U-214 SSK problems

[zewok]

Dear zewok,

Bribes and manipulation cannot explain 62 active/ordered/building Type 209 boats around the world in 14 navies. Type 209 families of submarines, from Type 209/1100 "Glavkos" class which entered service in ca. 1971 to the latest version Type 209/1400PN which was ordered by Portugal in 2004 clearly shows the success of the design and HDW, IMHO. I don't know what were the roles bribe, manipulation or political threats in those sales, but if there is such an export history, one must look at "other possible factors", am I wrong?

Possible factors such as design, building and operational experience maybe..

Type 209, along with Kilo, Daphné and Oberon classes is one of "the four horsemen of SSK's", I think. The countries which designed and built those boats, i.e Germany, Russia (ex USSR), France and UK have some submarine design and operating experience from WWII. As we all know, German navy's and shipbuilding industry's experience with submarines are more than "some", which without doubt has great contribution in the export success of this country's submarine designs in the post WWII era.

One moment....here we speak about U214 Submarine.

I'm totally agree to say that U209 is a (very) good submarine for his generation and the german submarine history is among the greatest. German U boat have influenced all the other country submarine designer after WWII.

I also think that this reputation of german submarine during the WWII have always an influence today. I just want to say that U214 is probably not the best HDW Submarine today.

So compared with what the other shipyard propose, it's not my favorit

 

[gf0012-aust]

So compared with what the other shipyard propose, it's not my favorit

Personally, I'd be placing anything out of the HDW stable in the top 3 conventionals (in a somewhat shifting order of rank) without any fear or favour.

I certainly wouldn't be putting a Kilo in the top 5.

at an acoustic level, they (214) don't get much better.

the reality is that the best submarine is useless if the crew is not well trained. and the "worst" submarine with a good crew will put the frights up anyone.

 

[Waylander]

HDW is not only making the U214 but also the U212A. The third batch has been approved just recently for our navy.
And we as well as the Italians seem to be pleased with it.

GF is totally right as always when he states that crew training is much more important than anything else.

@GD
I explain this tipo with me coming back from a bar before I wrote this.

 

[contedicavour]

HDW is not only making the U214 but also the U212A. The third batch has been approved just recently for our navy.
And we as well as the Italians seem to be pleased with it.

GF is totally right as always when he states that crew training is much more important than anything else.

@GD
I explain this tipo with me coming back from a bar before I wrote this.

We sure are satisfied with our 2 U212As and we will confirm the option for 2 more mid-2008. We'd do it earlier but we are short of funds and priority goes to funding all 10 FREMM FFGs.
Btw, the South Koreans are also very happy with their U214s.
There is also a 3rd design around, the one handed over to Israel (3 built and 2 more expected).
France's Scorpene has also proven very competitive with successful orders to Malaysia and India complemeting Chile's 2 subs. Though I wouldn't start complaining about bribes paid by HDW... it is common knowledge nobody's squeaky clean about this and most definitively not DCN (remember the mess with the Taiwanese Lafayette ??)

cheers

 

[BilalK]

From the people who visited IDEAS 2006 in Karachi, it seems the PN has tilted quite heavily towards the U-214 SSK - read the PakDef report.

 

[European]

News about the greek submarine.
It seems that there are serious problems, not easy (aka impossible) to solve.

http://img141.imageshack.us/img141/6702/hdw3qy0.jpg

http://img141.imageshack.us/img141/4661/hd4rc8.jpg

 

[Waylander]

There were several other artciels in our press here.

There they said that the sub is ready but greece refuses to take it because of being short on money.
Due to my location even the local newspapers talked about it.

If seen the sub not that long ago lying on the pier here at HDW. It lay there for a long time with HDW saying they are ready but Greece doesn't want to take it back. They were not working on it anymore, this looks like they are confident the problems are solved.

The whole situation is strange and it is difficult to know whom to believe.

 

[harryriedl]

There were several other artciels in our press here.

There they said that the sub is ready but greece refuses to take it because of being short on money.
Due to my location even the local newspapers talked about it.

If seen the sub not that long ago lying on the pier here at HDW. It lay there for a long time with HDW saying they are ready but Greece doesn't want to take it back. They were not working on it anymore, this looks like they are confident the problems are solved.

The whole situation is strange and it is difficult to know whom to believe.

parhaps the candians want it for the arctic their have been mumering of new subs to partrol the northwest passage and the U214 have been mentioned

 

[crobato]

It would suit the Canadians for artic patrolling since the sail without planes makes it suitable for surface ice breaking.

 

[contedicavour]

There were several other artciels in our press here.

There they said that the sub is ready but greece refuses to take it because of being short on money.
Due to my location even the local newspapers talked about it.

If seen the sub not that long ago lying on the pier here at HDW. It lay there for a long time with HDW saying they are ready but Greece doesn't want to take it back. They were not working on it anymore, this looks like they are confident the problems are solved.

The whole situation is strange and it is difficult to know whom to believe.

I don't understand what the Greeks could take as an alternative to the U214. Their whole submarine fleet is German. Their 8 Type 209s are now 20 to 30 years old and despite some refurbishments they are close to retirement. Even the local shipyards are owned by HDW and the government won't risk closing down the local shipyards by stopping the U214 programme...

cheers

 

[tphuang]

parhaps the candians want it for the arctic their have been mumering of new subs to partrol the northwest passage and the U214 have been mentioned

I think we got the upholders a while back. Considering our relationships with ABAC countries, I think we might get some help building our submarines like the Australians did with the Collins class.

 

[BLACK SHIP]

The payment for the U214s are no real issue since is 80% complete.
The first sub as a prototype had /has problems and that's the real reason for the Greek Navy doesn't take it.There are steps taken to solve them but the problems remain.They rectified them on subsequent subs but the fact is that the first still has them and the real question is who is going to pay for it.

 

[kato]

Their 8 Type 209s are now 20 to 30 years old and despite some refurbishments they are close to retirement.

German Type 206A are now 32-34 years old, and at least four of them are expected to stay in service until they hit 40. Just for comparison.

 

[BLACK SHIP]

I don't understand what the Greeks could take as an alternative to the U214. Their whole submarine fleet is German. Their 8 Type 209s are now 20 to 30 years old and despite some refurbishments they are close to retirement. Even the local shipyards are owned by HDW and the government won't risk closing down the local shipyards by stopping the U214 programme...

cheers

Only one of the two major shipyards is owned by HDW .Three of the second batch {U209/1200} are upgraded .Actually when they are finished will be very capable subs with AIP sub harpoon capability and new system's .The Hellenic Navy anticipates that they will to stay more than 10 years in service after their rebuilt.

 

[kato]

Only one of the two major shipyards is owned by HDW

The other one would be Elefsina?

Problem would be that Elefsina doesn't really have any sub-building experience (neither did Skaramangas though).

 

[BLACK SHIP]

The other one would be Elefsina?
Problem would be that Elefsina doesn't really have any sub-building experience (neither did Skaramangas though).

Yes Elefsina is the other one which does Navy work.
There is no question of closing down Skaramangas.The building of the final two subs will continue .As I said the problem is who is going to pay the bill to correct the problem.A compromise in Government level is the most probable solution with both sides taking their share .

 

[MEKO200HN]

Yes Elefsina is the other one which does Navy work.
There is no question of closing down Skaramangas.The building of the final two subs will continue .As I said the problem is who is going to pay the bill to correct the problem.A compromise in Government level is the most probable solution with both sides taking their share .

I agree, since 80% of the contract's price has already been paid, the balance will be settled by compromise.
Besides Papanikolis, the first Greek-built sub, Pipinos, also shares same problems. Strangely enough-for a German shipyard with HDW's experience-it seems, according to some, that modelling of the U-214 was inadequate, if non-existent, they proceeded by "stretching" the U-209 design.
When Greece chose the U-214, no competition took place, it was chosen on the basis of HDW taking over Skaramangas Shipyards and the German Navy transferring four S-148 FACs to the Hellenic Navy.

 

[BLACK SHIP]

I agree, since 80% of the contract's price has already been paid, the balance will be settled by compromise.
Besides Papanikolis, the first Greek-built sub, Pipinos, also shares same problems. Strangely enough-for a German shipyard with HDW's experience-it seems, according to some, that modelling of the U-214 was inadequate, if non-existent, they proceeded by "stretching" the U-209 design.
When Greece chose the U-214, no competition took place, it was chosen on the basis of HDW taking over Skaramangas Shipyards and the German Navy transferring four S-148 FACs to the Hellenic Navy.

There are very few reports of the problems or the lack there off for the Pipinos.
However if the second one has the same problems , there is a serious setback for the Hellenic Navy and the solution will be very difficult for all the parties involved. .

 

[MEKO200HN]

There are very few reports of the problems or the lack there off for the Pipinos.
However if the second one has the same problems , there is a serious setback for the Hellenic Navy and the solution will be very difficult for all the parties involved. .

Pipinos-the first Greek-built sub-is a "carbon copy" of Papanikolis, as the problems were discovered during the sea trials, when construction was well advanced. According to HDW, remedial measures taken, have eliminated nearly all problems, presumably these shall be applied in the other three boats.
Unfortunately, neither HDW nor the Greek State,have ever stated clearly what the problems are, measures taken and course of action to be taken.
Another bizarre twist in the story is that no torpedoes have been ordered for the Type 214 subs.In case they enter service and till new torpedoes are delivered, they shall be fitted with legacy SUT/SST-4 torpedoes,as used by the Submarine Flotilla today.

 

[Viper7]

Well South Korea has taken delivery of its first U-214s, right?!?? There hasn't been any word of troubles with their subs, then the problem isn't with HDW production line, rather something to do with the Greeks themselves. It is odd to see this happening at such a time.