, the Saudis are said to be keen to further fund it.

The idea that Tranche 3 aircraft will not differ too much to tranche 2 aircraft dissappoints me. I think that given the cost and significance of the Typhoon project, a fully developed version should be developed, with an AESA radar, CFTs and full PIRATE capability.

Pirate will have full capability with Tranche 2 already.

 

[neil]

also dont forget that the uk has 165 f3's and the jags are already out of service.232 aircraft is the minimum that the raf needs.they are alraeady having to pool the tornados(f3 and gr4) and remove individual squadron markings to make ends meet....

I agree that the RAF needs as many as possible Typhoons. However the RAF has for a long time not had 165 Tornado F3's. Many airframes have been retired already. If you look at the current order of battle, you'll see.

OCU -about 22 airframes
25 Sqn - about 16 airframes
42 Sqn - about 16 airframes
111 Sqn - about 16 airframes

That gives you a total of about 60 to 70 aircraft. These are rough numbers and I stand to be corrected.

The UK has an extremely pressing need to equip its new Future Carriers with air groups. And with the cost of F35B ballooning, I think we will almost certainly see at least a reduced Typhoon buy with more money allocated to the F35 programme.

 

[Pingu]

They are also considering many things with my preferred option being all 232 being purchased.

I never said there weren't any other options being considered. I said that this was one of them and it happened to be my prefered option as I believe it will be the only way of making full upgardes to the Typhoon affordable.

Tranche 1 Block 5 is certainly at the cutting edge of air to air combat, Tranche 2 will be a great multirole fighter.

I believe the Typhoon is a great aircraft. All I am saying is that unless updated to its full extent it could fall behind. As I have said, Previous generation aircraft are gaining parity (in some respects) with the Typhoon at the relatively low cost of an upgrade.

And you're assuming the Typhoon won't evolve? Tranche 2 is a leap from Tranche 1 for example..

I am not saying it wont evolve, I'm saying how I think the timing and extent of its evolution should take place. At the moment, the Typhoon has a lot of potential (CFTs, TVC, CEASAR etc), but I believe that the European partners involved need to push more to make the improvements happen as atm, there does not seem to be a strong enough interest.

By the time all Tranche 2s are built Rafale will have had an AESA for only a very short timeframe (probably maximum of one year) and only on a few aircraft. The first Tranche 2s are coming into service in just a few months. Also an AESA is being developed for Typhoon, it already flew on a development aircraft, the Saudis are said to be keen to further fund it..

Okay, perhaps the Typhoons radar is not as bad as I may have suggested, but there is a thread on this forum about the Typhoon vs Rafale and it seems that the Rafale could become a more capable aircraft if upgraded to its own full potential and if I'm right, most likely at a lower cost than the Typhoon.

CEASAR is the name of the AESA radar you mention. I am not suggesting that there is no interest in this, but I am suggesting that there needs to be stronger interest and the CEASAR should without doubt be installed.

Pirate will have full capability with Tranche 2 already.

Yes, I stand corrected, the Tranche 2 will have full PIRATE capability. Does anybody know if the PIRATE will have a FLIR/LD mode for ATG roles. I have heard rumour of this but wonder about its value, when extrenal pods such as Litening and Sniper are about.

 

[Pingu]

also dont forget that the uk has 165 f3's and the jags are already out of service.232 aircraft is the minimum that the raf needs.they are alraeady having to pool the tornados(f3 and gr4) and remove individual squadron markings to make ends meet....

I have heard this before. What confuses me about this is that AFAIK, the 165 Jags and F3s includes reserve/attrition/training aircraft, does it not?

 

[Scorpion82]

Yes, I stand corrected, the Tranche 2 will have full PIRATE capability. Does anybody know if the PIRATE will have a FLIR/LD mode for ATG roles. I have heard rumour of this but wonder about its value, when extrenal pods such as Litening and Sniper are about.

"Full" PIRATE is just about software functionalities, the hardware is complete and by the time Tranche 2 aircraft will feature full PIRATE, block 5 will be upgraded as well.
PIRATE has no laser and therefore neither ranging nor designation. The system performs as FLIR however and will be able to track priority ground targets.

 

[swerve]

I have heard this before. What confuses me about this is that AFAIK, the 165 Jags and F3s includes reserve/attrition/training aircraft, does it not?

IIRC, 165 was the number of Tornado ADVs originally ordered by the RAF. By the time the last was delivered, I expect a few had been lost, so it's unlikely we ever had quite that many, & we certainly don't now.

The first 18 were F.2, not F.3, & none of those is now in service. 16 were used to provide airframe parts for damaged F.3s. The F.3s have suffered the usual attrition. Some have been broken down for spares, some lost. As an example, look at the 24 leased to Italy - only 4 were returned to RAF service, according to the list linked to below. One was kept by Italy.

http://www.tornado-data.com/Production/UK/f3_to_italy.htm

Normal - numbers diminish with time.

 

[barra]

Hi Guys,

Quick question from left field. I was looking at some photo's of the eurofighter doing AAR. The bucket seemed to me to be horribly close to the canards. Does anyone know of any reported damage to the canards during mid air refuelling? or is maybe my fertile imagination. I have seen more than a few Hornets lose their pitot probes due to boggy pilots learning to AAR.

Cheers,

Barra

 

[Scorpion82]

Hi Guys,

Quick question from left field. I was looking at some photo's of the eurofighter doing AAR. The bucket seemed to me to be horribly close to the canards. Does anyone know of any reported damage to the canards during mid air refuelling? or is maybe my fertile imagination. I have seen more than a few Hornets lose their pitot probes due to boggy pilots learning to AAR.

Cheers,

Barra

Check www.eurofighter.com, there're many pictures of Typhoons.

 

[barra]

Hi,

Thanks for the link mate, see how close the bucket is to that canard. That was what I was on about. With the Hornet the bucket tends to ride a shockwave around the nose of the aircraft. If the pilot doesn't get it right the bucket can end up swirling around the nose of the aircraft and take the pitot tube and AoA probe with it. If you get up close to some of 2OCU's Hornets the scars are still visible. I was just wondering if the bucket handled in a similar manner to this on the EF? :unknown

Cheers

 

[Scorpion82]

Let's say I never heared about any problems or incidents. In such situations canard movement is mainly limited to minor movements for stabilisation.

 

[Scorpion82]

News related to the LDP+LGB integration and helmet

Direct Hit for Typhoon


(Source: BAE Systems; issued Nov. 12, 2007)



DUBAI --- The Typhoon Combined Test Team (CTT), comprising staff from BAE Systems and the RAF, has successfully completed the first mission to drop a laser guided bomb, scoring a direct hit at the Aberporth range in the UK.

The trials aircraft, BT005, flown by Flt Lt Dave Bowlzer from 17 Squadron and BAE Systems test pilot Paul Stone, completed the first fully laser guided weapon release using the Litening III laser designator pod (LDP). The weapon dropped was an Enhanced Paveway II which was successfully guided onto the target to achieve the direct hit. This live weapon release follows a series of trial sorties with the LDP and dummy weapons to prove the mission and avionics systems.

This significant achievement means that the team is some way ahead of the planned schedule to deliver a full precision-guided, air-to-surface capability in advance of Typhoon’s expected Operational Employment date in mid 2008.

Commenting on the achievement of this significant milestone, BAE Systems Typhoon Project Pilot Mark Bowman said: “The successful proving of this important capability, reaffirms the significant progress we are making in meeting the multi-role requirements expected of this cutting-edge aircraft. The planning and execution of the trial has set new standards for future co-operative trials activities in the UK. BAE Systems fully identifies with the value of combined trials and looks forward to supporting increasing levels of activity in this expanding area of flight test activity”.

Following analysis of the results, further operational tests and evaluations will take place in early 2008.


BAE Systems is the premier global defence and aerospace company delivering a full range of products and services for air, land and naval forces, as well as advanced electronics, information technology solutions and customer support services. With 96,000 employees worldwide, BAE Systems' sales exceeded £15 billion (US $27 billion) in 2006 on a pro forma basis, assuming BAE Systems had owned Armor Holdings Inc for the whole of 2006. (ends)


Typhoon Heading for Success


(Source: BAE Systems; issued Nov. 12, 2007)



DUBAI –-- Typhoon’s world leading helmet, known as Head Equipment Assembly (HEA), is currently undergoing its latest development trials.

The current trials are focusing on the capability of the helmet system to display flight reference information together with various aircraft weapons and sensor data. The integration of the Night Vision Enhancement (NVE) devices is also being tested to prove their limitations and acceptability for operations.

This set of trials is part of the ongoing development work that will eventually include integrated Nuclear, Biological and Chemical (NBC) protection in addition to the NVE capability. Recent tests with pilots in a ground-based simulator wearing the full NBC flying kit have shown very promising results.

Dave Brown, head of the HEA Development team at BAE Systems said, “The latest round of development flights trials represents a significant milestone in the overall HEA development programme and the results have been very encouraging. There are still a number of challenges ahead in delivering this key element of Typhoon’s capability into frontline service but these test flights will provide key information that will enable us to continue improving the equipment with an aim of delivery into full operational service by 2009.”

The Typhoon helmet, which will provide the Typhoon pilots with a helmet which displays key mission data onto the pilot’s helmet visor, is being developed by BAE Systems staff at Rochester in Kent, UK and integrated by the BAE Systems team at Warton in Lancashire, UK.


BAE Systems is the premier global defence and aerospace company delivering a full range of products and services for air, land and naval forces, as well as advanced electronics, information technology solutions and customer support services. With 96,000 employees worldwide, BAE Systems' sales exceeded £15 billion (US $27 billion) in 2006 on a pro forma basis, assuming BAE Systems had owned Armor Holdings Inc for the whole of 2006.

-ends-

http://www.defense-aerospace.com/cg...971121.5TPibn8AAAEAAGB7mJgAAAAR&modele=jdc_34

 

[vetrival]

I've been tryin to find out the definitive capabilities of the tranche three Eurofighters and wether it will have a credible AESA radar and 3D/2D TVC, so far I have not found anything substantial on the topic. Can someone help me out?PLEASE.

Also when will the MBDA Meteor be ready to be integrated with the Eurofighter?

 

[swerve]

I've been tryin to find out the definitive capabilities of the tranche three Eurofighters and wether it will have a credible AESA radar and 3D/2D TVC, so far I have not found anything substantial on the topic. Can someone help me out?PLEASE.

Also when will the MBDA Meteor be ready to be integrated with the Eurofighter?

I believe you will not be able to find out the definitive capabilities of Typhoon tranche 3, because AFAIK, they have not yet been decided. I don't think TVC is on the agenda, though.

 

[Sintra]

I've been tryin to find out the definitive capabilities of the tranche three Eurofighters and wether it will have a credible AESA radar and 3D/2D TVC, so far I have not found anything substantial on the topic. Can someone help me out?PLEASE.

Also when will the MBDA Meteor be ready to be integrated with the Eurofighter?

You havent find anything definitive because it´s not decided yet.
Industry has presented (by the end of 2007) a very vast range of possibilities to the four consortium partners.
Those proposal´s are being discussed right now and until the production contract his signed the only thing you can do his wait. Expect a signed contract by the end of this year/first half of 2009.
On one end of the spectrum, Great Britain and Italy "dump" the entire Tranche 3 (highly unlikely, there are massive contract penalties involved) and the Germain and Spanish "Phoon´s" are an exact copy of the Tranche 2 fighters that are being delivered by now. On the opositte end of the spectrum, the four partners receive the entire Tranche3 and the planes will be a massive advance over the Tranche2, CFT´s, stronger engines with AVEN style Thrust Vectoring, RCS cut by half, IR reduction techniques, a next generation gimballed AESA antena (highly unlikely, massive development costs associated).
Every one of the items mentioned above has been offered by industry with a certain price tag, it´s all a question of costs.
The picture will be a lot clearer by the end of this year and something might come out at Farnborough but i doubt that the contract will be signed by then.

 

[kato]

I don't think TVC is on the agenda, though.

It is. A Eurofighter was equipped with 3D TVC EJ200s in 1998 for trials. It's not definitely on the agenda yet to include this new nozzle, but some nations in the consortium - and the production companies - are interested in including it for Tranche 3.
Although, considering some nations would love to scrap/reduce Tranche 3 for cost considerations, i doubt Tranche 3 modification will really be anywhere near as extensive as originally envisioned.

 

[Sintra]

It is. A Eurofighter was equipped with 3D TVC EJ200s in 1998 for trials. It's not definitely on the agenda yet to include this new nozzle, but some nations in the consortium - and the production companies - are interested in including it for Tranche 3.
Although, considering some nations would love to scrap/reduce Tranche 3 for cost considerations, i doubt Tranche 3 modification will really be anywhere near as extensive as originally envisioned.

The 1998 EJ230 AVEN TVC engine was never fitted to a Typhoon. It did a lot of bench test hours, but was never fitted to a fighter.
I am not aware that any of the four consortium partners had expressed something more than a very "light" interest in TVC. The RAF has expressed a keen interest in CFT´s, or at least bigger external tanks, the German MOD paid part of the CAESAR tests but TVC? Only the Industry has pushed the idea.
I do think that Swerve his correct on this one.

 

[Scorpion82]

Not even the final T2 standard (block 15) has yet been decided. I have some doubts we'll know any concrete details about the T3s block 20 & 25 aircraft much before 2010 at all. The specific configurations are just decided some 4 years before delivery. I think an AESA radar and CFTs are likely, TVC is unlikely as there is no real interest. Further improvments might include further developing the DASS and NCW capabilities and weapons integration. Meteor integration is planned for block 15 aircraft, but integration is negotiated seperately. BTW there was never an EJ230 or EJ270 this were just proposed suggestions for increased thrust engines, it might also be that these engines if they are developed will be designated EJ200 MK103 or something like that. The EJ200 used on T1 aircraft is called MK101 and I assume that of the T2 examples will be MK102 due some changes, though that hasn't been officially confirmed.

 

[Sintra]

. BTW there was never an EJ230 or EJ270 this were just proposed suggestions for increased thrust engines, it might also be that these engines if they are developed will be designated EJ200 MK103 or something like that. .

I dont know if the "EJ230" designation went official, but in the late nineties the enginer staff at ITP (Industria de Turbo Propulsores) called the AVEN TVC test engine the "230" on a routine basis.

Cheers

 

[JWCook]

Early Typhoon engines designations are:-

EJ200-DVE in 1988 (test-bed only - various changes throughout life to support development of flight engines)
EJ200-01A in 1995 (first flight standard with C1 DECU)
EJ200-01C in 1997 (modified HP compressor and reduced smoke combustor)
EJ200-03A in 1998 (all-blisk fan and new C2 DECU. Lean-burn combustor with vaporisers replaced by atomisers)
EJ200-03B in 1999 (modified LP and HP compressors, and rich-burn combustor with atomisers)
EJ200-03Z in 1999 ("production look-alike" - modified HPC and HPT, new OGV and LPT)
EJ200-101 EIS Production engine in 2002 (1st batch of engines have new LPT)
EJ200-101 FOC Production engine in 2004 (modified HPC and LPT)

I don't know if the EJ230 series were given anything official, or if the incremental nature of developments have blurred the lines of EJ200/220/230/270 as the emphasis in now on extending life of the engine not on thrust as it doesn't seem to be lacking in that department.


Cheers

 

[Fritz]

I think Typhoon is allready the 2nd fastest dry thrust plane on the planet, what i'd like to see on it is a couple of CFT to rectify its one flaw.