Royal New Zealand Navy Discussions and Updates

[recce.k1]

We haven't had the extra frigates and are not likely to have them, so what defensive capabilities do you think we need?

Up until the late 1990's the RNZN had 4 operational Frigates (then 3 operational Frigates until 2005).

Timeline:
Southland F104 (ex-HMS Dido) - decommissioned 1995.
Te Kaha F77 - commissioned 1997.
Waikato F55 - decommissioned 1998.
Te Mana F111 - commissioned 1999.
Wellington F69 (ex-HMS Bacchante) - decommissioned 2000.
Canterbury F421 - decommissioned 2005.

In simple terms, unfortunately ships cannot operate 365 days/year due to maintenance and re-fitting reasons (plus the more they are worked, the less their overall life-span will be). Not to mention the crews wanting to take shore leave!

It is standard recognised practice that "3" is the minimum number of ships required as at any one time, one can be undergoing maintenance, one working up (sea-trials and training after maintenance) and one on duty or deployment.

Y'know we Frigate supporters ain't too greedy or unrealistic, it's not like we're advocating say 6 Frigates (which was the RNZN Frigate fleet of the 50's and early 60's), we'd be happy to simply have a third for practical reasons!

 

[recce.k1]

Whats the update of the Inshore Patrols Vessels... ?

Presumably the first one isn't far off from entering service (there must be a few happy sailors out there getting to know every nook and crany on the Rotoiti).

Came across this site/picture showing the old and the new!
http://groups.msn.com/RNZN/projectprotector.msnw?action=ShowPhoto&PhotoID=587

Check out that mast! Looks like the new IPC's have a hell of a lot more complex electronics than its predecessors (despite them not having fire-control or hardcore surveillance radars)! Still would like to see them fitted with a remote controlled Bushmaster or Minityphoon one day, to allow the operator to "see" or id anything of interest at night and in all weathers etc. Would be an ideal training platform for those that progress onto the OPV's or even the ANZAC's (as the IPC's will be the vessels that will be patrolling the more densely populated small craft areas such as the Bay of Islands and Marlborough Sounds etc - good practice working in amongst multiple craft if one then ended up on an ANZAC undertaking interception and boarding missions in the even more densely populated Gulf or SE-Asian region).

 

[recce.k1]

RNZN Dive support ship fitted with side-scan sonar to operate REMUS AUV's

Navy's hi-tech mine hunters replace 'fish'
HANK SCHOUTEN - The Dominion Post - Monday, 17 September 2007

The navy has stepped up its ability to find underwater mines by buying sophisticated new US-made robotic mine hunters.

It has bought three Remus autonomous underwater vehicles (AUVs) which can rapidly check shipping lanes and harbours.

Up till now the navy relied largely on 1960s technology by which a sonar-emitting "fish" was towed behind inshore patrol craft.

The new 1.2-metre-long, 37-kilogram, torpedo-shaped mine hunters can be lowered over the side of a boat and are capable of diving to 100m, staying on track for up to 100 kilometres and sending signals to the surface whenever they detect something that could be a mine.

Navy capability director Gordon Stamp said they made the very slow and dangerous job of mine hunting much faster and safer.

The navy's three Remus AUVs and associated equipment were bought for $750,000 as part of the navy's commitment to counter the threat of mines.

Using older technology, minesweepers were lucky to clear a kilometre of seabed per hour. Each Remus AUV could run at three to five knots and scan a 30 metre swath of ocean floor.

The navy's dive support ship Manawanui has now been fitted with high-speed, side-scan sonar and equipment to support the operation of the Remus AUVs, which would be launched to check areas of concern. They could also be put to use on the frigates or other ships.

Though many countries now had Remus, the navy was the first to have them fitted to enable computer-aided detection and classification of mines.

If suspect mines were detected, divers could be sent down to destroy them, though the navy may also buy an automated mine detonation system.

He said the work being done now was was "at the bottom of the rung in terms of capability but we are doing that as part of the process of getting smart".

Remus was used by the US Navy to clear a southern Iraqi port at the start of its Iraq invasion.

Source: http://www.stuff.co.nz/stuff/dominionpost/4203910a6479.html

 

[gf0012-aust]

Remus was used by the US Navy to clear a southern Iraqi port at the start of its Iraq invasion.

Source: http://www.stuff.co.nz/stuff/dominionpost/4203910a6479.html

Nice piece of kit. RAN used Remus to verify the recent HMAS Sydney claims.

I actually thought this gear was already in service with RNZN as it appeared in some trade journals a few months back.

 

[recce.k1]

Nice piece of kit. RAN used Remus to verify the recent HMAS Sydney claims.

I actually thought this gear was already in service with RNZN as it appeared in some trade journals a few months back.

Yes, someone else posted here back a few months ago that the RNZN was buying the equipment. Perhaps it has only just become operational (or perhaps it did a while back but the RNZN has just held a demo for the media hence the story etc)? One of the Navy types might be able to confirm.

I was also wondering whether the new IPC's/crews would be using the AUV (and fit similar side scan sonar kits to the new IPC's) seeing the old IPC's and the Reservists were also tasked with mine detection for NZ's 4 main city ports and elsewhere etc.

 

[recce.k1]

HMNZS Canterbury Tactical Sealift Trials

Quote from NZDF Media Release http://www.nzdf.mil.nz/news/media-releases/20070917-naatons.htm

The New Zealand Army will be helping the Navy put its newest ship through her paces over the next week with the first integrated trial of HMNZS CANTERBURY’s embarked forces capabilities.

Around 250 soldiers and 50 vehicles, including a number of the Army’s Light Armoured Vehicles (LAVs) will be loaded onto the ship when she is berthed in Napier this week.

“This is an important activity for the Ship and provides a significant milestone in our plan to build operational capability,” says CANTERBURY Commanding Officer, Commander Tony Millar. “The requirement to take NZDF and coalition personnel and equipment to a port and offload them safely and efficiently will be an important aspect of CANTERBURY’s multi-mission capabilities.”

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Also an article from the Manawatu Standard outlining the Army's role in the exercise.

Linton troops join navy for joint sea, land operation
By CHRISTIAN BONNEVIE - Manawatu Standard | Wednesday, 19 September 2007

About 250 soldiers and 50 vehicles are being loaded onto the HNZMS Canterbury while it is berthed in Napier this week.

The sea trials run for a week and are designed to test the Canterbury's capability and tactical and administrative loading of the ship.

The army will disembark in Wellington on September 24 before starting the land-based component of Wolf Three, which will involve about 320 personnel and 70 vehicles.

Air Force Iroquois helicopters and Orion aircraft will also be involved.

The exercise aims to test the army in a contemporary operating environment designed to expose a range of potential scenarios based on current threats and historical events.

It will include live firing activities, both mounted and dismounted, in Waiouru and the Kaipara bombing range. Wolf Three is scheduled to conclude on October 18.

Linton troops embarked to help the navy put its newest ship through its paces in the first phase of exercise Wolf Three yesterday.

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

Good to see the tactical sealift training is picking up pace. Unsure whether Army vehicles are being off loaded via LCM craft in these trials (not at Wellington at least, off loaded at the wharf it seems according to some other info on the NZDF link) so be interesting to see how these go at some stage.

Wonder if an amphibious APC type vehicle could be a useful asset for the NZDF (i.e. to allow several vehicles to get to shore quicker as opposed to transporting 1 or 2 in the 2 LCM's)? If so, probably the HMNZS Canterbury may not be the best type of ship for these sorts of operations I suppose?

 

[KH-12]

I see that HMNZS Te Mana has been conducting fisheries patrols and boarding operations around the sub-Antartic islands in recent weeks, will be good when the OPV's are on line to conduct these operations on a more regular basis, a frigate certainly does seem overkill for this type of task. Interesting though that the Seasprite was used extensively as part of the patrol, so it will be interesting to see if Seasprite deployments become a standard deployment practice for the OPV's.

It's now been nearly a year (Nov 06) since Otago was launched does anyone have an update on delivery, it must be due fairly soon

 

[recce.k1]

HMNZS Canterbury Tactical Sealift Trials

HMNZS Canterbury arrives in Wellington and disembarks its infantry and vehicles.

"The latest addition to the navy is being put through its paces, and all systems were go yesterday when HMNZS Canterbury docked at Aotea Quay, Wellington, on a joint exercise with the army". http://www.stuff.co.nz/4213292a23918.html

Still want to see the Canty off loading its vehicles into the LCM's at sea as this was a major selling point of the design (especially as the competing RDS design featured a stern well etc).

 

[mug]

From NZ Herald:

Navy sailor drowns
9:42AM Saturday October 06, 2007

The Navy will reveal more details today after a sailor drowned off the coast of the Far North.

The 22-year-old was in an inflatable boat next to HMNZS Canterbury with three other sailors when it capsized in waters off Cape Reinga yesterday.

Two others were injured.

Commodore David Anson says the group was carrying out a routine check of the vessel HMNZS Canterbury and an investigation is being launched into what went wrong.

He says it could have been an equipment malfunction or a procedural error.

"We haven't lost a sailor in an accident like this in my memory and I've been in the Navy for 36 years."

The Canterbury is expected back at the Devonport Naval Base this morning.

The Chief of Navy, Rear Admiral David Ledson, has expressed his regret at the tragedy and extended his condolences to the families of the sailors.

Commodore Anson expects the inquiry to take several weeks.

- NEWSTALK ZB

My sincere condolences to the sailor's family and friends.

Update: TVNZ news clip here.

 

[recce.k1]

An absolute tragedy, especially for a 22 year old with his life ahead of him. My condolences to his family and fellow shipmates.

 

[Norm]

Otago delivery

It's now been nearly a year (Nov 06) since Otago was launched does anyone have an update on delivery, it must be due fairly soon[/QUOTE]


Should be here by 25 December 2007 , given it was due April 07 no guarantees. Some good pitures Canterbury and IPV Launch are on this site , search through Defence tab http://www.nzpaimages.co.nz/ cheers

 

[KiwiRob]

I've been told that HMNZS Canterbury is too big to fit into Calliope Dock, is this true, if so where would the Navy take her when she needs docking?

 

[stryker NZ]

It's now been nearly a year (Nov 06) since Otago was launched does anyone have an update on delivery, it must be due fairly soon


Should be here by 25 December 2007 , given it was due April 07 no guarantees. Some good pitures Canterbury and IPV Launch are on this site , search through Defence tab http://www.nzpaimages.co.nz/ cheers

oh talking about the IPV i found a video of one of them being launched

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IwZ8GlwepJE"]YouTube - New Zealand Yachts Launch[/ame]

sorry if its already been seen.


also on a side note does anyone know what condition the current patrol craft are in? because i was wondering if there would be any benefit in keeping them around and putting them under the full control of the reserves. This way it would give the reserves a bit of independance and allow them to train and go to sea more often without having to use the main navy resources eg the IPVs

 

[Lucasnz]

oh talking about the IPV i found a video of one of them being launched

YouTube - New Zealand Yachts Launch

sorry if its already been seen.


also on a side note does anyone know what condition the current patrol craft are in? because I was wondering if there would be any benefit in keeping them around and putting them under the full control of the reserves. This way it would give the reserves a bit of independance and allow them to train and go to sea more often without having to use the main navy resources eg the IPVs

Moa & Hinau were sold in March. Kiwi, as of last Friday lost the windows to the CO's cabin while heading to Dunedin in 7mtr seas and had to return to Christchurch. Not sure of the state of the vessels, but they have stability issues and are more of a liability than an asset. My old man works on the inter Island ferries - they track the IPC's going across the strait in bad weather because the master's are concerned about them even been at sea. They have complained to the navy about there useage in Cook Strait.

 

[Norm]

I've been told that HMNZS Canterbury is too big to fit into Calliope Dock, is this true, if so where would the Navy take her when she needs docking?

Official answer is per Parlimentary Questions and answers:Yes!
14501 (2007). Dr Wayne Mapp to the Minister of Defence (17 Aug 2007): Does the HMNZS Canterbury fit naval servicing dry docks in New Zealand; if not, what servicing dry dock facilities does the Navy intend to use for HMNZS Canterbury?
Hon Phil Goff (Minister of Defence) replied: HMNZS Canterbury does not fit the naval servicing dry dock in New Zealand, and that this would be the case was known from the earliest stages of Project Protector. In-water hull surveys will reduce the requirement for the ship to enter dry dock for maintenance and survey to about once every five years. Such surveys will be conducted at overseas commercial facilities, probably in Australia or Singapore.

There was a proposal to build a floating dock which never flew as it was viewed by the locals to be to intrusive re the visage that Devonport(a very scenic part of the Auckland harbour) has.The floating dock I am told would have accommodated Canterbury and as outlined above was known at the outset, it was no longer an option any more at that point.

 

[Stuart Mackey]

Official answer is per Parlimentary Questions and answers:Yes!
snip

I would have been surprised if the ship did not as the dock was modified in the 1930's to take cruisers larger than the Leander's.

 

[recce.k1]

I would have been surprised if the ship did not as the dock was modified in the 1930's to take cruisers larger than the Leander's.

I think someone here stated previously that the "stepped" nature of the dock was the problem - in relation to Canterbury's 18m beam (and boxed shape)? Perhaps someone in the know can clarify. Perhaps also could some dock steps be removed?

How realistic is it that the Devonport residents could stop a proposed floating dock? Or was it simply the Govt couldn't see the need to fund it (low priority etc)?

Pitty the 20,000t(?) floating dock in Wellington harbour was sold (and sank en-route to its overseas owners) in the 1980's.

Wasn't there a plan in the 1970's/80's to relocate the Navy to Whangarei? Would this idea be worth revisiting? Or again is it simply that the Govt doesn't want to invest a couple of hunded million plus in something when it's cheaper to have the Navy make do?

 

[recce.k1]

RNZN visit China. PLAN visit NZ!

Flying the flag in China
REBECCA PALMER - The Dominion Post | Monday, 15 October 2007
http://www.stuff.co.nz/4237448a23917.html

As Chinese navy ships tied up in Wellington, Kiwi frigate Te Kaha was berthed at the People's Liberation Army Navy wharf in Shanghai.

Te Kaha is spending five days in the city, part of a four-month operational and exercise period in Australia and Southeast Asia. The Royal New Zealand Navy first visited Shanghai in 1987.

After leaving the city, the 118-metre frigate will travel south to Zhanjiang and carry out a "short exercise" with a similar-sized ship from the People's Liberation Army Navy.

Te Kaha's captain, Commander Andy Grant, said such exercises, though not the first between the two countries, were important to the military relationship.

"It's not a big deal in terms of how complex it is or how difficult it is for us to do, but it is a big deal in our growing relationship with them. It's another little advance in the relationship."

Meanwhile, two PLA navy ships have been visiting New Zealand. The destroyer Haerbin and tanker Hongzehu will leave Wellington today."It's interesting in all the places in the world and all of the things that could be happening, that right now there's Chinese warships in New Zealand and there's a New Zealand warship in China," Commander Grant said.

"It underlines the fact that the relationship is important both ways and the level of engagement is quite high both ways."

Asked whether he thought Kiwis were aware of the extent of the relationship between the two countries, he replied: "New Zealanders in general are not aware of what their military forces are doing. It's not a big part of the New Zealand psyche.

"We get a lot of delegations from the Chinese armed forces coming to New Zealand, but I don't think that's generally well-known."

However, he believed there was a growing awareness of what the military was up to. High-profile operations like East Timor and New Zealand's involvement in Operation Enduring Freedom in Afghanistan had raised the profile.

On this deployment, Te Kaha has also visited ports in Australia, Malaysia and Japan and carried out joint exercises with those countries' navies. "We exercise with just about every regional navy that's around here."

Crew played a key role in New Zealand diplomacy. On Friday night, Chinese and Kiwi guests attended a function on board and were treated to barbecued meats and New Zealand wines and beers. The Chinese guests took away Tourism New Zealand promotional materials, including a map of New Zealand and Living Nature lip balm.

"Most ports, we have what you call defence diplomacy," Commander Grant says. "It's a melding of military and civil diplomacy. We will generally co-host a function with the embassy."

He saw the ship's 177 crew as ambassadors. Te Kaha's Maori cultural group was to perform in Shanghai. "If you look at the Maori cultural group, it's a nice little metaphor for New Zealand. There's Maori, there's Europeans, men and women."

Then there's the rugby. In most ports, the crew will compete against a team from the host navy. They did not manage to organise a game in China, but last month a PLA rugby team visited New Zealand, playing against teams in the air force, army and navy.

Commander Grant was also looking forward to shopping at Shanghai's massive Ikea store, apparently a must-do activity at any port that has a branch of the Swedish furniture chain.

He has captained the ship since January last year and will "hand it over" next January to begin a shore-based leadership position.

"This is my last deployment, which is kind of sad really. This is the pinnacle of your career. To have captained a frigate is as good as it gets in the New Zealand Navy, I think."

But he will be able to spend more time with his family. This deployment meant he missed out on his five-year-old starting school.

The navy looks set to return to Shanghai soon. New Zealand Maritime Component Commander Commodore David Anson, who was in Shanghai, indicated a ship was likely to visit for the World Expo in 2010. Commander Grant said: "Considering New Zealand has only two frigates that really do the bulk of this type of engagement, to say that in two years we'll be back, that's big. There's no doubt that New Zealand is wishing to grow its relationship with China - there's no doubt in all facets. Military is just one of those building blocks."

 

[Stuart Mackey]

snip

How realistic is it that the Devonport residents could stop a proposed floating dock? Or was it simply the Govt couldn't see the need to fund it (low priority etc)?

Pretty good chance, election year coming up and would it be worth the hassle going through the resource management process when there is no real need?

snip
Wasn't there a plan in the 1970's/80's to relocate the Navy to Whangarei? Would this idea be worth revisiting? Or again is it simply that the Govt doesn't want to invest a couple of hunded million plus in something when it's cheaper to have the Navy make do?

That issue came up a few years back iirc, it wont happen as there really is no need for it given the size of the navy and the cost of relocation and building a whole new base.

 

[recce.k1]

Pretty good chance, election year coming up and would it be worth the hassle going through the resource management process when there is no real need?

Good point, I forgot about the Resource Management Act. In its present form the residents would probably win or perhaps could try and drag this out for years!

So maybe the win-win solution is to widen the existing dock? Shouldn't affect the residents (and they may get to see some interesting ships pointing into their living rooms)

Would allow VT to then tender for larger ship maintenance contracts? Another win-win for VT, the Navy (having commercial work also help justify the dock upgrade for their benefit) and the Govt (get some money back in fees and taxes etc)?

Who's the MP for North Shore, Wayne Mapp? Would he rather have money going into the pockets of the locals (wages, goods and services) or NZ dollars going off-shore (when the Canty refits)?

They might be saying 5 years between Canty refits but having access to a local dock might be useful if the ship gets damaged or repairs are needed to the rudder or loading doors etc. Could also be useful if Endeavour's replacement is a little larger too.